Tae Kwon Do or Aikido?

Cakes

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Do not take Aikido.

It's almost laughable as a martial art. Nearly every demonstration I have ever seen makes it appear to be more of a dance than anything - no intensity, nothing but compliant partners, etc.

TKD isn't known for quality either, but you're far more likely to luck out here. Of course, I have no idea why wouldn't just take Judo or Boxing, both of which are almost impossible to go wrong with.

Vausch said:
I'm trying to decide between Tae Kwon Do or Aikido. Tae Kwon Do looks like a great art with some very dynamic movements and kicks but what turns me away is that it's usually used as a sport style rather than the actual martial art style, IE self-defence (That is not to say sports cannot be used in self defence but my Karate teacher always told me not to go to places that refer to the art as a "Sport")
Why? In what way is this a problem?
 

SextusMaximus

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Vausch said:
SextusMaximus said:
Sucks you can't do muay thai, it's well worth it and absolutely brutal.
So I've seen. I'm trying to set something up with the college to see if they'll let me study at one of the off-campus places and still get credit for doing so, otherwise I'll have to just put it on the backburner for a while.
Well if it helps, Joe Rogan took TKD waaay before getting in to Muay Thai, but I also know that he thought it was a waste, but as far as I can tell it's the better of two options. Plus, it'll give you a hell of an advantage starting out muay thai as far as kicking goes.
 

Marik2

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Vausch said:
They cancelled it after 2 seasons at 16 episodes. Discovery picked up a similar show called Fight Quest that went into different arts but was essentially the same thing (Savate was a favourite episode, I had no idea the French had a martial art!).
Gonna look for that Discovery channel show now, seems interesting.

And wow I didn't know the French(let alone Europeans) have a martial art :O
 

el_kabong

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Yay! Something besides gaming that I love on these forums.

As a student of the martial arts, I have to say that I, personally, would go for Aikido. Unfortunately, Tae Kwon Do is really difficult to find a decent school. Most simply run the TKD Nation basics/tests. This usually means that you get a black belt in about 3 years if you're a competent martial artist.

However, because of the emphasis on sport that you mentioned, TKD has never appealed to me because it teaches bad habits if the student is ever in a real fight. I will use an example that I've seen. I used to study at a school that was largely based in Goju-ryu karate (for the basics) and Animal Kung Fu (for advanced techniques). When we would spar, we do so full contact (protective gear used, of course) and we go until the round is over or until someone gets hurt (usually didn't happen). In TKD schools, they usually spar for points and break when a point is scored.

We had a 2nd degree black belt from the TKD school visiting because he was considering joining to add to his martial arts repertoire. His first night, he wanted to spar. The man was a talented martial artist, so we matched him to a senior class member (not yet a black belt by our standards). It was a pretty defensive fight for a while. Then, the TKD black belt landed a nice punch. Because he was so used to breaking after contact, he turned his back on the student from our school, who proceeded to punch him in the back of the head (he was anticipating a spin kick and was intercepting). Needless to say, the TKD found himself on the floor and the fight was over.

The way you train is the way you fight. TKD usually emphasized high kicks, low punches, breaking after contact, and spinning flourishes...all of which are usually terrible ideas in an actual fight. It's a great art and people need great balance to do it, but the bad habits it teaches and emphasizes just aren't worth it for me.
 

Vausch

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Cakes said:
Do not take Aikido.

It's almost laughable as a martial art. Nearly every demonstration I have ever seen makes it appear to be more of a dance than anything - no intensity, nothing but compliant partners, etc.

TKD isn't known for quality either, but you're far more likely to luck out here. Of course, I have no idea why wouldn't just take Judo or Boxing, both of which are almost impossible to go wrong with.

Vausch said:
I'm trying to decide between Tae Kwon Do or Aikido. Tae Kwon Do looks like a great art with some very dynamic movements and kicks but what turns me away is that it's usually used as a sport style rather than the actual martial art style, IE self-defence (That is not to say sports cannot be used in self defence but my Karate teacher always told me not to go to places that refer to the art as a "Sport")
Why? In what way is this a problem?
That's because often in the demonstrations the people attacking have studied as well and go along with the motion of the attack, if they didn't they would have their limbs broken very easily. I haven't studied Aikido but my sensei had us learn the strengths and weaknesses of other martial arts if we decided to enter tournaments, and let me tell you if you aren't "compliant", you'll be in a world of hurt.

Judo is full and boxing doesn't do well in a standard fight because you're used to your hands being wrapped and your fists never fully develop into a proper weapon. My index and middle knuckle are heavily overdeveloped and callused to the point I can leave an indent in something I punch and not feel it.

It's a problem because I practice the art for the art and for self defence, not for sport. In sports, you follow rules. In a real fight, you want to make them dead because they may want you dead.
 

Vausch

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Marik2 said:
Vausch said:
They cancelled it after 2 seasons at 16 episodes. Discovery picked up a similar show called Fight Quest that went into different arts but was essentially the same thing (Savate was a favourite episode, I had no idea the French had a martial art!).
Gonna look for that Discovery channel show now, seems interesting.

And wow I didn't know the French(let alone Europeans) have a martial art :O
It got cancelled after 13 episodes. Go figure |D They didn't go as in depth with the CGI breakdowns and the physics of it all but they did go into some pretty good slo-mo to get the techniques across.
 

Vausch

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SextusMaximus said:
Vausch said:
SextusMaximus said:
Sucks you can't do muay thai, it's well worth it and absolutely brutal.
So I've seen. I'm trying to set something up with the college to see if they'll let me study at one of the off-campus places and still get credit for doing so, otherwise I'll have to just put it on the backburner for a while.
Well if it helps, Joe Rogan took TKD waaay before getting in to Muay Thai, but I also know that he thought it was a waste, but as far as I can tell it's the better of two options. Plus, it'll give you a hell of an advantage starting out muay thai as far as kicking goes.
I was able to shuffle my schedule around so I can take both now, I can figure out which is preferred for a while and get the excuse to practice, then switch off to Muay Thai later.
 

Vausch

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el_kabong said:
Yay! Something besides gaming that I love on these forums.

As a student of the martial arts, I have to say that I, personally, would go for Aikido. Unfortunately, Tae Kwon Do is really difficult to find a decent school. Most simply run the TKD Nation basics/tests. This usually means that you get a black belt in about 3 years if you're a competent martial artist.

However, because of the emphasis on sport that you mentioned, TKD has never appealed to me because it teaches bad habits if the student is ever in a real fight. I will use an example that I've seen. I used to study at a school that was largely based in Goju-ryu karate (for the basics) and Animal Kung Fu (for advanced techniques). When we would spar, we do so full contact (protective gear used, of course) and we go until the round is over or until someone gets hurt (usually didn't happen). In TKD schools, they usually spar for points and break when a point is scored.

We had a 2nd degree black belt from the TKD school visiting because he was considering joining to add to his martial arts repertoire. His first night, he wanted to spar. The man was a talented martial artist, so we matched him to a senior class member (not yet a black belt by our standards). It was a pretty defensive fight for a while. Then, the TKD black belt landed a nice punch. Because he was so used to breaking after contact, he turned his back on the student from our school, who proceeded to punch him in the back of the head (he was anticipating a spin kick and was intercepting). Needless to say, the TKD found himself on the floor and the fight was over.

The way you train is the way you fight. TKD usually emphasized high kicks, low punches, breaking after contact, and spinning flourishes...all of which are usually terrible ideas in an actual fight. It's a great art and people need great balance to do it, but the bad habits it teaches and emphasizes just aren't worth it for me.
There really need to be more places that teach Tang Soo Do instead, all the flexibility and dynamics of Tae Kwon Do but with a splash of brutality and none of that sports emphasis.
 

Mr.Swiggly

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I have been taking Tae Kwon Do for about 6 years now and have found it great. I would certainly recommend it.

BUT if you want to TKD then you have to find the right school which can be hard. For instance the Master at my school is a 7th Degree black belt from Korea so he knows what up. We learn alot things like several self defense techniqes and we also do plenty of sparring, and no we don't just turn away when thr fight is over but when the instructor tells us it is over. We also spend alot of time just stretching and exercising and sometimes it can be brutal. We need to be shape. We also learn Poomsae's and practice alot of kicking.

Again the most important thing to find is a good school, because alot of them do not teach real TKD and can be really useless.

Another thing, as I've said I've been in Tae Kwon Do for 6 years, and am not yet a black belt. I'm close but not yet. My Master makes his students work for black belts. If you get one after only three year you might not be at a very good school.
 

Zhukov

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I wouldn't recommend Aikido.

They have this whole non-competative philosophy thing. In practise, it means you never get to spar or practise outside of drills.
 

loc978

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Tae Kwon Do is apparently very fun, according to a friend of mine. Useless in the real world though, and it shows when we spar.

as for
Grenge Di Origin said:
So, what is a "McDojo"
here's an exaggeration of all the hallmarks:
 

spartan231490

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Vausch said:
I studied Bujin-Ryu Karate for 8 years but I'm planning a move soon and didn't want to stick with the same art since I'd rather finish under my current sensei if I had to. The place I'm moving to has several dojos I checked out and after searching about them I found most of them were actually accredited and the teachers were very good, so they weren't McDojos.

I'm trying to decide between Tae Kwon Do or Aikido. Tae Kwon Do looks like a great art with some very dynamic movements and kicks but what turns me away is that it's usually used as a sport style rather than the actual martial art style, IE self-defence (That is not to say sports cannot be used in self defence but my Karate teacher always told me not to go to places that refer to the art as a "Sport") while Aikido is also of interest to me for the throws and grapples it practices.

If I had my way I'd be looking for Muay Thai or Pencak Silat but neither of those are available at the college I'm going to.

Anyone studied one or both styles and think they could offer some first-hand insight?
Don't just look at the college you're going to. Look at nearby colleges and just MA styles in the area. My college only offered Aikido(Which I hate because I don't like grapples or ground work, but more on that later), but a nearby college offered MMA and straight-up self-defense, and there was a Tae Kwan Doe School in the area. That said, I don't think self-defense should be your focus right now. Frankly, if 8 years of karate isn't enough self-defense, 4 years of whatever martial art you find catering mostly to college students won't be either.

I think this comes down to whether you like strikes or grapples(strikes go Tae Kwon Doe, grapples go Aikido). I personally hate grapples because if you're attacked by 3 guys grappling one is a good way to get kicked while you're down by the other two, but this is mostly a preference thing. Strikes fit my nature, so I would never practice say Aikido or Pancration because they're too grapple focused. While I would like to practice some grappling techniches to cover that weakness in my Marital Arts education, in an RL situation grapples are about as far from ideal for me as being shot at from 300 yards.

I do think that Tae Kwon Doe will go better with what you know now since it's a close cousin of karate, most Tae Kwon Doe styles have some karate mixed in, point of fact(mine does).

Now, beyond theory and onto first-hand stuff. I am a relatively recent member of a Tae Kwon Do style(it's an off-branch common only to North Eastern US, and I love it. If I had the option, I'd rather be doing Muy Thai, or Krav Maga, but my school is a lot of fun. As I said, my instinct is strikes, even if I'm already in a grapple, I'm more likely to pull an opponent into a hard knee than I am to throw him(not to say I don't know throws, as the assistant instructor at my class learned the hard way, funny story), I just prefer the distance and versatility offered by strikes.

Truth be told, I wouldn't recommend my school for someone who's primary goal was self-defense, 90% of what we are taught for self-defense is pain compliance, which I am wary of in the best of circumstances, let alone a real self-defense, but that's a product of the demographic of the school. Well over 3/4 of the school is made up of young people who don't have enough strength to pull of most techniques that aren't pain compliance. However, it's a great school if you are focusing on getting in shape, mental discipline, or sparring(once both sides know a fight is coming, as opposed to self-defense where you hope to have element of surprise).

Like I said, I think the decision you need to make is grapple(aikido) vs strike(Tae Kwon Do). Neither one of them is going to teach you much in the way of actual self defense that wasn't covered by 8 years of karate, the're either going to refine you're striking technique or your grappling technique.

If you want my opinion on which to go with, I suggest Tae Kwon Do, simply because trying to out-grapple 3 opponents is a fool's errand, but with strikes it becomes possible. Further, if you're grappling an opponent and they pull a knife simply falling on it(common in grapples) could be life-threatening. Grapples are also dangerous when rolling around could put you in the path of cars or who knows what.

Anyway, that's my $0.02, for whatever it's worth to you.
 

Vausch

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loc978 said:
Tae Kwon Do is apparently very fun, according to a friend of mine. Useless in the real world though, and it shows when we spar.

as for
Grenge Di Origin said:
So, what is a "McDojo"
here's an exaggeration of all the hallmarks:
I forgot about that part XD Perfect example.
 

Cakes

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Vausch said:
I haven't studied Aikido but my sensei had us learn the strengths and weaknesses of other martial arts if we decided to enter tournaments, and let me tell you if you aren't "compliant", you'll be in a world of hurt.
Great excuse for unrealistic training. How will you ever know what an actual fight would be like, if you don't train against resisting opponents?

It's a problem because I practice the art for the art and for self defence, not for sport. In sports, you follow rules. In a real fight, you want to make them dead because they may want you dead.
Yeah...this is ridiculous. For one thing, how do you have any idea your "deadly" moves can actually do anything? It's not like you've ever executed them in a way even remotely realistic. And no, you really do not want them dead. If some drunk throws a punch, you do have the right to defend yourself, but if you end up maiming the guy (or killing him, which apparently you think is necessary) you're likely to end up in a world of trouble with the police.
 

NightHawk21

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I would suggest you ignore both of those and do Judo. Its the only one I have experience with, but the training is intense (as in the pre-workout warm up), and the fighting can escalate pretty quickly if you and your partner are evenly matched with both of you employing proper resistance and such.

I would shy away from akido since it seems to be a more structured form of Judo really. The same principles still apply, but I'll let you know that kata in any extent (which I foresee a lot of akido being) is bad as any sort of self defense training.

TKD on the other hand is susceptible to the same problem as Karate and you'll find a lot of these McDojo's where you can probably earn a black belt over the summer.

Judo gives you the best of both worlds IMO. You get some kata, and you do a lot of actual fighting, where you don't stop as soon as someone touches you. Plus as an added benefit, being that the sport is so widely practiced with any luck you'll be in a club with some international fighters who can teach you. My club was pretty small (only 1 location), but we had probably about 10-20 people that regularly competed internationally and some that competed on the Olympic level.
 

Vausch

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Cakes said:
Vausch said:
I haven't studied Aikido but my sensei had us learn the strengths and weaknesses of other martial arts if we decided to enter tournaments, and let me tell you if you aren't "compliant", you'll be in a world of hurt.
Great excuse for unrealistic training. How will you ever know what an actual fight would be like, if you don't train against resisting opponents?

It's a problem because I practice the art for the art and for self defence, not for sport. In sports, you follow rules. In a real fight, you want to make them dead because they may want you dead.
Yeah...this is ridiculous. For one thing, how do you have any idea your "deadly" moves can actually do anything? It's not like you've ever executed them in a way even remotely realistic. And no, you really do not want them dead. If some drunk throws a punch, you do have the right to defend yourself, but if you end up maiming the guy (or killing him, which apparently you think is necessary) you're likely to end up in a world of trouble with the police.
For one thing he had us do something similar as well. Students that didn't move with the flow of an attack found themselves on the floor and often in much more pain than those that knew how to move with the attack. He taught us to both train and resist as if we knew how and as if we were some git trying to pick a fight. You can learn both, and if the school is good they'll teach you without having total compliance to the attack.

Yes I have. I've gotten into fights where I've crushed a person's face with one hit, I've broken concrete, and again my sensei had us practice in the most realistic scenarios including at least 20 different angles a person would try to stab you from. And yes, if a person is trying to attack you and wishes you harm, you're well within your right to use deadly force to stop them. I don't think it's necessary but if someone comes after me with a knife or gun, I'm not holding back.
 

Amethyst Wind

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Personally I'd go for Tae Kwon Do, because I favour a kicking style, but it sounds like you've already made up your mind for Aikido for reasonable reasons.
 

antidonkey

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Of those two, I'd go with Aikido. It seems a bit more practical. Keep in mind that Aikido is the martial art of Steven Segal. If I were to get into something, it would be krav maga. It's mentality is a no nonsense, fuck the other person up approach. However, I'm old and fat.....and I own a gun.
 

DirtyJunkieScum

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I'd say go for Aikido out of the Two. I did full TKD for about 5 years and all the jumping and spinning and stuff didn't do my knees much good, although I had already damaged one prior to starting training. The instructor was also from a sulkido background so we did a lot of sulkido and self defence type stuff as part of the training...in fact if it wasn't for the patterns the grading would have had more sulkido in them than TKD.