Target Audience

[Redryhno]

Snip

I played the game and I'm complaining about it. Just because some numb nuts couldn't do it properly doesn't mean it's impossible for there to be anything wrong with a game.

Because I struggle to think of any female characters that have any meaningful impacts on the plot. Despite there being quite a few female characters around. Or are allowed to do anything important. The closest I can think of is the hacker that helps out on the heists. And when GTA's most progressive woman is a goddamn hacker, I kind of have to role my eyes.

I said they had a reason, I didn't say I liked their reason. Personally I think what they're doing is stupid, but it's their choice to do it. And if that happened I'd do what I would do if I was an Australian gamer who wanted GTA V. Send a message to them saying "Aw, that's cute, you think a shop at your store," and then go off to buy it somewhere else. I'm not the type of person who is going to lose my shit because every store doesn't cater to my every need.

I don't mean to snipe, but for someone with a Heide Knight avatar, you have to agree that it's pretty funny to see you criticizing another game for the bad portrayal of their female characters. Considering that the worst shit happened directly because of pretty much the only women in that game/universe/narrative/setting, you could easily make the argument that it's just, if not more, sexist than GTA in this context. That being said, I haven't played this new GTA, so excuse me for assuming it's like the rest, taking the piss out of and making everyone a bad character/progressive role model, not just the females.

That being said, from what I've seen of the Australian market, most don't care about this in an economic sense, because nobody shops there for their games unless they're looking for a deal they can't find on the internet. As a result, I don't much care they did this except that it was done with lies and twisted truths, something that really doesn't have any place outside of person-to-person interactions, and even then it's only under certain conditions.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I played the game and I'm complaining about it. Just because some numb nuts couldn't do it properly doesn't mean it's impossible for there to be anything wrong with a game.

Because I struggle to think of any female characters that have any meaningful impacts on the plot. Despite there being quite a few female characters around. Or are allowed to do anything important. The closest I can think of is the hacker that helps out on the heists. And when GTA's most progressive woman is a goddamn hacker, I kind of have to role my eyes.

I said they had a reason, I didn't say I liked their reason. Personally I think what they're doing is stupid, but it's their choice to do it. And if that happened I'd do what I would do if I was an Australian gamer who wanted GTA V. Send a message to them saying "Aw, that's cute, you think a shop at your store," and then go off to buy it somewhere else. I'm not the type of person who is going to lose my shit because every store doesn't cater to my every need.

I don't mean to snipe, but for someone with a Heide Knight avatar, you have to agree that it's pretty funny to see you criticizing another game for the bad portrayal of their female characters. Considering that the worst shit happened directly because of pretty much the only women in that game/universe/narrative/setting, you could easily make the argument that it's just, if not more, sexist than GTA in this context. That being said, I haven't played this new GTA, so excuse me for assuming it's like the rest, taking the piss out of and making everyone a bad character/progressive role model, not just the females.

That being said, from what I've seen of the Australian market, most don't care about this in an economic sense, because nobody shops there for their games unless they're looking for a deal they can't find on the internet. As a result, I don't much care they did this except that it was done with lies and twisted truths, something that really doesn't have any place outside of person-to-person interactions, and even then it's only under certain conditions.

I don't even know what game this thing is from. I just googled "White knight" when the phrase was pretty popular, it was pissing me off and I was thinking "Well who the fuck am I to prove them wrong"? And yeah, that game does sound pretty sexist. And if it'll stop things like this from happening again, I guess I'll bring back my old Dark Souls avatar. And for all the "role model" crap, I can't help but notice that even though they're not trying to make the characters role models, they still manage to make men who are both empowered and disempowered, while women are firmly stuck in the disempowered camp.

Pretty much the same camp I'm in.

 

[spartenX]

Snip

Point out the part where I said that, because I didn't. Nowhere did I advocate for the pulling of GTA V. I just said that it was indeed kinda sexist. Except the game does have female characters, a lot of female characters. And none of them do anything important. Really Rockstar? All of those characters and you couldn't decide that just maybe one of them could do something important?

Yeah and it failed miserably because no one decided to let little things like facts get in the way of their moral outrage. Which sounds a lot like another petition that we're talking about. And my point still stands. If you want to get snippy with demographics because of what vocal minorities say, you better be prepared to see that line of logic through to the end. Because if that's the case you need to accept a LOT of unpleasant things about gamers.

except that doesn't matter. it was satire, sarcasm, made to point out how stupid the logic is. it was not meant to be a call for the actual banning of the book, but to point out how you can use the same logic that got GTA pulled, to get many other important works pulled.

We are not talking about banning here, we are talking about a private company's decision to not sell a product. Precedent? Hate to tell you this, but there's no precedent. This has already been going on for a long time. I would like to point out this.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Stores decide not to carry stuff ALL THE DAMN TIME! I worked at a walmart and was told to take all the GTA VC copies off the shelf. They were no longer carrying that title, because of complaints. I never saw a huge blow out over it, only some disappointed guys who went to the Future Shop next door and got it.

This stuff happens and private companies have been doing it for years, you're too damn late to change this stuff now.

This stuff has happened before and it will happen again. I hate to say it, but people getting mad about this for the most part are pretty much like the people who signed the petition. Mostly reactionary and only doing it because it was shoved in their face.

but you can use this logic to justify anything! what's that you say? people are getting beat up for being gay? well it's happened lots of times before, why are you so worked up about it now? what's that, chapters has removed all copies of the harry poter books from it's shelves because of moral outrage regarding the book showing magic used positively? so what, company's don't sell products all the time, you only care because you actually read the books.

this logic is frankly horrifying, ignoring terrible things being done or letting certain groups censor others (or wait, I mean let certain groups convince others to censor themselves because there is such a big difference) simply because "that's the way it is". no, that logic is nothing but harmful to people, and it cannot be used justify something. when you see that their is something wrong with the way society is operating, you need to try and actually fix it, not just shrug and say "who cares, that's just the way things are".

 

[EternallyBored]

Snip

I played the game and I'm complaining about it. Just because some numb nuts couldn't do it properly doesn't mean it's impossible for there to be anything wrong with a game.

Because I struggle to think of any female characters that have any meaningful impacts on the plot. Despite there being quite a few female characters around. Or are allowed to do anything important. The closest I can think of is the hacker that helps out on the heists. And when GTA's most progressive woman is a goddamn hacker, I kind of have to role my eyes.

I said they had a reason, I didn't say I liked their reason. Personally I think what they're doing is stupid, but it's their choice to do it. And if that happened I'd do what I would do if I was an Australian gamer who wanted GTA V. Send a message to them saying "Aw, that's cute, you think a shop at your store," and then go off to buy it somewhere else. I'm not the type of person who is going to lose my shit because every store doesn't cater to my every need.

I don't mean to snipe, but for someone with a Heide Knight avatar, you have to agree that it's pretty funny to see you criticizing another game for the bad portrayal of their female characters. Considering that the worst shit happened directly because of pretty much the only women in that game/universe/narrative/setting, you could easily make the argument that it's just, if not more, sexist than GTA in this context. That being said, I haven't played this new GTA, so excuse me for assuming it's like the rest, taking the piss out of and making everyone a bad character/progressive role model, not just the females.

That being said, from what I've seen of the Australian market, most don't care about this in an economic sense, because nobody shops there for their games unless they're looking for a deal they can't find on the internet. As a result, I don't much care they did this except that it was done with lies and twisted truths, something that really doesn't have any place outside of person-to-person interactions, and even then it's only under certain conditions.

I'm pretty sure erttheking never actually said that GTAV was too sexist for him to enjoy, enjoying something doesn't mean you can't criticize it or not have problems with it, I love GTAV but there are plenty of things I could complain about in it. Likewise, Erttheking likely likes the property his avatar is from despite potential issues with women or sexism. I don't know him personally, but I know he has been one of the ones posting in the past about how a property having sexist elements or other such things don't make the work neccessarily bad, or anyone bad for liking them. Which is kind of the point, you can like something enough to set it as your avatar while still having issues or criticisms of it.

 

[Eric the Orange]

So, if you use the word in a fairly broad sense, discrimination is not a moral issue?

That statement is what in legal proceedings is known as a false equivalence. Discrimination becomes a moral issue when it can be shown to harm to the discriminated. Like in racial profiling for example. This case isn't hurting anyone. Their are plenty of places the game is still available.

There's also the other moral issue of outright lying about something to get it pulled from store shelves because you don't like it. It would be like if I started a petition to remove Apple computers from stores because they spontaneously burst into flames when it's patently not true.

First off that would be a moral issue on the petitioners not the retailers. Second I wouldn't say it's lying. Lying implies known falsehood. I think the petitioners are more ignorant than lying. They truly believe what they said is true, so they are not lying.

Pulling something from store shelves because it doesn't sell well is perfectly reasonable. But that's not why they pulled it. If you wanted to pull something because of questionable quality, that's fine too, but why is Assassin's Creed Unity still getting sold? No, the press release from Target pointed solely at this nonsense outcry based on a propaganda screed of a petition from people who know nothing about what they want to have removed from shelves.

Well yes that's true. Anyone who takes more than a glance at this can see their reason is to placate a group not because they think it's wrong. If they did they probably wouldn't stock most M rated games. So I can see that dishonesty about their reasoning being seen as immoral. But definitely a very minor moral issue.

It'd be like if a bunch of people who didn't like/had never eaten tofu demanded it be taken off the shelves. The store might rather keep it because it brings a different clientele through the doors who may buy other things as well. Should we just give in to the loonies even if there are a lot of them?

Well that's a business decision. Is it a good or bad business decision. I can't really say because I don't know what targets sales numbers are.

Finally, what would have happened if they just ignored this petition? I imagine absolutely nothing. We're talking about the family demographic here, give me convenience or give me death. There wasn't liable to be a boycott in any situation.

Probably not much. But I figure that the people who made this decision felt this would be better for them.

 

[Eric the Orange]

Imagine I run a grocery store. I can choose what to buy and stock on my shelves. It makes sense business wise to stock what people who go to my store buy. If I get complaints about something I stock I may wish to remove it. Add to that, that the item I'm stocking hasn't been selling very well recently and it seems like an easy call to make those people happy for relatively little cost.

Bananas are your top selling fruit but members of your largest demographic are threatening to boycott the store because they are too phallic. What do you do?

A) You stop selling bananas.
B) You promise to fund genetic modification of bananas to make them less phallic.
C) You section off the banana isle with black drapes and warning signs.
D) You piss off the petitioners by issuing a statement that redicules the issue.
E) You do nothing.
F) You issue a statement stating that you understand the boycotters concerns, claim you are looking into the issue/set up a committee to look into it. This is a lie and you do nothing.


Outcomes:
[Spoilers]
A) You lose out on banana sales, lose profits, strengthen your competition and and show that you can be bullied by future pressure groups. You also anger a gay lobby who were your second biggest demographic, they now boycott your store for homophobia.
B) You piss off anti-GM people and create tabloid scare stories about your produce. You lose more customers than the initial boycott's numbers.
C) You become the subject of national mockery, your sales of bananas go down. You do attract more perverts into your store but they leave confused and angry, buying relatively few bananas.
D) You provoke a full-scale boycott and a ton of bad press.
E) You see a short-term dip as some of the boycotters carry out their threat, most lapse on their threat or move onto other issues.
F) Everything blows over. The boycotters are temporarily appeased and lack the attention span to follow up, by the time they realise you aren't going to do a damn thing (if ever) they have moved on to protesting other bullshit.
[/Spoilers]

I never said it was a GOOD idea. But rather I can see what their logic was.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Satire does not mean you can open your mouth and say whatever stupid shit you want and not have people call you out for it. You need to put intelligent thought into it. Something the people who wrote that petition clearly did not do. Now if you're going to make an ironic statement, more power to you, but try to make it so that you don't come off as ignorant and misinformed as the people you're trying to take the piss out of, it kind of shoots your argument in the foot.

...............You're honestly comparing a game not being sold on a store shelf to a kid getting beaten up for his sexuality...words cannot describe how much that sentence just pissed me off right now. Are you serious? Are you god damn serious? One game is not being sold in one shelf is comparable to sexual discrimination. No. Just fucking no.

And my point is not "Oh it's always happened, what you gonna do," it was "This has always been happening, where the hell have you been this whole time?" I mean if this is such a big fucking deal for you, why are you just NOW realizing that it's happening? Because frankly you only seem to know and care about this because it's part of sensational news.

 

[Redryhno]

I don't even know what game this thing is from. I just googled "White knight" when the phrase was pretty popular, it was pissing me off and I was thinking "Well who the fuck am I to prove them wrong"? And yeah, that game does sound pretty sexist.

Oh dear, that just makes this all the more hilarious then. But then:

And if it'll stop things like this from happening again, I guess I'll bring back my old Dark Souls avatar. And for all the "role model" crap, I can't help but notice that even though they're not trying to make the characters role models, they still manage to make men who are both empowered and disempowered, while women are firmly stuck in the disempowered camp.

Pretty much the same camp I'm in.

Yeah, not sure I want to actually listen to you when it comes to games, since you've got no idea that your avatar's still Souls. Not sure if that's funny or sad.

I don't have much to add, since I haven't played the new one, but I don't really have a problem with it, it's a series that makes a joke out of taking itself seriously as it's based on alot of pulpy material. It's sorta like saying the Borderlands series should be respected as a progressive franchise because it's got a gay guy in it or something.

I'm pretty sure erttheking never actually said that GTAV was too sexist for him to enjoy, enjoying something doesn't mean you can't criticize it or not have problems with it, I love GTAV but there are plenty of things I could complain about in it. Likewise, Erttheking likely likes the property his avatar is from despite potential issues with women or sexism. I don't know him personally, but I know he has been one of the ones posting in the past about how a property having sexist elements or other such things don't make the work neccessarily bad, or anyone bad for liking them. Which is kind of the point, you can like something enough to set it as your avatar while still having issues or criticisms of it.

Yeah, don't mean to be rude, but what the heck are you talking about? I never said he said that, so quit putting words in both our mouths.

Criticizing a game's all well and good, but when the only complaint you hear is that the women are badly represented in a series chock full of bad representations, I can't take it seriously.

 

[UberGott]

If they were actually censoring, I'd imagine a lot more games would. They're currently stocking...

Australia's ratings board* is quite a bit different from the ESRB, though. Far Cry 4, Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare, Dishonored and Telltale's Walking Dead are all rated "MA-15". The only game in your list to be rated R-18 is Watch_Dogs (as is GTAV).

Also of note is that these are both restricted categories, which means it's actually illegal to sell to minors. Quite a gap between how "M" rated games are treated in the states, huh? But that also undercuts the idea of the game encouraging children to repeat the actions therein because it's already being treated the same way pornography is the world over.

Don't get me wrong, Target/Kmart AU (which isn't directly related to Target US) is being ridiculous by pulling this, and I hate the thought of them removing anything due to moral pressure. But ratings are not always equivalent between territories, and AU in particular has its own "thing" going on that's hardly comparable to the rest of the world.

*Is it still the OFLC, or did they change names to the "ACB" a while back? I can't remember and it's been a while since I've read up on Aussie censorship habits. They're fascinating, even if they're also stupid...

 

[spartenX]

Snip

Satire does not mean you can open your mouth and say whatever stupid shit you want and not have people call you out for it. You need to put intelligent thought into it. Something the people who wrote that petition clearly did not do. Now if you're going to make an ironic statement, more power to you, but try to make it so that you don't come off as ignorant and misinformed as the people you're trying to take the piss out of, it kind of shoots your argument in the foot.

you know what I am done on this point. I have tried to point out how whether or not target actually selling the bible didn't matter as the point was that the logic can be used to pull anything off store shelves, even a book that most of the "family market" that got offended hold sacred, but clearly we disagree on that point.

...............You're honestly comparing a game not being sold on a store shelf to a kid getting beaten up for his sexuality...words cannot describe how much that sentence just pissed me off right now. Are you serious? Are you god damn serious? One game is not being sold in one shelf is comparable to sexual discrimination. No. Just fucking no.

I am showing how far the logic you used can be taken, that because something is the norm we should just accept that it happens and not get worked up about it or try to change it. yes that was an extreme example, because that logic can be used to justify sitting by and letting a very wide range of morally repugnant acts go on.

And my point is not "Oh it's always happened, what you gonna do," it was "This has always been happening, where the hell have you been this whole time?" I mean if this is such a big fucking deal for you, why are you just NOW realizing that it's happening? Because frankly you only seem to know and care about this because it's part of sensational news.

and exactly how am I supposed to know that this was happening? maybe by coming on to a gaming website nearly everyday and actually reading about this stuff happening in the news like pretty much everyone else. but obviously there must be some very important reasons that makes that wrong that I'm not seeing, and a whole other way to get information, like maybe telepathy.

before, all I had known about was the shit that thompson tried to pull, or attempt to ban the selling of m-rated games to minors. neither of which actually worked. Far as I ever knew, this was the only case in recent years that I've actually heard of anything like this happening, usually it just gets mocked by people about how stupid the idea is that you could get stuff like this banned because of the moral guardians or reminders that this shit happened in other mediums and was considered terrible.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Ugh. I'm getting frustrated and saying things without thinking. I'm sorry about that. I take it the character you're talking about is the Black Maiden from Demon's Souls? Don't know much about her, can't actually play Demon's Souls due to a lack of a PS3. Truth be told the character you described really isn't sexist now that I think about it, considering she's actually important to the plot. Or maybe she is. I don't know, I didn't play the game. Also Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are different games. I don't know anything about Demon's Souls but I do know that Dark Souls has a few female characters that actually do stuff. It's hardly the best game ever in that regard, but it's still heads and shoulders above the average game in that field. Plus the unisex armor has always been a major plus for me.

No Borderlands is a progressive franchise because it includes female, gay characters and the whatnot and treats them like goddamn human beings. Heck, I can't think of many games that have a male who's canonically bisexual as a playable character. Borderlands 2 is one of them.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I only brought it up because you seem to think that the people who write petition #2 seem can be held to lower standards than the people who wrote petition #1. I hate stuff like that.

#1. This act is hardly repugnant, most certainly nowhere near comparable than someone fearing for his life because of his sexuality. This is more stupid than anything else. #2. My logic never was that, as seen below. #3. I have a transexual friend that I was scared shitless was going to commit suicide on more than one occasion, so I REALLY don't like it when the plights of the LGBT are used to score a few points in an online argument that has nothing to do with them.

Research. And by that I mean going beyond a gaming website, which is hardly something you go to for in depth information on the economic state of pulling things from shelves.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you really care about stuff like this, you need to go out of your way to look for it and not just let the information come to you. If you REALLY care about it.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

I'd point out that if Target/KMart decided that the PR was worth not selling GTA 5 it probably means they weren't expecting to sell a whole lot to begin with. Now I don't live in Australia, but generally when I think Target the first thing I think of is generally not "video games".

Anyways, petition was pretty dumb in principle, but I can't really blame Target for anything business-wise though.

 

[Redryhno]

Snip

Ugh. I'm getting frustrated and saying things without thinking. I'm sorry about that. I take it the character you're talking about is the Black Maiden from Demon's Souls? Don't know much about her, can't actually play Demon's Souls due to a lack of a PS3. Truth be told the character you described really isn't sexist now that I think about it, considering she's actually important to the plot. Or maybe she is. I don't know, I didn't play the game. Also Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are different games. I don't know anything about Demon's Souls but I do know that Dark Souls has a few female characters that actually do stuff. It's hardly the best game ever in that regard, but it's still heads and shoulders above the average game in that field. Plus the unisex armor has always been a major plus for me.

No Borderlands is a progressive franchise because it includes female, gay characters and the whatnot and treats them like goddamn human beings. Heck, I can't think of many games that have a male who's canonically bisexual as a playable character. Borderlands 2 is one of them.

Demon's Souls is a part of the Souls series, just because they're different games doesn't mean parts of both worlds don't overlap. Same as DS2.

And no, I'm talking about the Witch of Izalith and her kids. You know, the ones that tried getting the First Flame powers for themselves and ended up mutants and spawned a handful of abominations that went off and killed alot of the few people that are still actually alive and not Undead or Hollow.

There are no positive female characters in the series, even Gwyndolin, who you can make an argument for as being trans, is a pretty bad example of progressiveness since it encourages people to just raise their kids as the opposite gender if you want to, and that they shouldn't try to be anything but what they were raised as, therefore enforcing gender stereotypes and stifling their individuality.

Unless of course if we go by your interpretation of what is and isn't sexist, then it's perfectly fine because these horrid people playing with powers far beyond their own control contributed to the further downfall of Humanity. Having said that, there's no actual positive male characters either.

Seathe went and trapped his kid in a painted world even more devoid of people to protect her, Gwyn went mad, The Four Kings betrayed everybody, etc..

As for the Borderlands thing...that was meant as a joke....I wasn't aware people took it seriously as a good series in that regard. I think I'm going to go actually...partly because Borderlands is being held up as a symbol of progressiveness when every character in it is varying degrees of batshit insane murderous sociopaths, partly because it's not a new thing to have positive gay and women characters in games, they've been around for thirty years or more, with the majority of them originating from the East where they don't get bogged down in this kind of crap when making characters, they make what's fun or they want to make without caring, but because of that, there's elements that certain groups take issue with other parts of it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Ugh. I'm getting frustrated and saying things without thinking. I'm sorry about that. I take it the character you're talking about is the Black Maiden from Demon's Souls? Don't know much about her, can't actually play Demon's Souls due to a lack of a PS3. Truth be told the character you described really isn't sexist now that I think about it, considering she's actually important to the plot. Or maybe she is. I don't know, I didn't play the game. Also Demon's Souls and Dark Souls are different games. I don't know anything about Demon's Souls but I do know that Dark Souls has a few female characters that actually do stuff. It's hardly the best game ever in that regard, but it's still heads and shoulders above the average game in that field. Plus the unisex armor has always been a major plus for me.

No Borderlands is a progressive franchise because it includes female, gay characters and the whatnot and treats them like goddamn human beings. Heck, I can't think of many games that have a male who's canonically bisexual as a playable character. Borderlands 2 is one of them.

Demon's Souls is a part of the Souls series, just because they're different games doesn't mean parts of both worlds don't overlap. Same as DS2.

And no, I'm talking about the Witch of Izalith and her kids. You know, the ones that tried getting the First Flame powers for themselves and ended up mutants and spawned a handful of abominations that went off and killed alot of the few people that are still actually alive and not Undead or Hollow.

There are no positive female characters in the series, even Gwyndolin, who you can make an argument for as being trans, is a pretty bad example of progressiveness since it encourages people to just raise their kids as the opposite gender if you want to, and that they shouldn't try to be anything but what they were raised as, therefore enforcing gender stereotypes and stifling their individuality.

Unless of course if we go by your interpretation of what is and isn't sexist, then it's perfectly fine because these horrid people playing with powers far beyond their own control contributed to the further downfall of Humanity. Having said that, there's no actual positive male characters either.

Seathe went and trapped his kid in a painted world even more devoid of people to protect her, Gwyn went mad, The Four Kings betrayed everybody, etc..

As for the Borderlands thing...that was meant as a joke....I wasn't aware people took it seriously as a good series in that regard. I think I'm going to go actually...partly because Borderlands is being held up as a symbol of progressiveness when every character in it is varying degrees of batshit insane murderous sociopaths, partly because it's not a new thing to have positive gay and women characters in games, they've been around for thirty years or more, with the majority of them originating from the East where they don't get bogged down in this kind of crap when making characters, they make what's fun or they want to make without caring, but because of that, there's elements that certain groups take issue with other parts of it.

I'm pretty sure Demon Souls and Dark Souls take place in different universes.

I think you misunderstood my argument or I mis-said it, one or the other. I dislike GTA V because while no one is a good person, the men hold more power than the women and they might as well not be there. I like Dark Souls Because while everyone is all over the map morality wise, the power distribution is more even. The Witch of Izalith was one of the High Lords, one of the Four Knights was a woman and Gwyndolin is arguably trans (I disagree with that considering that happened to him against his will, but it's still an interesting look at gender identity). Everyone in that universe is either morally ambiguous or powerless. And it's spread evenly across the genders. That's why I freaking love Dark Souls (Among other things). When I ask for a game to not be sexist, I ask for it to treat it's female characters the same way it treats its male characters, for better or worse (Things that are unique to one gender get an exception). Dark Souls did this, GTA V...not so much.

Yup, just like with Dark Souls. It treats its characters the same. Straight, gay, black, latino, asian, white, male female, no matter what you are, you're a murderous psychopath on this planet. Everyone's equal.

Am I making sense?

 

[the December King]

why dont we let the market decide if the game is bad or not?

The market DID decide. The people who shopped at the store said that they didn't want it.

I mean Jesus, I disagree with Target on this matter, but it's kind of their right to not sell a product they don't want to.

not really, a group of people who may or may have not bought the game, signed a patetition to get it pulled from the store on the false grounds that it was misogynistic

it the most successful entertainment product every created, its clear the market wants the game

unless target provides some figures showing terrible sales and use that as an argument for pulling the game, it makes no sense

Ok let's be perfectly honest here. Did the petition lie about GTA? Yes. But let's not pretend for a second that GTA doesn't have an unhealthy portrayal of women. Not for a damn second. GTA V took a few baby steps and actually had a few cool female characters, but overall it still has a long way to go

It's clear that the GAMING market wants the game. Target is a store that apparently has a very family focused angle. In other words, they are not appealing to the gaming market.

Target is more concerned about parents buying toys for their little kids than gamers in their teens to 20s buying video games (As emphasized by that ad where they advertised GTA V in the sales for toys). That's where the bigger market is.

The market has spoken. The family market.

That is a really good point, erttheking! Sometimes it's helpful to point stuff like that out- If the image Target and Kmart want to have is family-friendly, then this is an acceptable move, as the game is definitely for mature audiences. By this logic, I would assume that some of the other more violently graphic or adult games will also be removed, but that remains to be seen.

 

[TheBestPieEver]

I hate that censorship has become a thing where we can excuse just solely on "private company" excuse. They're basically saying that one customer -the 'soccer mom'- is more important than another customer. I guess it's true in a business sense that their most valuable customer is the soccer mom over the avid video gamer, but that doesn't make it any less morally wrong.

The avid video gamer ain't getting his or her games on target.

 

[BytByte]

By that line of logic than the gamer market is woefully misinformed considering that they wrote up a petition demanding that Target stop selling the Bible on the grounds that it is also sexist. And they didn't let little facts get in the way, facts like Target Doesn't sell the Bible!

So the anti-Petition was a success! Boy, it sure is easy to win when there isn't a struggle in the first place.

 

[irishda]

I hate that censorship has become a thing where we can excuse just solely on "private company" excuse. They're basically saying that one customer -the 'soccer mom'- is more important than another customer. I guess it's true in a business sense that their most valuable customer is the soccer mom over the avid video gamer, but that doesn't make it any less morally wrong.


Also, nobody should listen to Erin. She's a self-absorbed schizophrenic who talks to imaginary video game characters she sees (possibly a symptom of that car accident, but I think it is something that has within her for longer than that).

Considering the venn diagram of people caring about Target not selling GTA and people who were going to buy GTA from Target likely has zero overlap, I'd say they're valuing customers over people who aren't customers.

There's no moral quandry here. Businesses ALWAYS value some customers over others, and those customers are REGULAR customers. There's nothing wrong about a store listening to the people who patronize them more frequently than those who don't.