Take our "Silent Hill" Quiz!

[Cyrus Hanley]

OK, fair enough, the question could have been worded better.

Yes, but what makes it WRONGER is that if you click the correct answer, it says you were incorrect. If anything, it would be Alessa or Both, not just cheryl.

I mean, through the whole Silent Hill 3, its Heather vs Alessa, because its ALESSA, not Heather vs Cheryl.

Heather's original name was Helen.

It's Alessa, the first name she was given in this lifetime was Cheryl which was then switched to Heather in order to hide her from the cult coming after her. HOWEVER! Heather says she still maintains memories from her past lives and as such means she is still Alessa and not just a reborn new life.

No shit, Sherlock.

However, during development, Heather's original name was Helen. [http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookpgs/Pg66-67SH3Character.jpg]

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

OK, fair enough, the question could have been worded better.

Yes, but what makes it WRONGER is that if you click the correct answer, it says you were incorrect. If anything, it would be Alessa or Both, not just cheryl.

I mean, through the whole Silent Hill 3, its Heather vs Alessa, because its ALESSA, not Heather vs Cheryl.

Heather's original name was Helen.

It's Alessa, the first name she was given in this lifetime was Cheryl which was then switched to Heather in order to hide her from the cult coming after her. HOWEVER! Heather says she still maintains memories from her past lives and as such means she is still Alessa and not just a reborn new life.

No shit, Sherlock.

However, during development, Heather's original name was Helen. [http://www.translatedmemories.com/bookpgs/Pg66-67SH3Character.jpg]

According to book of memories the worst thing in the world to go to for Silent Hill information. Nowhere in the behind the scenes does it say that was an intent, also the author wrote "We" when nobody on the original team responsible for Sh3 wrote book of memories.

Just because you happen to dislike Book of Lost Memories doesn't mean it's not official.

I suppose you're one of those who also think that Origins, Homecoming, Shattered Memories and Downpour are blasphemous.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

And Shattered Memories wasn't bad it just wasn't Silent Hill.

What is it about Shattered Memories that doesn't make it a Silent Hill game and a "let down"?

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

And Shattered Memories wasn't bad it just wasn't Silent Hill.

What is it about Shattered Memories that doesn't make it a Silent Hill game and a "let down"?

Well once Alessa is erased from existence it doesn't make sense that there's an "Otherworld" this is due to the fact that it was her Psychic capabilities which created it.

You're forgetting that Shattered Memories takes place in a different universe to the main canon and that weird shit has been happening in Silent Hill for hundreds of years before Alessa was even born.

However if you were to argue that it's not actually real because Harry isn't real well then that still defies the rules of the series in that Maria who was created from James' Subconscious is not able to be seen by others or nor will ever appear in the presence of other people. (Shattered Memories Harry broke both of these rules).

The events of the game where you control Harry through Silent Hill are a product of Cheryl's mind. This includes the people you meet.

Did you even play the game?

As for the actual game it just isn't scary at all nor does it even try to be.

That's disputable. I was way more scared of the Raw Shocks than I ever was of Lying Figures and Bubble Head Nurses.

It's mechanics don't make sense:

1. Hiding doesn't work at all in the rare chance that you hide while the enemy doesn't see you they just end up going in and out of the same room with no chance to get away thus giving you no advantage for doing so. And that's the rare chance most of the time they come right up to where you're hiding and pull you right out.

2. Dropping flares presents no tactical advantage what-so-ever with the exception of the one time you need to buy time to take pictures.

Those alone don't discount its validity as a Silent Hill game. Silent Hill 4: The Room had some bad gameplay mechanics but that doesn't mean it's not a Silent Hill game.

3. The map doesn't work at all it never shows anything other than streets and the shapes of buildings. And since the only time you'd need it would be to plan routes during the chase scenes (You know the only time the game isn't a straight line and it actually matters which way you go) it's even more worthless.

Why would you stop while monsters are chasing you to pull out a map and plot a route to your escape? Why don't you just, y'know, run?

4. There's 3 kinds of collectibles in the game (Mementos, Ghost photos, Phone numbers)
2 of which serve no purpose to the game at all and don't reward you in any way for collecting any amount of them. The last one just seems like a lazy way of telling story.

The lazy storytelling was in previous games where everything related to the story was in memos. In Shattered Memories, you can know as little or as much as you want. If you want to know more you go hunting for mementos rather than stumbling across hundreds of memos lying all over the place. If you don't care, you can just keep on trucking.

5. Lastly the story much like Homecoming's and Origin's is directly stolen from Silent Hill 2.
Someone died and thus someone else forgot. Also it made the same mistake as Homecoming in that it didn't even lead up to the point it waited till the very end, delivered the plot twist then just kinda ended without any repentance or remorse from the person who realized what happened and just decided to call it a day.

Travis didn't forget his childhood, he just didn't like talking about it. The events of Silent Hill: Origins forced him to face up to the fact that he had a shitty childhood and move on rather than sweep it under the carpet and pretend it didn't affect him. If you think that Travis forgot his childhood then you obviously haven't played the game.

If you think that Alex didn't show repentance or remorse for killing Joshua then you clearly didn't pay enough attention.


Note the part at 9:00 where Alex says, "I'm sorry, Josh. I never meant for this to happen."

He even apologises a second time at 9:45.

Not to mention the tone of his voice and the look on his face.

As for Cheryl, her ending and reaction to Dr. Kaufmann's therapy depends on the player's actions. If she didn't show remorse and enlightenment in your playthrough then that is your fault.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

You're forgetting that Shattered Memories takes place in a different universe to the main canon and that weird shit has been happening in Silent Hill for hundreds of years before Alessa was even born.

Exactly and thus it isn't a Silent Hill game.

Uh, what does it say on the box art? What does it say on the menu of the game? What does it say in the credits?

And "weird" stuff as in there was a strange cult which was also erased.

Nope, it wasn't erased. It was never there to begin with.

Shattered Memories has an alternate continuity that takes place in an alternate universe.

Either way it still doesn't explain the "Otherworld" which was created by Alessa's psychic abilities mixed with her split unconscious mind acting on it's own with the town's spiritual power.

So how do you explain Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill 4: The Room, Silent Hill: Homecoming and the upcoming Silent Hill: Downpour?

The events of the game where you control Harry through Silent Hill are a product of Cheryl's mind. This includes the people you meet.

Did you even play the game?

There is no indication that anyone in the town other than Harry is fake in fact people like Lisa, Cybil and Michelle all have a backstory showing that they existed long before Harry's sudden reanimation.

Yes, there is evidence that they existed when Harry was alive but that doesn't mean that their incarnations in Cheryl's delusions are real. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

That's disputable. I was way more scared of the Raw Shocks than I ever was of Lying Figures and Bubble Head Nurses.

Can't really say you're own feelings are wrong but I can say that half the game you're completely safe and you know it. And that I never died once except the one time I let them somewhere along my 4th of 5th play through just to see what would happen at which point I was ported to the beginning with no consequence at all.

So let's agree that we are scared by different things.

Those alone don't discount its validity as a Silent Hill game. Silent Hill 4: The Room had some bad gameplay mechanics but that doesn't mean it's not a Silent Hill game.

The only bad game play mechanic in 4 was that the golf clubs didn't get dropped when they broke nothing else was really wrong with that game.

There was also the inventory system and "charging" weapon attacks.

Why would you stop while monsters are chasing you to pull out a map and plot a route to your escape? Why don't you just, y'know, run?

I believe the proper question would be: Why is there a map if it's so worthless in both situations?

It's not worthless, you use it to navigate the game world when you're not in the Ice World.

The lazy storytelling was in previous games where everything related to the story was in memos. In Shattered Memories, you can know as little or as much as you want. If you want to know more you go hunting for mementos rather than stumbling across hundreds of memos lying all over the place. If you don't care, you can just keep on trucking.

No most of the story was delivered through interactions with the world I.E. what a character said when interacting with certain objects and examining items in your inventory. How they acted and presented themselves when talking with people in cut scenes. Only in Silent Hill 1 were memos such a huge part of the plot and that's fine because you were finding records of the cult mostly things which obviously Dahlia won't just be outright revealing to you.

Shattered Memories also delivered the story through interactions with the world like when objects are examined and Harry comments on them or how the characters interact with Harry.

Secondly mementos are one of the two collectibles that served no purpose I think you mean the echo photos and half of those were texts.

Mementos allude to details relevant to the story. For example, "A Winter Beacon" is a snow globe containing a lighthouse and a girl in red.

Travis didn't forget his childhood, he just didn't like talking about it. The events of Silent Hill: Origins forced him to face up to the fact that he had a shitty childhood and move on rather than sweep it under the carpet and pretend it didn't affect him. If you think that Travis forgot his childhood then you obviously haven't played the game.

If you think that Alex didn't show repentance or remorse for killing Joshua then you clearly didn't pay enough attention.


Note the part at 9:00 where Alex says, "I'm sorry, Josh. I never meant for this to happen."

He even apologises a second time at 9:45.

Not to mention the tone of his voice and the look on his face.

As for Cheryl, her ending and reaction to Dr. Kaufmann's therapy depends on the player's actions. If she didn't show remorse and enlightenment in your playthrough then that is your fault.

Yea there's my mom I accept the fact that I'm going to kill her.

Travis didn't kill his mother. He killed a monster that represented his mother.

Travis shows no real care at all towards what happens in Origins at all he shows no feelings towards anything other than the fact that he has to save Alessa for whatever reason.

He shows no care at all? He SAVED a child from a house fire at the risk of his own life when nobody else was around.

As for why he chose to look for Alessa after waking up in Silent Hill, he wanted to know if she survived.

There's also the fact that Origins doesn't tell the pre-story that came before Silent Hill 1 just what the writers thought was what happened.

Okay then, you tell me, what happened before Silent Hill?

As for Alex sorry josh, sorry. Now that I know I killed you I guess I'm good now I'm going to walk of with this chick and pretend this never happened.

You mean like the "Maria" ending in Silent Hill 2?

Or... if you read the notes the most likely ending is the hospital ending where Alex is still insane and blames his father (And apparently wheeler) for all his pain and still completely denies killing Josh or that he's even dead at all.

He denies being responsible for Joshua's death because he's insane.

(Talking about the best ending here) Cheryl's in Shattered Memories (And this one is my favorite due to the complete lack of story flow) Immediately gets over Harry after saying goodbye and then forgives her mom just as quick Whom she blamed for Harry's death for 18 years! Because now that she knows everything's fine right?

We don't know what happens after Shattered Memories. She could just as easily relapse, like Andrew Laeddis in Shutter Island.

The same thing happened in all 3 I know now so I'll give a quick word in passing to the person I just killed, AGAIN and now I'll just get over it.

Travis and Cheryl never killed anyone. Yes, Alex was responsible for Joshua's death, but he repented and made peace. Just like James in the "Leave" ending of Silent Hill 2.

In Silent Hill 2 about 80% of the game was to James finding the answers and the last segment was to him venting his feelings and coming to terms with it. The moment he kills Eddie is most likely when he realizes it due to his "I killed a.. a human being" line. We as the player learn at the video. Not that it matters even if he truly did realize it at the video there's still a large segment of what he feels after the fact.

Travis and Cheryl never killed anyone during the course of their respective games. Alex was delusional and still believed he was a soldier when he killed Order soldiers who were trying to kill him, there was no reason for him to freak out about killing people when he had supposedly been doing it for four years.

The other thing is in Homecoming and Shattered Memories I knew the twist was going to happen long before it happened. Homecoming I knew by the time they were showing trailers.

Good for you then.

Shattered Memories I thought Cheryl was dead not Harry so I didn't know till the very end by guess what That's not how it should go if there's nothing that foreshadows the plot twist there is no plot, or rather there's a plot that's just thrown out the window for another plot given in the last seconds which never develops.

There are inconsistencies that can be discovered in Cheryl's fantasy world, including her supposed age and the fact that she doesn't live at 1206 Levin Street.

 

[Anodos]

Heather's original name was Helen.

lol you coitusing with us?


also, THIS TEST IS A PHONY. A BIG PHONY

I want my money back.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

Uh, what does it say on the box art? What does it say on the menu of the game? What does it say in the credits?

That is the most ignorant thing you've said so far. Those comics are good Silent Hill material... Really?

I never claimed that the Silent Hill comic books were good material. You're jumping to conclusions.

Shattered Memories has an alternate continuity that takes place in an alternate universe.

Oh is that how it works? Therefore it's allowed to break every single bit of lore the series to this point worked up to without maintaining any rules themes or structure of the previous titles.

Shattered Memories doesn't break any bit of lore established in previous Silent Hill games because it takes place in an ALTERNATE CONTINUITY in an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE.

If you can't comprehend that simple concept then I question whether you truly understand the more complex ones. As for rules and structures, yes Shattered Memories most certainly does bend them but it kept the theme of the series intact while doing so.

And while doing so can also have NOTHING to do with Silent Hill other than some people who share some names?

How does Shattered Memories have nothing to do with Silent Hill? On the contrary, it has a lot to do with Silent Hill.

So how do you explain Silent Hill 2, Silent Hill 4: The Room, Silent Hill: Homecoming and the upcoming Silent Hill: Downpour?

One, I don't explain anything about Homecoming that game didn't make sense. Two, in the worlds of Silent Hill 2 and 4 Alessa existed in shattered memories she was erased.

For the last time, Alessa wasn't "erased" from the Shattered Memories universe. She never existed in it to begin with.

As for 2 and 4, what does Alessa have to do with those games? Nothing.

Yes, there is evidence that they existed when Harry was alive but that doesn't mean that their incarnations in Cheryl's delusions are real. In fact, it suggests the opposite.

Nope Cybil checked the records and found that Harry Mason died when he really died thus she exists in current time. Also even if she didn't I said nothing INDICATES that's the case so either way you're wrong or you're making stuff up.

Or you can't read between the lines.

Everything that happened from the moment that Harry climbed out of that car crash to the part you mentioned where Cybil says he's dead is all a figment of Cheryl's imagination. Cybil knows when Harry died because Cheryl knows when Harry died. Harry, Cybil and every other person met on Harry's journey through Silent Hill is fictitious. Even though they may be based on people Cheryl has met or seen (Michelle and Lisa), they're still fictitious representations just like Harry.

If you can't understand that then maybe the Silent Hill series isn't for you.

There was also the inventory system and "charging" weapon attacks.

No, those mechanics worked and made sense. Whether you liked them or not is a different story

Just like the mechanics in Shattered Memories?

It's not worthless, you use it to navigate the game world when you're not in the Ice World.

It's absolutely worthless the Normal reality is linear. And in the times when it's not it doesn't matter which way you go you end up in the same place either way.

That's where the map comes in.

Instead of wandering around blindly, you can go straight to your destination.

Shattered Memories also delivered the story through interactions with the world like when objects are examined and Harry comments on them or how the characters interact with Harry.

No, In shattered memories everything was delivered through notes. And much like Homecoming the cutscenes don't develop the plot at all they just have the protagonist asking where the person they're looking for is with no hint or answer at all until the end when it's all revealed at once through dialogue. They copied Silent Hill 2 and did it very poorly, no story arcs, flows or progression of any kind.

Why would Harry ever doubt his own existence?

Mementos allude to details relevant to the story. For example, "A Winter Beacon" is a snow globe containing a lighthouse and a girl in red.

Okay, you didn't explain it's meaning. I mean I know what it's saying but it's still not any kind of expansion on the story in any way at all.

Well, it kinda is. You have to have played the game at least once to understand the meaning behind the mementos.

Travis didn't kill his mother. He killed a monster that represented his mother.

No it was his mom reanimated by the town and his subconscious. It had her consciousness as did his dad's and Leonard from Silent Hill 3.

Do you have any proof of that?

He also shows no regret or any emotion towards the action, and then starts yelling at Alessa like he does after all bosses.

Why should he show regret or emotion for killing monsters based on his parents that were trying to kill him? That makes no sense.

He shows no care at all? He SAVED a child from a house fire at the risk of his own life when nobody else was around.

As for why he chose to look for Alessa after waking up in Silent Hill, he wanted to know if she survived.

Travis is a blank slate like I said he knows he has to save Alessa for some reason.

He saved Alessa because he saw a burning house and heard a little girl scream. That's the reason.

He really has nothing driving him at all, he's just kinda being the good samaritan.

Have you considered that his shitty childhood was what caused him to investigate Alessa's condition to make sure she wasn't suffering the same?

He's even more emotionless than James who's had an excuse of being a depressed alcoholic thinking that maybe his life wouldn't suck so much if his wife wasn't really dead.

You're forgetting that Travis' life sucked too. His mother tried to gas him and herself and was committed to a sanitarium while his father pretended that she was dead and then hanged himself.

Not to mention he can't sleep well and his work colleagues call him a "messed-up son of a *****".

Okay then, you tell me, what happened before Silent Hill?

Silent Hill 1 explains it through it's memos and due to HUGE misinterpretations Origins was bound to fail. Such as Alessa being an evil girl bent on revenge for what the cult did to her

It's not inconceivable that she would be mad (or even just emotional) that her mother and a bunch of fanatical cultists just tried to burn her to death. Some (not me) argue that Alessa was already an evil girl bent on revenge in Silent Hill and Origins just amplified that.

The Alessa we see in Silent Hill is also significantly older - twice her age in fact, it's plausible that she would have mellowed out and matured.

(Which is contradicting in the beginning anyway when she tells Travis to leave her to die and then simultaneously helps extinguish the fires.)

I figured that Alessa saw no sense in the both of them dying when Travis said, "You're coming with me!"

Also what's going on with the two ritual scenes in the beginning and end of the game? The first one takes place on the 2nd floor of the building when Silent Hill 1 clearly states it's in the basement. The second portrays it in some egyptian temple (Which isn't there in Silent Hill 1 seriously where did that get shoved off to?) During neither of which is the cult trying to put the god into Alessa so she can birth it.

The other problem is there's 3 Alessas in origins there's the one walking around the one who was burned and then the one which split off into another baby at the end of origins. Silent Hill 1 and 3 make it very clear that there's only two. There's no way she can be walking the streets in origins if her soul hasn't been split yet.

I misjudged you, when it comes to the original Silent Hill you have it pretty down pat. I tip my hat to your background knowledge of that game.

Which also leads to the fact that the other world didn't exist until after her soul was split so how is Travis able to travel through it? Simply put, he can't.

But this I have contention with. Do you have a source that says the Otherworld (not just hers, but every subsequent Otherworld) was created by Alessa?

You mean like the "Maria" ending in Silent Hill 2?

Yeah but you're forgetting that the Leave ending in Homecoming is the only good one. And that Silent Hill 2's cannon endings are either Leave or In Water which is the closest we've come to a concrete ending for the game.

Silent Hill 2 only had one good ending as well.

He denies being responsible for Joshua's death because he's insane.

Exactly the cannon ending shows that the entire game was worthless, not that it ever served a point anyway.

It's not the canon ending, none of the endings have been confirmed as canon.

We don't know what happens after Shattered Memories. She could just as easily relapse, like Andrew Laeddis in Shutter Island.

No, there is nothing after she embraces her mother like nothing happened and they walk off, happy ending, game over. You're over-theorizing in order to fill the blanks that the game was to lazy to write not that you're version makes any sense.

Over-theorizing is what we do with Silent Hill games. It's the reason why people are still talking about Silent Hill 2 over a decade past its release. Silent Hill 2 left a lot of blanks, but it also left a lot of other material in the game just like Shattered Memories.

You can say the exact same thing about the "Maria" ending in Silent Hill 2 - James just walks away with Maria like nothing ever happened.

Travis and Cheryl never killed anyone during the course of their respective games. Alex was delusional and still believed he was a soldier when he killed Order soldiers who were trying to kill him, there was no reason for him to freak out about killing people when he had supposedly been doing it for four years.

I said that they re-killed them didn't say they were responsible for the original deaths.[/quote]
Re-killed who? The monsters that they manifest aren't real people, they may represent real people but they're not real people.

Also you should probably play origins again you're statement is wrong. No, he didn't kill anyone from the order it was all a dream.

I never said that Travis killed Order soldiers, I said that Alex killed Order soldiers.

And again you're over-theorizing to compensate for the lack of story telling this information isn't coming from the game, nor from the online diary that was the worst way possible of conveying the story.(Yea if you haven't read that you're missing like half the story which still has a ton of plot holes)

What were the plot holes (besides the obvious teleportation)?

There are inconsistencies that can be discovered in Cheryl's fantasy world, including her supposed age and the fact that she doesn't live at 1206 Levin Street.

She never said either of those,

Of course she didn't, I just told you they're discovered by Harry in Cheryl's fantasy world.

Harry did

Harry didn't "say" either of those, he discovered them.

because he was created from Cheryl's wishes I guess similarly to way Maria was but as we went over he doesn't fit into that logic either.

Why not? Is it because you don't want him to?

Not that he could because I've said it a bunch of times already: SILENT HILL CANNOT EXIST WITHOUT ALESSA EVER EXISTING.

Yes it can. Alessa didn't make Silent Hill supernatural, it had already been supernatural for years before she was ever born.

But that's beside the point, because Shattered Memories takes place in an ALTERNATE CONTINUITY in an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE.

And as we know Shattered Memories erased her from ever taking part in the events.

No it didn't. She never existed in that universe to begin with.

Nope, it wasn't erased. It was never there to begin with.

Shattered Memories has an alternate continuity that takes place in an alternate universe.

Nitpicking at my wording of her lack of existence? Wow.

You don't seem to understand that Alessa never existed in the Shattered Memories to begin with.

She didn't need to anyway, everything that the player experiences during Harry's journey in Silent Hill is a product of her mind. Including the Ice World.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

I'll be starting the game off today with this:
Erase
a : to remove from existence or memory as if by erasing
b : to nullify the effect or force of

You for some reason keep saying "No, she wasn't erased she was erased."

And I'll reply with what I posted before:

For the last time, Alessa wasn't "erased" from the Shattered Memories universe. She never existed in it to begin with.

You also have alot to disprove or reinforce with your next post choose your words wisely or you may lose this argument. Either way this has been fun but it's going to come to a close soon (Or at least part of it).

Yes, my patience is wearing thin with you.

Lastly I want to state that I don't hate SH:SM or Origins just that I don't accept them as true entries to the series.

What do you mean by "true entries to the series"? Canonical material?

Homecoming I hate and no not for it's combat that's the only thing I enjoy about that game it's mood themes and Continuity breaking is what I have a problem with. Anyway on to the game.

I didn't see any continuity breaks in Silent Hill: Homecoming, there was some pretty flimsy symbolism but no continuity breaks.

I never claimed that the Silent Hill comic books were good material. You're jumping to conclusions.

And I quote "Uh, what does it say on the box art? What does it say on the menu of the game? What does it say in the credits?" You can't use you're argument interchangeably where it benefits you the most it's one way or the other.

Let me demonstrate graphically what you're doing.

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/officespacekitmat.jpg/]

You said:

Exactly and thus it isn't a Silent Hill game.

I said:

Uh, what does it say on the box art? What does it say on the menu of the game? What does it say in the credits?

Then you said:

That is the most ignorant thing you've said so far. Those comics are good Silent Hill material... Really?

When I said that Shattered Memories was a Silent Hill game, you automatically respond with, "So you must think the comic books are good!"

Do you see the logical fallacy you've committed? If you don't, then this discussion can't go on.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

And I'll reply with what I posted before:

For the last time, Alessa wasn't "erased" from the Shattered Memories universe. She never existed in it to begin with.

I just explained to you what erased means. So yet again you've said she wasn't erased she was erased.

You can't erase something that never existed in the first place.

What do you mean by "true entries to the series"? Canonical material?

No I mean the ones by the original team who understands the lore of the series and don't just copy Silent Hill 2 and also don't treat Silent Hill 2 as a stand alone game that doesn't involve the cult.

Silent Hill 2 is a standalone game that doesn't involve the cult. You can understand it just fine without having to play Silent Hill: Origins, Silent Hill and Silent Hill 3.

In fact without the story told in Silent Hill 2 1 doesn't even make sense.

The first Silent Hill makes perfect sense on its own, you said it yourself that everything related to the story is there in memos.

I didn't see any continuity breaks in Silent Hill: Homecoming, there was some pretty flimsy symbolism but no continuity breaks.

It tried to act like Cybil's death was a confirmed thing, which it's obvious why they would think that they copied the shitty movie.

Nope, Wheeler just said that a police officer from Brahms disappeared in Silent Hill. You can go back and watch the cutscene if you like.

Henry made a similar comment in The Room, he mentions that Frank Sunderland's son and daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill. That doesn't mean that they died.

Also the right half of the map once you were in the town was completely off it didn't follow Silent Hill 1's shopping district and put a prison in where the mall was and disregarded the changes made in origins dropping half of it off into Toluca Lake which is to the south of the shopping district not the east.

I know all about that, in fact I wrote the article about it on the Silent Hill Wiki. Yeah, that was a dumb thing to do but it doesn't contradict anything.

There's a period of 31 years between Origins and Homecoming, which is enough for renovation and geographic changes within the town to have occurred (buildings being replaced and the shoreline of Toluca Lake receding inland). Heck, the last time we saw Central Silent Hill was in the first Silent Hill game which is still 24 years before Homecoming.

So, was putting a prison in Central Silent Hill and bringing in the shoreline of Toluca Lake a dumb thing to do? Yes. Does it break continuity? Nope.

I never claimed that the Silent Hill comic books were good material. You're jumping to conclusions.

And I quote "Uh, what does it say on the box art? What does it say on the menu of the game? What does it say in the credits?" You can't use you're argument interchangeably where it benefits you the most it's one way or the other.

I said that the comic books were Silent Hill material. I never said that they were any good.

The same goes for Homecoming, I said that it was a part of the series but I never said that it was good. In fact, I think it was pretty sub-standard.

Uh, what does it say on the box art? What does it say on the menu of the game? What does it say in the credits?

Then those comics are Silent Hill they say Silent Hill and have Konami's official seal of approval.

Yes they certainly do.

Silent Hill is a series about a town surrounded by a spiritual power bestowed upon the land by a Native American tribe. Due to a perverse spiritual belief the power took that form and allowed strange things to happen.

Exactly. Weird shit was happening before Alessa was ever burned. People were already starting to disappear from Silent Hill way back in 1890.

Shattered Memories is about a girl with repressed memories who is dealing with them. At the same time a completely unnecessary visual representation is going on in her mind. None of it is real nor does it have any meaning. It doesn't actually happen Harry is just a dot on a meter and when that meter gets to full she knows what happened, The monsters and ice are just a metaphor for her denying it and wanting her ideals to stay "frozen" as they are because she doesn't want to accept the truth.

I agree with everything you say above except for, "At the same time a completely unnecessary visual representation is going on in her mind."

How is it unnecessary?

These two plot summaries have no similarities at all other than some Easter Eggs and references.

They don't need to be similar to be a part of the same franchise. That's the beauty of it.

Oh and the fact that it copied Silent Hill 2 like the two games before it.

Origins didn't copy Silent Hill 2 and neither did Shattered Memories.

It is fair to say that Homecoming was extremely influenced by 2, but you cannot say that Origins and Shattered Memories copied 2.

When I said that Shattered Memories was a Silent Hill game, you automatically respond with, "So you must think the comic books are good!"

Do you see the logical fallacy you've committed? If you don't, then this discussion can't go on.

There is no fault on my behalf you decided that Shattered Memories can be considered a Silent Hill game because it's called Silent Hill. So therefore the comics are called Silent Hill so they must be expanding on the story somehow otherwise why would they be called that? Like I said you can't use your argument inconsistently where it benefits you.

I'm not the one using my arguments inconsistently, you're the one using my arguments inconsistently.

Before, you quoted me saying that Shattered Memories was a part of the franchise and replied with, "That is the most ignorant thing you've said so far. Those comics are good Silent Hill material... Really?"

Now you're quoting me again and saying that I deny the film and comic books are a part of the franchise. I don't deny that. I deny your claim [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.338646-Take-our-Silent-Hill-Quiz#13803983] that I think they're good. You're the one making the inconsistencies.

If you don't, then this discussion can't go on.

As for this it seems to just be a way for you to try and justify your quit because I've proven beyond a doubt that Origins and Shattered Memories can't exist and Homecoming was a losing battle as well for you.

No, you're just ignoring what I'm saying and only seeing what you want to see.

I didn't quit the argument, you forfeited when you started claiming that I thought the film adaption and comic books were good.

So you're acting like us seeing something from a different perspective allows you that out.

Nope.

However this whole thing has been us presenting different sides of something so that's a pretty half ass way of saying "I quit because I can't dispute the facts you've brought to the table".

I never quit. You forfeited when you started jumping to conclusions.

You didn't go past the intro of my post at all

That is correct. I didn't go past the introduction of your argument because you started saying that I thought the comic books were good Silent Hill material.

I never said that. I did say that I accepted them as part of the franchise but I never once said that I thought they were good.

I said choose your words wisely but you've just presented something laughable.

Your claims of me believing that the comic books are good Silent Hill material are laughable. Go back and read them, you jump to conclusions and then pretend that I never called you out on them.

I'll be starting the game off today with this:
Erase
a : to remove from existence or memory as if by erasing
b : to nullify the effect or force of

You for some reason keep saying "No, she wasn't erased she was erased."

In order for something to be erased, it has to exist first. Alessa Gillespie never existed at all in the Shattered Memories universe to begin with, ergo she wasn't erased.

Lastly I want to state that I don't hate SH:SM or Origins just that I don't accept them as true entries to the series.

What would make them "true" entries to the series? If they had been developed by Team Silent, would you consider them to be "true" entries?

Homecoming I hate and no not for it's combat that's the only thing I enjoy about that game it's mood themes and Continuity breaking is what I have a problem with. Anyway on to the game.

I'm glad that we both think that combat was not a problem, but Homecoming doesn't break any continuity.

I never claimed that the Silent Hill comic books were good material. You're jumping to conclusions.

And I quote "Uh, what does it say on the box art? What does it say on the menu of the game? What does it say in the credits?" You can't use you're argument interchangeably where it benefits you the most it's one way or the other.

And where exactly did I say that the Silent Hill comic books were good material? At least read what I've said before you quote me.

Shattered Memories has an alternate continuity that takes place in an alternate universe.

Shattered Memories doesn't break any bit of lore established in previous Silent Hill games because it takes place in an ALTERNATE CONTINUITY in an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE.

If you can't comprehend that simple concept then I question whether you truly understand the more complex ones. As for rules and structures, yes Shattered Memories most certainly does bend them but it kept the theme of the series intact while doing so.

How does Shattered Memories have nothing to do with Silent Hill? On the contrary, it has a lot to do with Silent Hill.

Okay I've explained this multiple times. No cult = the town's spiritual power never being tainted = Alessa's psychic powers to project and solidify that perverse spiritual power. Therefore no otherworld.

People have been disappearing from Silent Hill since 1890. How do you explain that?

It's not alternate. Alternate would mean it started in the same place with the same rules but either happens differently or is told differently.

Alternate continuities generally don't follow the main continuity. That's why they're called "alternate".

Shattered memories breaks every rule established in Silent Hill and as such is not as Silent Hill game it doesn't fit in. Either way it doesn't follow the rules and it doesn't even take place with the same characters that isn't Harry Mason that is a guy NAMED Harry Mason

I've already explained to you why Shattered Memories doesn't fit in with the main continuity, it's set in an alternate continuity in an alternate universe.

Sure, it's not canon, but that still doesn't mean it's not Silent Hill.

For the last time, Alessa wasn't "erased" from the Shattered Memories universe. She never existed in it to begin with.

What? Do you know what erased means? I didn't say she was killed I didn't say someone locked her in a closet I said she was erased. Removed from existence, you are really ignorant

People generally don't win arguments by calling the opposition "ignorant".

Or you can't read between the lines.

Everything that happened from the moment that Harry climbed out of that car crash to the part you mentioned where Cybil says he's dead is all a figment of Cheryl's imagination. Cybil knows when Harry died because Cheryl knows when Harry died. Harry, Cybil and every other person met on Harry's journey through Silent Hill is fictitious. Even though they may be based on people Cheryl has met or seen (Michelle and Lisa), they're still fictitious representations just like Harry.

If you can't understand that then maybe the Silent Hill series isn't for you.

Well first off this can't be explained by Silent Hill's nor Shattered memories rules. So therefore there's plot left out.

There's a different between "can't" and "wasn't".

Cybil, Michelle and Lisa's appearances in Cheryl's fantasy can be explained, they simply weren't explained in game because it was expected that you would be able to put two and two together to come up with four.

Second before you start mumbling about other things that are unexplainable in Silent Hill the only thing ever left out in 1-4 is in Silent Hill 1 whether the nurses are monsters or possessed nurses, this is ambiguous only because the growth are their back looks a lot like that on Cybil's back when she's possessed and due to the name "Puppet Nurses" it seems likely however it's left unexplained.

Actually I wasn't going to mention the Puppet Nurses or Cybil.

This series is definitely for me I'm not a fanboy who isn't willing to admit that the series went wrong and has a ton of plot holes.

Most of the "plot holes" you've come up with have been your misconceptions about the entire game.

For example, you actually believed that Harry's journey through Silent Hill was a real event. It's not my fault you can't understand the game.

If it isn't told directly in the game it's not proven, almost everything you've said seems to either be speculation or misunderstanding.

I have never speculated or misunderstood anything, on the contrary it is you who has speculated and misunderstood almost everything you have argued about.

Just like the mechanics in Shattered Memories?

Disregarding the map. The hiding system I've already explained was broken and poorly coded they either found you every time or they just went into an infinite loop where they would come in one way leave another and repeat in reverse. Either way the moment you went into hiding you set yourself up for a guaranteed grab.

Is it not conceivable that the Raw Shocks saw you hide in the closet in the first place? And why would they suddenly stop looking for you?

Why we're you not allowed to simply open doors in the real world when you knew there was no threat behind it? Oh that's right it was a broken mechanic and poor thought design on the programmers part. Every time you wanted to enter a room you had to hold forward after the first couple doors you weren't going to keep looking into the room.

How does Harry know that there's no threat behind it? And how is the mechanic broken? It let's you peek through doors before you open them, so it works perfectly fine.

You're going to be disappointed with Downpour because that exact same feature returns.

Also it didn't make sense to do it in the other world because you could see them through the door with the radio.

Harry's cell phone emits static when Raw Shocks are around and there are generally more than one in the Ice World, which complicates matters. They also come from all different directions, including the doors ahead of you.

Instead of wandering around blindly, you can go straight to your destination.

There was no wandering you walked straight every single time. Even when it split you ended up in the same place and there was no better decision at any of those intersections other than which puzzle did you want to do (Which you couldn't tell from the map but only from multiple playthroughs)

We must play differently then, because I examine every object in the game world even if it's not on the way to my supposed destination.

No, In shattered memories everything was delivered through notes.

Not everything.

And much like Homecoming the cutscenes don't develop the plot at all they just have the protagonist asking where the person they're looking for is with no hint or answer at all until the end when it's all revealed at once through dialogue.

Like Silent Hill 2?

They copied Silent Hill 2 and did it very poorly, no story arcs, flows or progression of any kind.

Shattered Memories didn't copy 2. It did have a story arc, flow and progression.

Why would Harry ever doubt his own existence?

That was non sequitur unless what you're trying to say is the only way for plot to evolve is for Harry to ask "Am I dead?" What?

You said, "And much like Homecoming the cutscenes don't develop the plot at all they just have the protagonist asking where the person they're looking for is with no hint or answer at all until the end when it's all revealed at once through dialogue."

And then I asked, "Why would Harry ever doubt his own existence?"

Well, it kinda is. You have to have played the game at least once to understand the meaning behind the mementos.

You still haven't explained this your argument is still invalid. Again I know what they represent it's just that they don't expand on the story at all. Cheryl's old toys foreshadowed these events?

Travis didn't kill his mother. He killed a monster that represented his mother.

No it was his mom reanimated by the town and his subconscious. It had her consciousness as did his dad's and Leonard from Silent Hill 3.

Do you have any proof of that?

Well here's the beauty of it that's not the position I've taken in this argument I'm discrediting origins I know that it's plot doesn't have anything to with the past of Silent Hill and that the rest of it is just a Silent Hill 2 knockoff told poorly. Saying that Travis just killed some monster is like saying James didn't really kill Mary a second time it was just a monster. James had a conversation with that "monster" thus easing his pain. Travis just killed it and walked off saying "Oh darn she died again."

Why should he show regret or emotion for killing monsters based on his parents that were trying to kill him? That makes no sense.

Whether representations of, or the real thing matters little to this point. The act of killing ones family should still be traumatizing. Unless you're insane which Travis is not shown to be. Again it copied Silent Hill 2 but did it poorly.

Have you considered that his shitty childhood was what caused him to investigate Alessa's condition to make sure she wasn't suffering the same?

The game doesn't hint at this at all so I'm putting this in the over speculation category.

You're forgetting that Travis' life sucked too. His mother tried to gas him and herself and was committed to a sanitarium while his father pretended that she was dead and then hanged himself.

Not to mention he can't sleep well and his work colleagues call him a "messed-up son of a *****".

One, messed up sonofabitch is just a title like sir or mister just less formal and more inbred hillbilly-ish. There's no hatred there at all they talked like friends. Two, Travis as I've said multiple times doesn't show depression or traumatized childhood, he shows no emotion at all.

It's not inconceivable that she would be mad (or even just emotional) that her mother and a bunch of fanatical cultists just tried to burn her to death. Some (not me) argue that Alessa was already an evil girl bent on revenge in Silent Hill and Origins just amplified that.

No Silent HIll 1 and 3 both show Alessa to be innately good and kind hearted.

And both of those games take place long after her immolation.

She stops the ritual and gets herself out of there prior to Silent Hill 1 There wasn't a trucker who came in and saved the day.

I thought we were arguing about whether or not Alessa was well-intentioned.

Also the Flauros in Origins is portrayed as a demon cage? That's not true it's a ward of evil not the source of it.

In origins the cult traps Alessa's power inside the Flauros and spreads it's pieces around the otherworld. There's multiple problems here.

I don't deny that there aren't problems.

This means that the multiple dimension theory is cannon here. To clarify the multiple dimension theory is one which states that the otherworld is in a parallel existence with the real world, I should also note that this idea isn't supported by anything silent hill 1-4 In 4 you're brought through versions of the real world that aren't connected to it but this isn't the otherworld this is Walter's memory. In 1 there is a single part where Harry is brought to something similar to have a talk with Lisa which is Alessa's mind it looks like the other world but that's only because the other world is Alessa's mind projected onto to the real world(You can tell based on a strange filter that it is neither the real nor otherworld). Prior to the movie this theory did not exist and that's because it isn't correct.

The multiple dimension theory is supported by Book of Lost Memories.

Also if there's still any doubts she didn't willingly spread the nightmare, Silent Hill 1's poltergeists memo proved this. These are her worst nightmares you think she would want that as a reality?

For Dahlia, probably.

However despite this Origins shows her forcibly willing her nightmare into reality. Which again Alessa shouldn't be roaming the town in origins because she hasn't split her soul yet and doesn't until the very end of the game. Also the other world didn't come into being until that happened as well as explained in Silent Hill 1.

Where does it explain in Silent Hill how the Otherworld came into being?

The Alessa we see in Silent Hill is also significantly older - twice her age in fact, it's plausible that she would have mellowed out and matured.

This doesn't explain anything what are you talking about? Also, over speculation.

Seven years is a long time. People change.

Which also leads to the fact that the other world didn't exist until after her soul was split so how is Travis able to travel through it? Simply put, he can't.

But this I have contention with. Do you have a source that says the Otherworld (not just hers, but every subsequent Otherworld) was created by Alessa?

The nightmare is one that tormented Alessa when she was [Half] impregnated with the demon due to a mix of that, her psychic abilities and her second half (Cheryl) now being used to spread the seal of Metatron all mixed together she accidentally spread the nightmare across the town.
From this point on when people are under heightened emotional stress the nightmare can seep into their minds and be projected Originally it could only be Alessa's mind but Silent Hill 2 shows that it can be another person's as well as the fact that when multiple people have their dreams projected in the same area there is a certain merging of dreams. Origins and Homecoming both have people showing up in each others nightmares without any real distinction to whom each part of the nightmare existed to. Ex: Silent hill 2 had James meet Eddie and Angela in the nightmare the areas overlapped you could see parts of both party's nightmare in the area they were in. This isn't the case for when he's with Maria because Maria is fake and part of James' nightmare she has no conscious mind of her own other than that of a dead Mary who comes in and out of consciousness and when she does also projects Mary's feelings.

That's not a source, that's an exposition.

Since the nightmare didn't exist until the impregnation which was shown in Origins both the mirror world in origins and the one Travis' mom saw years before Alessa was even born the otherworld cannot exist. The other thing is that in Silent Hill 1 when you first meet Kauffmann he explains how the monsters and the snow are a new phenomenon thus they couldn't have been around at the time of Origins unless he was lying which still doesn't explain the above issue of characters experiencing the Otherworld.

It wasn't snowing in Origins and we never see Kaufmann encounter any monsters.

Yeah but you're forgetting that the Leave ending in Homecoming is the only good one. And that Silent Hill 2's cannon endings are either Leave or In Water which is the closest we've come to a concrete ending for the game.

Silent Hill 2 only had one good ending as well.

Homecoming's only good ending still has no real facing up to what Alex did he walks off happy day, no coming to terms with it just "I know now so let's go I can immediately move on". James either accepts Mary's will and walks off with Laura or is too depressed to live with himself and what he did, either way he shows development based on what he's learned.

How is Alex walking away with Elle any different from James walking away with Laura?

He denies being responsible for Joshua's death because he's insane.

Exactly the cannon ending shows that the entire game was worthless, not that it ever served a point anyway.

It's not the canon ending, none of the endings have been confirmed as canon.

It's not the canon ending, none of the endings have been confirmed as canon.

It's the only one that makes sense based on the memos as well as his dad saying no you were in a mental hospital (Which is Alex's psyche yelling hey this isn't real).

Just because Alex was in a mental hospital doesn't mean that he still is.

Have you considered that Adam told Alex he was in a mental hospital because he wanted Alex to know the truth before he died?

Over-theorizing is what we do with Silent Hill games. It's the reason why people are still talking about Silent Hill 2 over a decade past its release. Silent Hill 2 left a lot of blanks, but it also left a lot of other material in the game just like Shattered Memories.

You can say the exact same thing about the "Maria" ending in Silent Hill 2 - James just walks away with Maria like nothing ever happened.

No all the information that you need to decipher the plot is given to you.

Just like in Origins, Homecoming and Shattered Memories.

And no the maria ending is nothing like anything in the Shattered Memories or Homecoming. James accepts what he did and believes Maria can fill that void he doesn't disown his thoughts of murder just tries to make up for what he did. However based on what is shown to us at the end of that scene we can assume that the events will repeat themselves.

So, basically, James learned nothing from his experience in Silent Hill? That's what you're saying.

Re-killed who? The monsters that they manifest aren't real people, they may represent real people but they're not real people.

They are real people if they weren't than James would not be able to have a final goodbye with Mary long after she died.

He wasn't saying good bye to Mary, he was saying good bye to the monster incarnation of her.

The whole point of Silent Hill 2 is that James was punishing himself because he felt guilty. All those monsters were manifested by him.

I never said that Travis killed Order soldiers, I said that Alex killed Order soldiers.

Meant to say Homecoming, my bad. However I will still address the fact that Brutally murdering Human beings really detaches the theme of death which was always ambiguous in 1-3. That game throws way too much gore in your face to the point where it really holds no meaning.

That's another issue entirely.

What were the plot holes (besides the obvious teleportation)?

How is Josh able to roam the town?

Josh is dead. His presence is one of Alex's manifestations, just like the monsters.

If Josh was killed by the method of death he was meant to die from, Why did the "God"(which doesn't exist...) "Unleash his wrath on the town"? The sacrifice was should've been successful so what's going on here?

Josh wasn't the intended sacrifice and Adam didn't kill him.

If you had examined the Shepherd Family sacrificial altar in Homecoming you'd see that "Alex Shepherd" is one of the names inscribed on the side (along with Daniel Shepherd, Thomas Shepherd and Rebecca Shepherd). Joshua's death didn't count as a sacrifice because Alex was the one who was supposed to be drowned and Adam didn't kill Joshua, he accidentally broke his neck and drowned.

For it to count as a sacrifice, Joshua would have had to have his name on the altar instead of Alex's and Adam would have had to drown him. Instead, Joshua wasn't the child to be sacrificed and he died by accident without any intervention by Adam.

What is Pyramid Head doing here?
I'm not even going to bother to explain why he can't exist without James.

That was the Bogeyman. Pyramid Head was never in Homecoming.

Why not? Is it because you don't want him to?

Maria was only present when James was around, when he wasn't she didn't exist and nobody else could see her. Cheryl's mind is apparently able to manifest itself to an entire town she's not Alessa and has no psychic powers which haven't been tainted by the cult or the god.

You don't need psychic powers to imagine a town in your head. You don't need psychic powers to imagine anything.

Alex in Homecoming dreamt that he was in Alchemilla Hospital and he certainly wasn't psychic.

Whether the spiritual power exists or not can't be said since Silent Hill 2 explains spiritual power to exist many years before the events of the games due to the holy ground sanctified by Native Americans. Still that power would never be tainted and the whole area would still be "A sacred place" -Mary Shepherd Sunderland and not one that "used to be" which is why people would be living there still in Shattered Memories.

You forget that the Silent Hill in Shattered Memories isn't the Silent Hill in the main canon.

It doesn't need Alessa Gillespie or the Cult to be creepy, all it needs is the psychotic delusions of an adult who can't accept that her daddy is dead.

Yes it can. Alessa didn't make Silent Hill supernatural, it had already been supernatural for years before she was ever born.

But that's beside the point, because Shattered Memories takes place in an ALTERNATE CONTINUITY in an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE.

Without Alessa and the cult the town is nothing but sacred ground not evil in any way. Now this re-imagining thing that everyone clings on so much really needs to go. Every time you say that you're just saying that it isn't a Silent Hill game this is not some fool-proof rule that allows it to be whatever it wants it's quite the opposite.

Comic book writers create alternate continuities in alternate universes for works with established and they're accepted as being part of the franchise, so I don't see why Silent Hill should be considered any differently.

Nope, it wasn't erased. It was never there to begin with.

Shattered Memories has an alternate continuity that takes place in an alternate universe.

That's what erased means.

No, that's not what it means.

And you really need to stop clinging to this excuse of alternate continuity there is no continuity nothing in Shattered Memories can be explained through any rules it sets for itself in fact the rules set by the first game state directly that without any cult or any Alessa none of what happens in Shattered Memories can happen.

Neither Alessa Gillespie nor the cult need to exist for Cheryl Heather Mason to have psychotic delusions. To say so is laughable.

You don't seem to understand that Alessa never existed in the Shattered Memories to begin with.

She didn't need to anyway, everything that the player experiences during Harry's journey in Silent Hill is a product of her mind. Including the Ice World.

Then nothing happens in the game at all that's what you're telling me the plot is.

When you break it down to its most basic, yes, nothing really happens during the game.

And if you still believe she isn't necessary for the plot after reading my explanation this time around I don't know how else to convince you.

I don't believe Alessa is necessary for the plot because she's not. Cheryl doesn't need Alessa Gillespie to be around in order to have psychotic delusions.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

If you acknowledge your fallacy in saying that I must think the comic books and film are good because I accept them as part of the franchise, I'll return to the argument.

You already did ;] and since you seem to know how bad your response is you deleted it hoping that your stalemate which I've already proven to be terrible So to that I refer you.

Huh? I didn't delete my response, I copied it to a TextEdit document so that I could fix the quote tags later.

I'm putting it back up right now.

Silent Hill 2 is a standalone game that doesn't involve the cult. You can understand it just fine without having to play Silent Hill: Origins, Silent Hill and Silent Hill 3.

1. Origins doesn't display the story that happened before one which I've explained to great detail why the only thing playing that will do is confuse you into misunderstanding the flauros, Alessa's intentions and what the cult was trying to do. Oh and it'll show you how to sloppily convey Silent Hill 2's plot.

How did Origins sloppily convey Silent Hill 2's plot?

The first Silent Hill makes perfect sense on its own, you said it yourself that everything related to the story is there in memos.

Objection! I said the spiritual power blessed upon the land by Native Americans is explained in Sh2 which it also explains how a small sect of Christianity (Also referred to as "A cult") Worshiped a god viewed by most as a devil causing this power to be tainted to their spiritual views! Had this spiritual power not been explained SH1 would contain huge plot holes.

You seem to have misunderstood my post here:

No most of the story was delivered through interactions with the world I.E. what a character said when interacting with certain objects and examining items in your inventory. How they acted and presented themselves when talking with people in cut scenes. Only in Silent Hill 1 were memos such a huge part of the plot and that's fine because you were finding records of the cult mostly things which obviously Dahlia won't just be outright revealing to you.

Your post puts it pretty clearly:

No most of the story was delivered through interactions with the world I.E. what a character said when interacting with certain objects and examining items in your inventory. How they acted and presented themselves when talking with people in cut scenes. Only in Silent Hill 1 were memos such a huge part of the plot and that's fine because you were finding records of the cult mostly things which obviously Dahlia won't just be outright revealing to you.

I didn't say that it was all explained just that what was told was done so mostly through memos but even that used the world to convey story as well.

I know all about that, in fact I wrote the article about it on the Silent Hill Wiki. Yeah, that was a dumb thing to do but it doesn't contradict anything.

There's a period of 31 years between Origins and Homecoming, which is enough for renovation and geographic changes within the town to have occurred (buildings being replaced and the shoreline of Toluca Lake receding inland). Heck, the last time we saw Central Silent Hill was in the first Silent Hill game which is still 24 years before Homecoming.

So, was putting a prison in Central Silent Hill and bringing in the shoreline of Toluca Lake a dumb thing to do? Yes. Does it break continuity? Nope.

These are based off dates set in origins which I've proven to a point of incredibility.

Those are not "dates" set in Origins. They're the years in between games and they have been like that way before Origins was ever released.

Exactly. Weird shit was happening before Alessa was ever burned. People were already starting to disappear from Silent Hill way back in 1890.

But that's not the case in SH:SM in fact there is no power you seem to forget why you were saying this.

You said, "Silent Hill is a series about a town surrounded by a spiritual power bestowed upon the land by a Native American tribe. Due to a perverse spiritual belief the power took that form and allowed strange things to happen."

And I responded with, "Exactly. Weird shit was happening before Alessa was ever burned. People were already starting to disappear from Silent Hill way back in 1890."

It explains why there's an Otherworld in Origins.

I said that the comic books were Silent Hill material. I never said that they were any good.

The same goes for Homecoming, I said that it was a part of the series but I never said that it was good. In fact, I think it was pretty sub-standard.

Now there's many reasons that they aren't

Which I'll say in advance that I agree with.

but let's go with the glaringly obvious one. Pyramid Head, not a staple to the series or a mascot he is simply something which only James can see. And no one else! There aren't multiple unless James' stress increases and nobody has seen him other than James and Maria (Who is also an incarnation of James' mind).

Which of his appearances are you talking about? Or are you just talking in general? He's in games, comic books and the film.

And no don't say he's the executioner of the town and is used to punish guilty people if that were the case Eddie would also encounter him but he doesn't the town uses James and Laura to accomplish this which is much more complex.

I wasn't going to say that, in fact I've had people use that argument against me. I agree that Pyramid Head should be exclusive to James.

I agree with everything you say above except for, "At the same time a completely unnecessary visual representation is going on in her mind."

How is it unnecessary?

Because it's only there for the audience it holds no meaning.

But if it's there for the audience then it does have a meaning.

It's a metaphor with no physical bounds and since it's created by Cheryl's mind that means the only part that she's aware of is when he walks in the rest literally doesn't happen. In other words if a tree falls in the woods and nobody's around to hear it does it make a sound?

Are you saying that Cheryl wasn't aware of her own fantasy? She was, it was established at the beginning of the game.

The way the story is told only makes sense from a writer's perspective not from a practical one.

What parts didn't make sense?

They don't need to be similar to be a part of the same franchise. That's the beauty of it.

Okay I'm going to go buy out Lucas Arts and re-write "Star Wars episode IV a New Hope" except in my version I'll have it take place on a school playground and Darth Vader will be a playground bully and Luke a nerdy kid the rest of the characters won't be there and it won't have anything to do with it otherwise other than some nods and references. But because it'll be made by Lucas Arts and be called Star War it'll be accepted into the franchise. "That's the beauty of it".

I would be more accepting of that than the prequel trilogy. :-D

Yes, this is a very apt comparison these people hold no understanding of what Silent Hill is about.

Who are you talking about? Climax Studios? Double Helix Games? Konami?

Origins didn't copy Silent Hill 2 and neither did Shattered Memories.

It is fair to say that Homecoming was extremely influenced by 2, but you cannot say that Origins and Shattered Memories copied 2.

Someone died, amnesia.

In Origins, Travis always knew about his mother's insanity and his father's suicide. He just chose not to dwell on it.

At the beginning of the game he has flashbacks to his father's funeral and another trucker on the radio says, "Travis, you messed-up son of a *****."

Not to mention his insomnia.

In Shattered Memories, Cheryl always knew that Harry had died. She chose not to believe it because it was too traumatising for her - hence, the psychotic delusions.

Just because the audience doesn't know of the tragedy doesn't mean that the character didn't know. It's called denial [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial].

And don't say Travis knew it was for the audience to find out because that's what downpour's creators are saying about Murphy. First off that's the same thing it doesn't matter if the protagonist killed the person.

I don't see how that's relevant. Travis never forgot what happened, he just chose not to talk about it and put it behind him.

"Person dead let's tell you who" is the running theme of all the new Silent Hill games.

Uh-huh. I don't deny that. However, to claim that each new game "copies" Silent Hill 2 is preposterous.

None of this is out of order at all you restated the same thing like 10 times because you think something unrelated to Silent Hill will win you the discussion so you're taking your small victories left and right

I restated the same thing because you don't appear to be reading.

without focusing on any facts or proof or examples behind what you say.

You must have missed the first page of discussion.

I think the biggest confusion is my use of the word good which I'm not surprised you think has only one meaning. Good can be used in the sense of goes with the flow or as I said viable/valid which they are none of the above.

Now you're just trying to cover your ass by saying you meant something else.

What would make them "true" entries to the series? If they had been developed by Team Silent, would you consider them to be "true" entries?

No if they added to the story while following what was already there. Now ignoring Shattered Memories nothing made by a foreign team has done that.

Homecoming did that. It didn't do it very well, but it did do exactly that. It added to the story while following what was already there.

Not the comics not the games or spin-offs And definitely not the movie which was supposed to be based directly off SH1 and had almost as much to do with it as Origins neither of which understood what even happened in Silent Hill 1 when the game straight explains the events. Origins tried to claim that the boiler explosion was a cover-up when really it was what happened.

Those are all good points but you forgot all about Homecoming.

And have you read Past Life? I hear it's pretty good.

I'm glad that we both think that combat was not a problem, but Homecoming doesn't break any continuity.

It's not scary it's not psychological it's not original and it completely ignores the themes of sex and death. On top of this it's a grind house gore fest which [poorly] copies Silent Hill 2.

Your preference of expression defining her lack of existence is all well and good as I've said but you didn't address anything there which proves why it can't happen without having nothing to do with the rest of the series therefore breaking it off as a viable entry.

I did address the issue.

I said, "It doesn't need Alessa Gillespie or the Cult to be creepy, all it needs is the psychotic delusions of an adult who can't accept that her daddy is dead."

I just explained that in the post itself.

Not really.

Travis did "talk" with the monsters. He didn't show any guilt or emotion because there was none to be had. He recognised that he had done nothing wrong as a kid and that the monsters weren't his parents.

Then he moved on, like James moved on from realising that he killed his wife. It was easier for Travis because he didn't do anything wrong whereas James killed his wife.

The Alessa we see in Silent Hill is also significantly older - twice her age in fact, it's plausible that she would have mellowed out and matured.

The Alessa in Origins can't even exist she hasn't split her soul yet.

Josh is dead. His presence is one of Alex's manifestations.

No, that's just Josh as Alex remembered him

Exactly. What's wrong with that?

and the town doesn't do that it makes manifestations based on your view of them.

Exactly, the manifested Josh was a 9 year old boy who wasn't dead.

Maria=sexualized due to James seeing his wife that way.

Actually, Maria was sexualised because James was sexually frustrated and he wanted his wife to be like that.

Do you think this is sexy?

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/maryshepherdsunderland.jpg/]

Angela's dad was monstrous because that's how she viewed her father. So what you're saying is Josh is viewed by Alex as Josh

Why wouldn't Josh be viewed by Alex as Josh?

the proper way to do that would be to make a needy defenseless Josh who was always in danger (It'd be even better if it was somehow Alex's fault much like with James).

Or, to make Alex a protector.

Which he did, by deluding himself into thinking he was a soldier. Problem solved.

Josh wasn't the intended sacrifice and Adam didn't kill him.

If you had examined the Shepherd Family sacrificial altar in Homecoming you'd see that "Alex Shepherd" is one of the names inscribed on the side (along with Daniel Shepherd, Thomas Shepherd and Rebecca Shepherd). Joshua's death didn't count as a sacrifice because Alex was the one who was supposed to be drowned and Adam didn't kill Joshua, he accidentally broke his neck and drowned.

For it to count as a sacrifice, Joshua would have had to have his name on the altar instead of Alex's and Adam would have had to drown him. Instead, Joshua wasn't the child to be sacrificed and he died by accident without any intervention by Adam.

That just means that Alex was the one they prepared for.

Exactly. Since Alex was the one prepared for sacrifice and he wasn't sacrificed, the pact was broken.

The Sacrifice Rules just state that one kid of the Shepherd family had to be sacrificed to the water it doesn't even say drowned

How else is the child supposed to die by water? Drinking themselves to death?

nor does it specify who had to be the sacrifice or who had to do it.

I just told you, the subject of the sacrifice was specified on the Shepherd Family Sacrificial Altar.

or who had to do it.

I quote:


"We, the Family Shepherd, in order to ensure our continued protection and prosperity, do enter into this Holy Contract with our God, accept our duties as Master of Arms and willingly consign our child to the water in God's name."

Adam Shepherd, the town sheriff, was the Master of Arms.

That was the Bogeyman. Pyramid Head was never in Homecoming.

Oh you're funny. The names are just for players to distinguish them in game they don't hold these (Unless you're reading the immersion breaking tips on the loading screens which are still only for the players and aren't actually in game.)

His knife is called the "Bogeyman Knife" and he was manifested from the Bogeyman nursery rhyme.

Therefore what actually matters is the visual appearance and there's no way two people had the exact same thought on their mind (Again only James can see him as he's a manifestation of HIS mind).

James didn't come up with Pyramid Head's physical appearance all on his own, he took inspiration from a painting.

You forget that the Silent Hill in Shattered Memories isn't the Silent Hill in the main canon.

It doesn't need Alessa Gillespie or the Cult to be creepy, all it needs is the psychotic delusions of an adult who can't accept that her daddy is dead.

Then it's not a Silent Hill game it has nothing to do with Silent Hill.

It is a Silent Hill game and has everything to do with Silent Hill.

Comic book writers create alternate continuities in alternate universes for works with established and they're accepted as being part of the franchise, so I don't see why Silent Hill should be considered any differently.

Alternate continuities still follow the same rules in comics such as dc and marvel and still follow a similar flow of events

So does Shattered Memories.

and for the most part those aren't accepted in fact they're a mess.

They're accepted as part of the series, they're just not accepted as canon.

The only people who accept those are people who need new content because they've nothing else to cling to anymore which is exactly what your doing except that SH:SM is a game about nothing which has nothing to do with anything prior in it's series.

It's still a part of the series, whether you like it or not.

As for the other two, they don't follow rules!

What rules?

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

Again you're misunderstanding it. I said most of what WAS told I didn't say it didn't leave parts out. There's still the huge plot holes which Silent Hill 2 covered. And the fact that you used the same quote I just clarified on to try and prove me wrong shows your misunderstanding go back and read it again.

This memo seems to explain the situation pretty well:

Chapter 3:
"Manifestation of Delusions"

...Poltergeists are among these. 
Negative emotions, like fear,
worry, or stress manifest 
into external energy with 
physical effects.
Nightmares have, in some cases, 
been shown to trigger them.
However, such phenomena do not 
appear to happen to just anyone.
Although it's not clear why, 
adolescents, especially girls, 
are prone to such occurrences.

Those are not "dates" set in Origins. They're the years in between games and they have been like that way before Origins was ever released.

Okay then explain to me how you know the gap in time between 1 and Homecoming without using Origins or any timeline which includes Origins.

Walter Sullivan's diary in Silent Hill 4: The Room has an entry on October 21st that says reading lessons occur on Sundays and that Walter is kept locked up all the other days. He later goes to Ashfield on October 28th, February 10th and March 17th which must all occur on Sundays. Looking at a calendar, October 21st and October 28th are Sundays in 1973 and February 10th and March 17th are Sundays in 1974. He was six years old when he began writing the diary in 1973 and 1973 - 6 = 1967, he must have been born circa 1967.

The aforementioned October 21st entry also mentions that Dahlia Gillespie met with Walter and told him that his mother is Room 302, so Silent Hill obviously doesn't occur earlier than 1973. Silent Hill 4: The Room Official Guide Complete Edition lists Walter's age at death as "24" and 1973 + 24 = 1991, he died in 1991. One of Joseph Schreiber's journal entries says that a few days after Walter killed himself, several residents (including Frank Sunderland) saw a long-haired man with a coat (Walter) at Room 302. Ten years later, in 2001, Frank Sunderland recorded in his diary that he saw the man with the coat 10 years ago at the apartment again. Silent Hill 4: The Room takes place in 2001.

Silent Hill 3 occurs seventeen years after Silent Hill and after Joseph Schreiber published an article about beginning an investigation into the Order and Hope House in Concord, but before he began his journal on April 4th (in Silent Hill 4: The Room). On April 8th he states, "The cult itself is gone." Of course, we know that in Silent Hill 3 that's not the case so he wrote that sometime after the events of Silent Hill 3. So, to allow for time, we say that the article was published two years before the events of Silent Hill 4: The Room and that Silent Hill 3 takes place a year after. That leaves us with the year 2000. Heather is seventeen years old and 2000 - 17 = 1983. Heather was "born" in 1983, the year in which Silent Hill occurs.

Now, we already know Homecoming takes place in 2007, so it's a matter of 2007 - 1983 = 24. Twenty-four years between Silent Hill and Silent Hill: Homecoming and thirty-one years between Silent Hill: Origins and Silent Hill: Homecoming.

Satisfied? It was all there in the first four Silent Hill games.

Because there's nothing other than Origins which distinguishes Sh1's date of occurrence.

Origins never distinguished when Silent Hill occurred. Homecoming did that, with the help of timelines constructed by fans who worked out the dates of the first four games using Walter Sullivan's diary.

All Origins did was establish that Silent Hill took place after 1961.

Also 2 and 3 both show that the water is nowhere near that area so even of your current day theory it's only been like 7 years.

2 and 3 never go anywhere near Central Silent Hill.

On top of that the cult doesn't operate like that at all, what Homecoming shows is the movie portrayal.

That's because the sect in Homecoming is the Shepherd's Glen sect of the Order [http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/The_Order#Sect_of_Shepherd.27s_Glen], the one that sacrifices children to god.

The sect in Silent Hill and Silent Hill 3 is the Sect of the Holy Woman [http://silenthill.wikia.com/wiki/The_Order#Sect_of_the_Holy_Woman], the one that uses children as vessels to birth god.

The otherworld was the projection of the nightmare Alessa suffered due to the demon and she only spread once she split her soul by using her Cheryl projection to spread the Seal of Metatron. "Wierd shit" and Otherworld are completely different.

That's cool and all, but Alessa didn't create the Otherworld. It's always been there.

Again, Kaufman in Silent Hill 1 acts like he's never seen the monsters or the snow to him it's a new phenomenon if it were to be happening in Origins he wouldn't act the way he did.

You do realise that the Otherworld appears differently to everyone, right?

Alessa's Otherworld is only manifested in Silent Hill and Kaufmann says he's never seen the monsters or out-of-season snow because he really has never seen the monsters or out-of-season snow.

I wasn't going to say that, in fact I've had people use that argument against me. I agree that Pyramid Head should be exclusive to James.

Well there ya go comics movie and Homecoming are all off the list of Silent Hill titles and you agree. Continuity broken, rules ignored out of ignorance *Stamp* non-legitimate content.

Now this is where you confuse me. You're saying that just because I don't like Pyramid Head appearing outside of Silent Hill 2 that the other media is non-legitimate content?

And that was Origins in case you forgot.

It doesn't matter. You and I don't decide the fate of the series, Konami does.

If that's how Climax says it happened then so be it.

Konami is just a publisher I'm referring to the writers of all projects other than 1-4 (Games, Spin-offs, Movie, Comics).

And who do you think commissions the games, films and comic books? Konami OWN the franchise and they decide what to do with it. If you don't like how people are handling Silent Hill, then you should be blaming Konami because they decide who gets to create content for the franchise. They're more involved than you think.

The real term would be emotionally repressed memory which means they forgot because they couldn't deal with the truth this is exactly what happens to all 4 characters.

Nope. Not with Travis and Cheryl. James and Alex, sure, but not the other two.

Travis upon seeing the key of the hotel in the theater says "I think I've been there before" this implication shows that he doesn't have a clear memory of what happened and did indeed forget.

He says, "I think I've been here before." because he visited the motel FIFTEEN YEARS AGO when HE WAS STILL A CHILD.

Not to mention here, he says, "Why won't you let me forget?"

He didn't forget.

Silent Hill Shattered Memories has Cheryl believing he was still alive this means she didn't know and if she didn't know she forgot.

She knew. She was in denial. You can't be in denial over something you forgot.

No that's exactly what it is except in Silent Hill 2 it had meaning and purpose to it you felt for James as he overcame his trials and tribulations through his delusion and denial all the way up to the video tape where he becomes a broken man after witnessing his horrible act and then ultimately progressing to get over it.

In Origins Travis sees his past but doesn't react in any way at all.

He does react, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CttiZ4MFM8&t=2m30s] just not in the same way as James. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CttiZ4MFM8&t=9m5s]

In Homecoming the moment Alex finds out he just walks off cause he knows now so that must be it.

This video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKZF6VOKxgw&t=9m0s] shows otherwise.

And in Shattered Memories there's no progression at all Cheryl finds out and then goes immediately to one of two extremes (Gets over it immediately,

Like I said before, we don't know that. We get a thirty second scene of Cheryl interacting with "Harry" before it cuts to the home movies that depict the Harry you played as and then to credits.

Arguably, James is the one who "gets over it immediately", because in two out of six endings he watches the video, looks depressed and then just leaves Silent Hill. He doesn't emote - he just goes into little monotonic soliloquies.

Or pretends it didn't happen).

You mean the denial?

That is unfortunately a real life occurrence with people who suffer psychosis.

No you just don't understand word preference such as forgotten and erased. Both of these words fit to the situation exactly how you're describing it however you don't seem to understand that it can be worded differently. I even showed you the definition of the word erased and it matched your wording of it exactly. She never existed; erased: removed as if never existed.

No, you don't understand that in order for something to be erased, it has to exist first.

No you just don't understand idioms you displayed this when you said that "messed up sonofabitch" was an insult.

I didn't say it was an insult.

And how you couldn't read the emotion in the very same conversation which wasn't tense or aggressive in anyway it was just buddies talking.

I never said the emotion in the conversation was tense or aggressive.

Homecoming didn't do that it didn't add anything to Silent Hill at all it tried to tell us the story of some other neighboring town and how the cult treated them

Exactly, it added to the story while following what was already there.

but it didn't make sense.

Only because you don't understand it.

I've already explained how the ritual states that one member of each family had to die a specific way, Josh died to water yet it didn't work and for no other reason other than because they didn't think it through or they forgot to explain it but the text of the ritual says one family member of the Shepherd family must die to the water

Yes, a member of the Shepherd Family must be sacrificed to water.

What constitutes as a sacrifice is:

a) Having the child's name inscribed on the sacrificial altar.
and b) Sacrificing the child whose name is on the altar by the ordained method.

Joshua's death fulfilled neither of those. He wasn't the sacrificial child and he died by accident - he broke his neck, fell in the water and drowned. He wasn't sacrificed by a member of the Shepherd family.

(Also if the families knew this wouldn't they have second kids? Two of the families just didn't for whatever reason.

We don't know that.

And it didn't follow rules the creators themselves have stated in modern day that Pyramid Head can't exist without James.

So what's the problem?

have you read Past Life? I hear it's pretty good.

No.

It's got a character in it that's going to appear in Downpour.

So you mean he denied it? As in he didn't remember?

Yes. Didn't you play the game?

He sure as hell isn't protecting Josh.

But he did think he was protecting people, which is what's important.

That just means that Alex was the one they prepared for.

And Alex wasn't sacrificed, so the pact was broken.

No he just has to be "Burried"/Laid to rest in water.

Which means drowning.

No... That just means the intended victim was Alex nothing states it couldn't be Josh.

Well it makes no sense to inscribe one child's name on the altar and then sacrifice another.

As long as his name was on that altar, Alex was always going to be the sacrifice.

That just means he'll assure it happens not that he himself would personally do it.

Which still leaves the matter of Josh dying instead of Alex. Alex was the intended sacrifice and he wasn't sacrificed, so the pact was broken and a shitstorm ensued.

That was the Bogeyman. Pyramid Head was never in Homecoming.

Oh you're funny. The names are just for players to distinguish them in game they don't hold these (Unless you're reading the immersion breaking tips on the loading screens which are still only for the players and aren't actually in game.)

No, that's his name.

Alex calls him "the Bogeyman" and he's known by no other moniker.

His knife is called the "Bogeyman Knife" and he was manifested from the Bogeyman nursery rhyme.

Look at him! It's fucking pyramid head! And the worst part is it's the one from the movie.

It's only Pyramid Head if you want him to be.

Tomm Hulett says it's up to the player's interpretation. I'm surprised you keep calling him Pyramid Head in spite of your detestation of him appearing in works outside of Silent Hill 2.

And no a key item that happened to look like it was called that.

No, it was exactly the same.

Therefore what actually matters is the visual appearance and there's no way two people had the exact same thought on their mind (Again only James can see him as he's a manifestation of HIS mind).

They were influenced by the same thing, the cult executioners of Silent Hill.

There is no problem with Alex and/or Adam manifesting the Bogeyman to resemble a Silent Hill cult executioner. Adam was a member of the Sect of Shepherd's Glen (a division of the Order) and Alex read/heard a nursery rhyme about "the Bogeyman of Silent Hill".

James didn't come up with Pyramid Head's physical appearance all on his own, he took inspiration from a painting.

He saw Pyramid Head long before the painting.

And he visited Silent Hill with Mary three years before he ever saw Pyramid Head.

In fact it's the other way around the painting was a creation of his mind

Can you prove that?

it's not even of the executioners it's Pyramid Head, James even confirms. James: "It's him."

At the time, James also thought that Mary died of her illness three years ago and that she sent him a letter telling him that she was waiting for him in Silent Hill.

We both know how that worked out.

It is a Silent Hill game and has everything to do with Silent Hill.

My star wars comparison explains why it isn't.

Your Star Wars comparison doesn't explain anything.

It's still a part of the series, whether you like it or not.

Star wars proves this wrong.

Well, I've watched all six episodes of Star Wars and not once has it proven that Silent Hill: Shattered Memories is not a part of the Silent Hill series.

Origins: Otherworld didn't exist until Alessa [unwittingly] Spread it in Silent Hill 1 so thing's like Alessa vengefully attacking dahlia with her own fears seems hugely out of character. The events that it thought it took from Silent Hill 1's memos was incorrect.

Do you have a source to confirm that statement?

Homecoming: Pyramid Head enough said.

It's not necessarily Pyramid Head.

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

No that explains the boiler explosion (Which Origins explained as a cover up as if the burning of Alessa is intentional when in reality it happened on accident). The spritual power is explained it 2 to be blessed upon it by native Americans.(Or at least they saw it as a spiritual place which means it existed long before her she has nothing to do with it other than that she manifested it to enhance her power of making her thoughts real. This in turn spreads the nightmare when her power is combined with the innate spiritual power. Which happens when she spreads the seal of metatron which ultimately infuses her power (not intentionally) with the town's thus allowing people's thoughts to be projected onto the town even when she's not around in 2.

The memo also explains how Alessa's Otherworld was created and transfigured the town.

This would also mean that Origins can NOT exist as the soul split happens at the very end of the game. Origins has Travis and his mother years before able to experience it the other problem is Alessa hasn't split her soul yet so she can't just be wandering the town. No, the astro-projection memo doesn't cover this up because she can't project herself without first splitting her own soul as shown in 1 and 3.

Alessa's soul-splitting had nothing to do with the creation of the Otherworld.

1. Silent Hill 1 cannot take place earlier than 1987 due to the fact that Harry owns a car that was released in 1987.(The Jeep yj Wrangler) Depiste this Origins doesn't consider this and sets the date off.

By that logic, Silent Hill cannot take place earlier than 1994 because the handgun that Cybil gives Harry (a Smith & Wesson Sigma) was designed in '93 and created in '94. Which means that Silent Hill takes place in the same year as Silent Hill 2 or in the years after. Which means that, at the very least, Silent Hill 3 takes place in 2011. Which is wrong, because Silent Hill 4 takes place in 2001 and Silent Hill 3 takes place before it.

2. Frank saw the GHOST of Walter Sullivan 10 years ago and didn't identify him as Walter because he knew Walter was dead.

That doesn't change the fact that it was Walter Sullivan.

3. Walter doesn't age since years before sh4 due to the fact that he's dead.

Nobody said he aged.

Really? that's strange considering the exact same wish/hope house article shows up in Silent Hill 3. So... no, wrong. (The name inconsistency isn't present in the Japanese version not that it matters because the rest of the article is identical)

How is that wrong? I said that the Hope/Wish House article was written before Silent Hill 3. You just can't read properly.

Nope I already broke the rest of the train of thought so nope, still wrong. Though points for effort you did date 4 correctly just not 1 or 3.

No, you broke your own train of thought.

No... Origins dates itself 7 years before 1 and dates the gap between it's events and it's flashbacks therefore it sets Silent Hill 1 somewhere in the 70's which I've already proven is incorrect.

Tell me, where in Origins does it date the gap between its events and Travis's flashbacks?

Incorrect, in 2 you can take your boat to that corner. Also the map shows it. You can say the map's out of date but you can't argue that fact that you can literally see that the lake doesn't extend to there.

So then show me the map.

Or a video of the boat going to the east coast of Central Silent Hill.

Did you just link me to the wiki? That's not a legitimate source. There is nothing in the game which distinguishes these. In fact Homecoming just says the order comes and kills people if their god isn't pleased with sacrifices.

I guess you didn't read any of the memos.

In the pursuit of creating a more perfect Way, rules must be followed and rules must be enforced. Any member who ignores this command shall be dealt with swiftly and in view of all. This shall ensure continued prosperity.
It is, therefore, imperative that the effective Master Of Arms not waive in the responsibility of enacting this power until his last day in this life.
In God's name, so shall it be.

With the truth of the old believers fractured, it is essential that one person maintain and effectuate the modern sectarian rites we have toiled so faithfully to create and protect.
After taking up the mantle of this post, The Performer Of Rites shall make a pilgrimage to the edge of the forsaken region to purify himself from the sins of the past. There he will beseech the forefathers for forgiveness and understanding.
In God's name, so shall it be.

Did you even play the game? The sect in Homecoming is different from the sect in Silent Hill and Silent Hill 3. The whole reason that Shepherd's Glen was founded was so that the four families could practice their own beliefs separately.

The history of Shepherd's Glen is one of opportunity and enterprise. First settled nearly a century and a half ago, its founders came here as pilgrims, searching for a new home to practice their faith and ensure the prosperity of their four families.
It soon flourished into a thriving small town. Shops and businesses sprung up on what is now Main Street. The turn of the century brought tourists, eager to explore the region's lakes and rivers. And with tourists, came more business.

In the 1950s, many of the original municipal buildings, such as the town hall and the library, were restored. The 1990s encouraged further investment, modernizing Shepherd's Glen as it headed into the new millennium.
But throughout its success, Shepherd's Glen has always managed to remain a close-knit community, maintaining
the same ideals on which it was founded. One can only hope that the founding families would be proud, if they saw the town as it is today.

The otherworld was the projection of the nightmare Alessa suffered due to the demon and she only spread once she split her soul by using her Cheryl projection to spread the Seal of Metatron. "Wierd shit" and Otherworld are completely different.

That doesn't prove that the Alessa created the Otherworld, just that she created the Otherworld (her Otherworld) in Silent Hill.

Just saying no I won't accept that isn't an argument. Alessa's power is to make thoughts reality if she hasn't spread her power unintentionally yet then Origins can't exist.

And you still haven't proven that.

Again, Kaufman in Silent Hill 1 acts like he's never seen the monsters or the snow to him it's a new phenomenon if it were to be happening in Origins he wouldn't act the way he did.

I addressed this:

It wasn't snowing in Origins and we never see Kaufmann encounter any monsters.

You do realise that the Otherworld appears differently to everyone, right?

No, you experience your own otherworld differently you still see other's as their own.

Exactly.

It wasn't snowing in the Fog World or Travis's Otherworld. The town hadn't yet been transfigured into Alessa's Otherworld.

You said, "Again, Kaufman in Silent Hill 1 acts like he's never seen the monsters or the snow to him it's a new phenomenon if it were to be happening in Origins he wouldn't act the way he did."

You're saying that the Otherworld in Origins is Alessa's and I'm telling you that it's not. It's Travis's.

And in this case it's Alessa's they are her thoughts not Harry's not Kaufman's. As for 2 when each person had their own otherworld they still overlapped into one coherent thought Like with the 2 times it happens with Angela and the one time it happens with Eddie when you fight him.

Thanks for telling me what I already know.

Your misunderstanding of this seems to explain why you think Origins can exist where there isn't any distinction of whose nightmare your in and how it pertains to anyone (Same goes for Homecoming).

Uh, what? I do understand, you're just projecting.

No he's just never seen monsters before,

Thanks for agreeing with me.

he wouldn't confide in some outsider just because new monsters showed up.

So now you're saying that Kaufmann saw old monsters?

No, nobody else can see him just play Silent Hill 2 Maria gets killed by him and still doesn't acknowledge that he killed her she was just "separated in that long hallway".

She does. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIB3gxxa7CE]

There are several memos which describe a creature which nobody could see except for the writer. If you look at the corpse of the writer next to the notes that person is James much like all other corpses so in conclusion: Only James can see the Pyramid Head. Not just people who deserve punishment.

Pyramid Head also appears in Silent Hill: The Arcade and is seen by Eric Lake.

does Eddie deserve punishment? YES! Does the town use Pyramid Head to deliver it? No! It uses James, Laura and the illusion of people making fun of him who in turn become corpses reminding him of the crimes he committed.

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. I already know that Pyramid Head didn't punish Eddie. Did you think that Pyramid Head was there to punish Eddie?

This is irrelevant the person to blame is the writer. Konami is just a publisher they fund the project and hold no creative freedom. I guess you don't know what a publisher is.

And I guess you have no idea of what you're talking about.

From an interview on Silent Hill Heaven [http://silenthillheaven.com/main/shhf_shsminterview/]:

SYNTHETICLUNG: How often (if at all) does Konami intervene when making a Silent Hill game?

TOMM: This is an important question! I think there is a mistaken belief that Publishers approach a Developer and ask them to build a game ? kind of like a homework assignment ? and turn it in by the deadline. Then the Developer goes off on their own and makes a game, then turns it in, and the Publisher tosses it on the shelf. However, this is NOT the case!
Konami is involved at every step of development, guiding the vision of the product and making changes to ensure it?s the best Silent Hill experience it can be. The easiest way to think of it is that Konami and Climax are making Shattered Memories TOGETHER, both parties doing different jobs to create a great end product. As Producer, I?m in charge of the game as a whole and nothing goes in without my approval. To be honest this is pretty pleasant on Shattered Memories, because Climax creates such awesome stuff. I don?t have to ?fix? anything; I spend most of my time making sure all the cool stuff is as cool as it can be. (But don?t tell my supervisor that.)
Throughout Production, Konami ends up doing a lot of little odd jobs to make sure a Silent Hill game is a Silent Hill game. For example, on Homecoming I helped Designer Jason Allen figure out Pyramid Head?s ?purpose,? and I wrote the Bogeyman nursery rhyme which you can find on drawings throughout that game.
I guess a much shorter answer would be "Konami is very involved in all aspects of the Silent Hill games."

Keep in mind that Tomm Hulett works for Konami and is in charge of the Silent Hill franchise.

Travis upon seeing the key of the hotel in the theater says "I think I've been there before" this implication shows that he doesn't have a clear memory of what happened and did indeed forget.

If he forgot, then why does he say, "I think I've been there before"?

The answer is he never forgot and you're just projecting.

So he forgot? I'll answer for you, Yes!

If he forgot then what makes him think he's been there before?

He forgot she reminded. He didn't say "I didn't forget" he basically said why won't you let it stay forgotten.

He said, "Why won't you let me forget?"

Which means he hasn't forgotten. He wants to, but he can't and Alessa won't let him.

WANTING TO FORGET IS NOT THE SAME AS FORGETTING.

If she's in denial that means she has her own version of the truth if that truth isn't reality then she has forgotten what reality is. (You really need to learn word preference and synonym and other basic elements of grammar you should've learned in your first year of school).

She didn't forget what reality was, her sense of reality was impaired.

Origins: good ending if you beat the game. Bad ending if you kill monsters?!?! So if he kills monsters he must've been a murderer?

Homecoming: If you don't kill your mom well then it must be all a dream. If you don't forgive your father well then he must've killed you already... If you don't do either you must be Pyramid Head?

Shattered Memories: If your dad was good person you'll accept that he died. If your dad was a loser a sex addict or a drunk You deny he died because that's the kind of person I'd want around Except you also write him off as a good person.

There is no coherent themes here at all and guess what the psychological profile advertised in Shattered Memories as it's main feature was used in Silent Hill 2 but much better.

You can say that about any game in the series.

In Silent Hill, if Haryr uses the motorcycle key on the motorcycle and kills Cybil, he died in a car crash.

In Silent Hill 2, if James examines Angela's Knife and runs around with low health he kills himself. If James spends a lot of time with Maria, he leaves town with her and learns absolutely nothing. If he collects the White Chrism, Lost Memories book, Obsidian Goblet and Crimson Ceremony book he tries to resurrect Mary.

In Silent Hill 3 if Heather kill lots of creatures, take lots of damage or forgive the confessor, she becomes possessed and kill Douglas.

In Silent Hill 4, if Henry doesn't keep Eileen from getting hurt but does remove the hauntings in the apartment, she dies. If Henry doesn't keep Eileen from getting hurt and doesn't remove the hauntings in the apartment they both die.

You mean removed as if never existed? Because that's word preference.

In order to remove something, it has to exist first.

I never said the emotion in the conversation was tense or aggressive.

Again you implied it to be a negative one.

Which somehow makes the conversation tense and aggressive?

Exactly, it added to the story while following what was already there.

Really? Because if it did that Pyramid Head wouldn't be there and also it wouldn't just be a dream. (Hospital ending has been confirmed to be the "true" ending.)

Only because you don't understand it.

1. Themes of sex and death are both in your face and not subtle at all.

What's wrong with that?

2. Creatures are all naked despite Alex's trauma having nothing to do with sexual themes.

So, in your mind, naked = sexual?

3. Pyramid Head cannot exist without James.

Pyramid Head has been shown to exist without James.

I understand quite well that this game is not a Silent Hill game but some rendition of the Movie which has nothing to do with Silent Hill but shares it's title.

It's an entry that adds to the story while following what was already there.

Woah woah woah I'm just gonna stop you right here. That's a coffin, a tomb it's where they're burried and the inscription is nothing more than a grave stone. Also nothing states this your just trying to work in the fact that his name is on the plaque as fact that he had to be the one to die which he didn't according to the ritual.

Alex's observations refer to them as altars.

b) Sacrificing the child whose name is on the altar by the ordained method.

Not true again just that they would be given up to the water he died in water.

Joshua wasn't sacrificed.

Neither of those were qualifications your just making it up as you go.

No, I'm not.

And you just said he drowned.

He did drown. He wasn't sacrificed.

And no it does not have to be someone of the Shepherd family all the memo said as we went over already was that Adam Shepherd would assure that it would happen and it did.

No, he didn't.

We do, both are described as only children in cut scenes, memos or both.

Which cutscenes? Which memos?

I'm assuming you're still trying to say it's the "Boogeyman" or whatever.

Yeah.

But you're just feigning ignorance. Or as your word preference seems to be You're in "denial".

Which is interesting to hear coming from someone who's in denial that Pyramid Head can appear to people other than James.

You know it's him but you just won't admit it.

I acknowledge the similarities but reject the inference, which is well within my right to do as Tomm Hulett has said.

It's got a character in it that's going to appear in Downpour.

Entirely fucking irrelevant.

He looks set to replace Pyramid Head as mascot of the series, having appeared in one comic book and two games.

BAM!!! Just now you have confirmed that Denial and Inaccurate Memories are synonymous.

No, I didn't.

I said that Alex denied Joshua was dead because he couldn't remember Joshua dying.

The denial actually came first.

Thus you have confirmed that Silent Hill Origins-Shattered Memories are copies of Silent Hill 2.

Nope, as always you are jumping to conclusions.

But he did think he was protecting people, which is what's important.

No it's not his delusions didn't show that at all.

Yes, they did. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXhBW7DIXhQ&t=1m51s]

Alex: "No? That's not true. I'm a soldier, I protect people."

And Alex wasn't sacrificed, so the pact was broken.

No Josh was a Shepherd kid and died by drowning it was fulfilled.

He wasn't sacrificed.

No I just told you what it means. He can die by any means necessary just that his corpse has to be put in water. The game misinterprets it's own words with the bath thing and the tomb shows this as well.

Are you seriously suggesting that the writers who wrote the story for the game didn't understand their own creation? And that you understand it better than them?

Also how could you bury the Bartlett kid alive in the graveyard

Who said that Joey was buried alive in Rose Heights Cemetery?

and then somehow have him end up in the grave planned for him in Silent Hill?

Which grave?

For that matter why was mayor Bartlett in Silent Hill?

Most probably maintaining the atrium in the Grand Hotel.

Teleported like you because you can't teleport Silent Hill doesn't do that.

It did for Alex.

It's a giant coffin not an alter.

It's an altar.

The plaque is a list of names buried there. Which doesn't make sense! Since according to the sacrifice windows they were supposed to be burried in the earth water blade? and suffocation? so half of them are methods of murder and the other half are locations/methods of murder?

The plaques are lists of sacrifices. The game doesn't say that's where they're buried.

This my friend

I'm not your friend, buddy!

is logical fallacy.

Only in your mind.

That just means he'll assure it happens not that he himself would personally do it.

And he didn't assure it happened. Which means that he was in dereliction of duty.

No the only reason you think that's the case is because you think it's an alter

It is an altar. The game itself identifies them as altars in Alex's observations.

I quote:

"This is the sacrificial altar for the Fitch family. This must be the altar where Doctor Fitch put Scarlet after he dismembered her?"

"This is the Bartlett's sacrificial altar. This must be where Mayor Bartlett laid Joey's dead body after he buried him alive.

"It's the Holloway sacrificial altar. This must be where Nora was brought after Judge Holloway suffocated her."

altar |ˈôltər|
noun
the table in a Christian church at which the bread and wine are consecrated in communion services.
a table or flat-topped block used as the focus for a religious ritual, esp. for making sacrifices or offerings to a deity.

and well you're an idiot.

Calling people "idiot" doesn't make them wrong.

That was the Bogeyman. Pyramid Head was never in Homecoming.

Oh you're funny. The names are just for players to distinguish them in game they don't hold these (Unless you're reading the immersion breaking tips on the loading screens which are still only for the players and aren't actually in game.)

No, that's his name.

Alex calls him "the Bogeyman" and he's known by no other moniker.

No he does not.

He calls the Bogeyman Knife "Bogeyman Knife" and by extension calls the monster that wields it "the Bogeyman".

Tomm Hulett said that whether the monsters are real or figurative is up to interpretation. Tomm Hutlett is an idiot the world physically manifests the monsters this is what Alessa left the town with the power to do (Except in Origins it just kind of happens).

Calling someone an idiot doesn't make them wrong. It makes you look immature.

He can't exist without James and does not show up in the presence of anyone other than Maria (Who is also made from James' mind)

Pyramid Head has been shown to exist without James in Silent Hill: The Arcade.

So he holds a pen knife? Cause it looked alot bigger. Similar: showing resemblance in qualities, characteristics, or appearance; alike but not identical

The knife changes size.

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/bogeymanknife.png/]

Nope Silent Hill 2 proves this cannot happen. This isn't influence this is blatant rip-off.

Book of Lost Memories and Takayoshi Sato have proved that this can happen. [http://coregamer.web.simplesnet.pt/sato.html]

"The place Silent Hill is used to be the place of execution, away from cities. That was secret and sacred place. Heinous criminals are transferred to that place and get executed. That place existed only for that reason. Thus all village people are executioners or family of executioners. Executioners needed to wear a mask at the event so they do not directly witness their spear when it was piercing flesh. Time have past, only memory of execution lingered, got enhanced and formed the roaming illusion of Silent Hill. Pyramid head is distorted memory of the executioners."

Wrong again the picture was created by James' vision of Pyramid Head it was not a picture of an executioner it WAS pyramid head.

You still haven't proved that.

"It's Him".

James is an unreliable narrator [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnreliableNarrator]. He also has trouble distinguishing between Mary, his wife, and Maria, a manifestation.

it's not even of the executioners it's Pyramid Head, James even confirms. James: "It's him."

That doesn't prove that the painting is a manifestation. You keep using James's comments despite the fact that he's an unreliable narrator.

At the time, James also thought that Mary died of her illness three years ago and that she sent him a letter telling him that she was waiting for him in Silent Hill.

We both know how that worked out.

At the time, James also thought that Mary died of her illness three years ago and that she sent him a letter telling him that she was waiting for him in Silent Hill.

We both know how that worked out.

1. he was denial as in he forgot? yes, yes he did.

Uh, okay? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove.

2. That really doesn't mean anything how he remembered events of a repressed memory and how he remembered something that he's encountered several times in the day are completely different especially cause we were there for this and we as the audience can confirm it.

I was showing to you that James is an unreliable narrator and that his comments before the revelation can't be used to prove anything.

Your Star Wars comparison doesn't explain anything.

Yea it did.

No it didn't.

So... 2 seconds later your going to feign ignorance? Your word preference is very specifically ignorant.

You said, "Star wars proves this wrong."

How does Star Wars prove that Shattered Memories isn't part of the Silent Hill series?

Yea just read the memos in Silent Hill 1.

Which memos?

At least have the courtesy to provide them for me the same way I provided memos for you.

It is.

Not according to Tomm Hulett.

You are ignorant.

Actually, given your lack of knowledge concerning Origins and Homecoming, I would say that you are ignorant.