Target Audience

[Metalix Knightmare]

You know, I don't know when censorship was redefined as the government trying to suppress speech and not just any attempt to suppress speech or knowledge.

Was it around the time that the negative connotations of censorship started to be applied to your ideology and, wanting to avoid that stigma, you hide behind a definition of your creation?

It honestly wouldn't be the first time the SJW types started to redefine words on an as needed basis.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

that doesn't make it any less morally wrong.

What is morally wrong about it?

I was pulled because a bunch of soccer moms found it morally offensive.

Replace "soccer moms" with "survivors of sexual assault and victims of the sex industry" and you might have something there. Is it really so difficult to imagine those types of people being sincerely offended by a game that tacitly encourages you to murder prostitutes (statistically one of the groups with the highest percentage of victimization, physically and sexually)?

Sorry to get to you so late on this one, but I just kept palming my face every time I looked at your post for awhile there.

First off, if we're going to start making ALL of our entertainment and such with trigger warnings in mind, then we might as well just end civilization and go back to the caves, and even THAT would probably trigger a traumatic experience in a number of people. Do you have ANY idea whatsoever as to what could trigger or offend someone who has gone through a traumatic experience? FREAKING ANYTHING! All that needs to happen is for the brain to end up latching on to a specific aspect of the event. A person assaulted in an elevator could be triggered by say, enclosed spaces, muzak, elevators, or even the color of their assailant's clothing.

Secondly, doing everything you can to avoid triggers is actually a REALLY freaking bad idea. All that will end up doing is constantly reenforcing that you were, and are a victim. That you have been soild in some way, or that you are weak. The best way of dealing with triggers is to try and overcome them. Make the fear no longer have any power over you.

Finally, WHERE THE FREAK WERE HAVE THESE SURVIVORS BEEN, AND WHY ARE THEY GETTING UPSET NOW!? The whole killing prostitutes for refunds thing has been around since GTA3 at the very least, and GTA5 has been out for almost two freaking years! It seems a little odd that it's only NOW that they're getting upset by this thing.

 

[Azure23]

that doesn't make it any less morally wrong.

What is morally wrong about it?

I was pulled because a bunch of soccer moms found it morally offensive.

Replace "soccer moms" with "survivors of sexual assault and victims of the sex industry" and you might have something there. Is it really so difficult to imagine those types of people being sincerely offended by a game that tacitly encourages you to murder prostitutes (statistically one of the groups with the highest percentage of victimization, physically and sexually)?

Sorry to get to you so late on this one, but I just kept palming my face every time I looked at your post for awhile there.

First off, if we're going to start making ALL of our entertainment and such with trigger warnings in mind, then we might as well just end civilization and go back to the caves, and even THAT would probably trigger a traumatic experience in a number of people. Do you have ANY idea whatsoever as to what could trigger or offend someone who has gone through a traumatic experience? FREAKING ANYTHING! All that needs to happen is for the brain to end up latching on to a specific aspect of the event. A person assaulted in an elevator could be triggered by say, enclosed spaces, muzak, elevators, or even the color of their assailant's clothing.

Secondly, doing everything you can to avoid triggers is actually a REALLY freaking bad idea. All that will end up doing is constantly reenforcing that you were, and are a victim. That you have been soild in some way, or that you are weak. The best way of dealing with triggers is to try and overcome them. Make the fear no longer have any power over you.

Finally, WHERE THE FREAK WERE HAVE THESE SURVIVORS BEEN, AND WHY ARE THEY GETTING UPSET NOW!? The whole killing prostitutes for refunds thing has been around since GTA3 at the very least, and GTA5 has been out for almost two freaking years! It seems a little odd that it's only NOW that they're getting upset by this thing.

No problem, and sorry about making a post so facepalm-worthy, I hope your forehead doesn't have a big handprint on it now.

Look, I didn't say anything about triggers in my post for one very good reason. Being triggered and being offended, are not the same thing. People who equate the two generally really piss me off because they clearly have no idea what it's like living with PTSD. That said, I have a pretty good idea what triggers me, as I am a survivor of sexual assault and I've worked very hard with my therapist to discover and isolate what triggers my flashbacks (by the way I'm not upset at your assumption that I don't know what I'm taking about, generally people assume someone has not been raped, and that's fine).
And once again, being offended and having a flashback triggered are not the same thing. Generally if I'm offended I'm not overcome with fear, I don't start shaking uncontrollably, I don't remember in vivid, perfect detail an event that almost ended my life. It looks like you played I have no mouth and I must scream and got your working understanding of sexual assault and triggers from there, and frankly, it's not that bad a representation, but speaking to a few real survivors might've given you a better understanding.

Anyway, to address another point. You said that if we were to make all of our entertainment with trigger warnings in mind we should just end civilization, and I'm not sure I agree with that. While triggers can be incredibly diverse, you can generally assume that anything with a depiction of a violent rape is going to trigger someone, and put a small, non intrusive warning on the box, cover, poster, whatever. Hell I even know some people who'd see that sort of thing, assume the movie, game, book, etc is hardcore and be more likely to consume that particular piece of media, edgy as they are. I fail to see how said small, non intrusive warning for a very common trigger would "end all civilization."

I'm very glad that you don't want to reinforce narratives of victim hood, that's a healthy, progressive viewpoint. But you can do that and still be sensitive to other people. Shock therapy is in fact not the most effective form of therapy for the vast majority of sexual assault victims. It's been twelve years since my assault and I in no way feel soiled or weak. I didn't build up a resistance to triggers by being exposed to them, which you seem to suggest (I could be entirely wrong here, that's just my interpretation). I just came to terms with things over time and with the help of a series of therapists and a very wonderful girlfriend (now my fiancé).

As to where these people have been since GTA3? I have no idea. People become aware of things at different times. Perhaps they knew of the game but not the action they took issue with until they walked in on a family member killing a prostitute or something. Perhaps they had no idea what GTA was until someone told them and they looked into it. I can't tell you because I am not them. And neither are you. Neither of us are in a position to make assumptions about when they became aware of it.

I responded to your original post because I felt like you were disingenuously (or perhaps not, more than a few people in this thread have weighed in without reading the original petition) misrepresenting both the character of the petitioners and the form of their outrage. They are not some parent watch association character-assassinating your favorite game, they are women who have experienced sexual violence and victimization at the hands of the illegal sex trade. I can empathize with them and understand their feelings of outrage (that I don't particularly share, by the way. It's gross, but the whole game is gross), even if I disagree with how they've chosen to handle it. I feel like an awareness campaign about the content of the game would have been much more helpful to parents who were considering buying this game for their children, but that's neither here nor there, they did what they did within their rights.

I hope this post is less facepalm-worthy for you, and at least a bit helpful in understanding my viewpoint.

Edit: just realized I wrote a damn essay, sorry about the length.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

that doesn't make it any less morally wrong.

What is morally wrong about it?

I was pulled because a bunch of soccer moms found it morally offensive.

Replace "soccer moms" with "survivors of sexual assault and victims of the sex industry" and you might have something there. Is it really so difficult to imagine those types of people being sincerely offended by a game that tacitly encourages you to murder prostitutes (statistically one of the groups with the highest percentage of victimization, physically and sexually)?

Sorry to get to you so late on this one, but I just kept palming my face every time I looked at your post for awhile there.

First off, if we're going to start making ALL of our entertainment and such with trigger warnings in mind, then we might as well just end civilization and go back to the caves, and even THAT would probably trigger a traumatic experience in a number of people. Do you have ANY idea whatsoever as to what could trigger or offend someone who has gone through a traumatic experience? FREAKING ANYTHING! All that needs to happen is for the brain to end up latching on to a specific aspect of the event. A person assaulted in an elevator could be triggered by say, enclosed spaces, muzak, elevators, or even the color of their assailant's clothing.

Secondly, doing everything you can to avoid triggers is actually a REALLY freaking bad idea. All that will end up doing is constantly reenforcing that you were, and are a victim. That you have been soild in some way, or that you are weak. The best way of dealing with triggers is to try and overcome them. Make the fear no longer have any power over you.

Finally, WHERE THE FREAK WERE HAVE THESE SURVIVORS BEEN, AND WHY ARE THEY GETTING UPSET NOW!? The whole killing prostitutes for refunds thing has been around since GTA3 at the very least, and GTA5 has been out for almost two freaking years! It seems a little odd that it's only NOW that they're getting upset by this thing.

No problem, and sorry about making a post so facepalm-worthy, I hope your forehead doesn't have a big handprint on it now.

Look, I didn't say anything about triggers in my post for one very good reason. Being triggered and being offended, are not the same thing. People who equate the two generally really piss me off because they clearly have no idea what it's like living with PTSD. That said, I have a pretty good idea what triggers me, as I am a survivor of sexual assault and I've worked very hard with my therapist to discover and isolate what triggers my flashbacks (by the way I'm not upset at your assumption that I don't know what I'm taking about, generally people assume someone has not been raped, and that's fine).
And once again, being offended and having a flashback triggered are not the same thing. Generally if I'm offended I'm not overcome with fear, I don't start shaking uncontrollably, I don't remember in vivid, perfect detail an event that almost ended my life. It looks like you played I have no mouth and I must scream and got your working understanding of sexual assault and triggers from there, and frankly, it's not that bad a representation, but speaking to a few real survivors might've given you a better understanding.

Anyway, to address another point. You said that if we were to make all of our entertainment with trigger warnings in mind we should just end civilization, and I'm not sure I agree with that. While triggers can be incredibly diverse, you can generally assume that anything with a depiction of a violent rape is going to trigger someone, and put a small, non intrusive warning on the box, cover, poster, whatever. Hell I even know some people who'd see that sort of thing, assume the movie, game, book, etc is hardcore and be more likely to consume that particular piece of media, edgy as they are. I fail to see how said small, non intrusive warning for a very common trigger would "end all civilization."

I'm very glad that you don't want to reinforce narratives of victim hood, that's a healthy, progressive viewpoint. But you can do that and still be sensitive to other people. Shock therapy is in fact not the most effective form of therapy for the vast majority of sexual assault victims. It's been twelve years since my assault and I in no way feel soiled or weak. I didn't build up a resistance to triggers by being exposed to them, which you seem to suggest (I could be entirely wrong here, that's just my interpretation). I just came to terms with things over time and with the help of a series of therapists and a very wonderful girlfriend (now my fiancé).

As to where these people have been since GTA3? I have no idea. People become aware of things at different times. Perhaps they knew of the game but not the action they took issue with until they walked in on a family member killing a prostitute or something. Perhaps they had no idea what GTA was until someone told them and they looked into it. I can't tell you because I am not them. And neither are you. Neither of us are in a position to make assumptions about when they became aware of it.

I responded to your original post because I felt like you were disingenuously (or perhaps not, more than a few people in this thread have weighed in without reading the original petition) misrepresenting both the character of the petitioners and the form of their outrage. They are not some parent watch association character-assassinating your favorite game, they are women who have experienced sexual violence and victimization at the hands of the illegal sex trade. I can empathize with them and understand their feelings of outrage (that I don't particularly share, by the way. It's gross, but the whole game is gross), even if I disagree with how they've chosen to handle it. I feel like an awareness campaign about the content of the game would have been much more helpful to parents who were considering buying this game for their children, but that's neither here nor there, they did what they did within their rights.

I hope this post is less facepalm-worthy for you, and at least a bit helpful in understanding my viewpoint.

Edit: just realized I wrote a damn essay, sorry about the length.

Know what? You're alright. Sorry if I came off as rather rude to you in any of my posts.

 

[Kameburger]

Spamming my inbox is a great way to guarantee I don't read what you have to say.

If you don't have the courage to address me in public, don't bother addressing me further. Any message I have from you is going to be deleted unread.

OH MY GOD, how do you do this? Not many people have ever pushed my buttons the way you do.
I have never come across someone so hell bent on ending every sentence in some condescending insult.

Fine public it is then.

Incidentally I asked you not to respond to that post as I was done discussing that topic with you. I won't be responding.

No, I expected you wouldn't. It's an excellent cop-out. I addressed your points, but you get to play the "offended" card and duck being factually wrong.

I don't care. I've spoken my peace and if you want to continue your dishonesty, that's your call. But it is dishonest, and no amount of pretend offense will change that.

Continue to cop out all you want.

Also since I'm sick of this, I went through your original post, point by point..

You made a factually incorrect assertion of motive, one based on some pretty lazy reasoning.

I made no such assertion. My point was to imply that we have entered a time where feminism is a touchy topic. Companies do not want to be seen as anti-women and do not want the public media scandal. Therefor, a group that has problems with Grand Theft Auto for what ever reason would be smart to make it an issue involving the mistreatment of women. First of all this isn't a factual statement, it's an analysis of events. Secondly if you feel that reasoning is intellectually lazy I beg you to tell me where it is productive of you to point that out. Frankly I just think you wanted to insult me, if that's not the case prove me wrong.

But now your argument is a non-sequitur. Nobody has to be "yay, rape" to be relevant to this issue, or the petition in question. Nobody has to say "actually, sexual violence is a good thing" to be at issue. And oddly enough, one can actually question the facts without being considered a misogynist.

My argument is not a non-sequitur as it does logically follow your point. structured your sentence in such a way to imply that many people probably have rationalized sexual violence intentionally or unintentionally in their opposition to this petition. The point I made was that many times calling something "Pro-" is a way to imply that the other side is "Anti-" which is a common, and one might even say core political concept that you see all the time in controversial arguments(see pro-life, or anti-war for the reverse). My argument was that no right minded individual is doing this intentionally, and if they are, their opinion is certainly in the minority.

I find your use of "never the less" less troublesome than your use of false equivalence, for the record.

Now here is the kicker. I committed a writing faux pas which I had noted in an edit I made seconds after posing and then proceeded to accuse me of drawing a false equivalency. What false equivalency did I make? Please point this out because I don't feel I did that. If you are implying possibly that I equated people who rationalized sexual violence to people who cheer rape, I don't feel I did that as I felt that I was clarifying how I view two groups of people. If you wanted to insist that this point was a false equivalency, I invite you to argue it with logic instead of resorting to allegations without backing it up.

Now for your use of the term "dishonesty."
WHAT DISHONESTY? That I implicated feminism in a debate about a game that is being accused of having violence against women? DISHONESTY? Here is what I don't understand. Why the hell do you use such hyperbolic language to describe something that you're basically fantasizing about.

No. I am offended because you called me lazy dishonest and accused me of doing something i didn't and then accused me of being offended to cover it up. If you don't believe this defend yourself with points, or else you're just being an intellectual coward, insulting someone because you can't refute their points with actual reasoning. I'm not making baseless insults to you, I am honestly offended by what ever it is you feel your doing because I feel like you are reacting to crimes I never committed. Who is being dishonest here?

 

[sumanoskae]

I think you bring up a very important point; more damaging than an official government sanction would be a culture of fear. Nobody should be able to twist arms like this. Jack Thompson may be out of the picture, but people like him are still around, and they won't hesitate to go for blood if they get the chance. Video games are safer than they once were, but the culture at large still doesn't place them in the same camp as other art forms, and a large section of the public would still be on board for using them as scapegoats.

The fact is that the industry still occupies kind of a precarious position; the AAA gaming world is growing increasingly inflated and unstable, and the culture as a whole isn't going to act as a safety net if things start to collapse.

If a bunch of movie studios collapsed tomorrow, there are plenty of people with lots of money who are interested in keeping the art of film alive. If the same thing happened to video games, I fear the powers that be would treat it like a vacuum of power; seldom few of them would have an interest in, say, preserving the master copies of classic niche games for sale later.

Most of what you described is true for music, books and movies, too. Hell, the people in question are often the same people. To argue that there's some different threat for video games seems like special pleading, especially since the folks who wanted Body Count's record pulled for "Cop Killer" are still around and willing to jump at the chance and the NRA is still rallying against movies.

There will always be people "like" Jack Thompson, and there will always be people "like" McCarthy, and there will always be people "like" Torquemada, and there will always be people "like" Vlad the Impaler. It's a fairly useless identifier with no power in the real world, best relegated to conspiracy theories. Without any evidence that such a person provides a real, credible threat, you might as well talk about those others, as well. I mean, we don't have proof that a book burning movement couldn't erupt at any moment, and hostilities rise whenever something like Harry Potter hits the scene.

Even if every book was burned and every film banned, the arts themselves occupy a secure place in the collective unconscious. Almost nobody will contest that films, books, and music are pieces of art. There exist organizations run by famed and acclaimed actors, household name people, whose sole purpose is maintaining old films, to ensure they aren't lost to the ages. The people running the AAA game industry can't even be bothered to program their consoles with backwards compatibility.

The people who have the most influence over the game industry and the public image of video games, for the most part, don't care about them.

So yes, Jack Thompson would burn a book as easily as he would ban a game, but books have the benefit of being a widely accepted art form.

I can foresee no future in which it is impossible to find The Count of Monte Cirsto; I cannot say the same for Planescape: Torment.

 

[sumanoskae]

That doesn't make the thing you agreed with any more true. That you're aware of the Dixie Chicks means you were agreeing with something you knew wasn't true. Holy crap, that makes this more absurd.

Other forms of art have been subject to censorship; fair point. My position is that games stand to lose more from censorship than other mediums. I should have made that clear.

Again, the "issue" here is the notion that this wouldn't happen with other media. That it has happened before makes this issue not true. And since you seem to agree that it has happened, there's not much room for discussion.

Anything else would misrepresent what I said.

I was under the impression you thought the reaction on the part of gamers was overblown, not simply because they were mistaken about censorship in other media, but also as compared to the reactions of the communities within said alternate media.

The Escapist is a gaming website, so anything related to gaming will occupy the discussion more so than it would under more neutral circumstances. If you're going to assert that "Less of a deal" was made about the Dixie Chicks, you should consider the volume of the two groups.

GTA V is one of the best selling games of all time, so it stands to reason that many people who take an interest in games will be keyed in on news surrounding it.

Do the Dixie Chicks have an audience the size of GTA V? I wasn't aware that they did. I dare say that if such an audience existed, just as big a "Deal" would have been made. This isn't evidence in a difference between the gaming community and the music community, it's an example of a less popular product compared to a more popular one.