Teacher Resigns Over Seperate Assemblies (UK)

[ward.]

Hard for me to discuss since I agree with you. I'm not from the UK, but I still believe that religion in all it's shapes and forms should be left out of public education facilities, no matter where you are.

I completely agree with you. You don't know of Humanism do you? It's basically an organised, non-believers society which campaigns for such things as the abolition of faith schools, and which I agree with on many fronts. I'm practically a Humanist, really.

Yup, I'm well aware of Humanism and Humanist movements. I don't mind private/faith based schools, but I do have a problem when they ask for state or federal funding. At that point, you should lose your status of "Private," and be made to accept any student in your district while losing all religious teaching abilities.

I agree with this but as long as the schools are forced to form some sort of moral building exercise/ program.

 

[mokes310]

Hard for me to discuss since I agree with you. I'm not from the UK, but I still believe that religion in all it's shapes and forms should be left out of public education facilities, no matter where you are.

I completely agree with you. You don't know of Humanism do you? It's basically an organised, non-believers society which campaigns for such things as the abolition of faith schools, and which I agree with on many fronts. I'm practically a Humanist, really.

Yup, I'm well aware of Humanism and Humanist movements. I don't mind private/faith based schools, but I do have a problem when they ask for state or federal funding. At that point, you should lose your status of "Private," and be made to accept any student in your district while losing all religious teaching abilities.

I agree with this but as long as the schools are forced to form some sort of moral building exercise/ program.

Who is the judge on what's moral or not?

I agree with you, but would recommend that the class is taught the importance of community service more than anything else.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

*Looks up from book*

The United Kingdom is a Christian nation. I'd advise people remember that.

*Goes back to reading Joe Haldeman*

 

[cuddly_tomato]

*Looks up from book*

The United Kingdom is a Christian nation. I'd advise people remember that.

*Goes back to reading Joe Haldeman*

Maybe, but "Christian" is a highly amorphous term surely. You have your Orthodoxes, your Protestants, your Catholics etc. Even among these groups you have varying levels of faith and different approaches to religious practice among each group. We also have many millions of Muslims here now, as well as a very strong Pagan presence in the South West not to mention all the atheists.

What I am trying to say here is that the UK is not a theocracy. Not even close. And (I suspect you might agree with me here Fondant) kids singing hymns in school has done bugger all over the last 100 years to make Christians out of people.

I understand how it wouldn't be seen as a big deal over there since it's been going on for so long and is an everyday thing, but still, I don't understand it... Seperation of church and state is one thing I feel very strongly about, so to hear that a modern, international country like this is still so blatantly incorporating religion with public education is, well, shocking. And I'm not worried that it's corrupting the religious lives of children or anything, but still, they're just children, and forcing them to sing about a particular religion and praising its ideals, and then being taught to disregard all of that and that it's wrong, must have some potential to mess with them, right?

The most surprising thing here is that I've never heard of this. I'm only 16 but still, considering all the information I know about every place in the world, historical and modern, I don't see how I could have never heard of such a big thing as this. Especially since, as I said, something like that would (thankfully) never be allowed in the US.

No, this doesn't have any potential to mess with kids heads. Kids are protected from such things by very short attention spans and the fact that they don't really give a shit about anything at that age. Find me the kid who talks about god more than Transformers (or whatever the equivalent is these days) and I might reconsider.

Yes, something like this would never be allowed in the US, yet the US is considerably closer to a theocracy than we are. Why is that? Our Prime Minister actually had to leave office before becoming a holy man because "finding god" while being in charge would have caused him to be thrown out. Seriously, what's the big deal?

Incidentally, a lot of people say "seperation of church and state" but have very little understanding of what that phrase means. It certainly doesn't mean that all government institutions should pretend that there is no such thing as religion, to do so would be foolish beyond belief.

 

[Magugag]

Religion should be left out of Schools, seriously there's practicly NO reason for religion in school, it does not help you in any way, it does not teach anything rational that you would need in life...well apart from the fact that you'll get to hell unless you "praise the lord". That's the thing I hate about religion, they try to force kids believe in "God" by threatening them whit Hell, or trying to get religion in School. This is big BS.

First allow me to note that I am for separation of church and state. I don't really like religion being taught in schools. However I also must disagree with this person here in saying that religion does no good. As much as people love hating religion right now and blaming it for a lot of the world's problems, it was crucial in helping to form society and still teaches values today. A guy that sacrificed himself to save you is a selfless and benevolent role model, rules like 'Thou shalt not kill' and 'Thou shalt not steal' have been deeply ingrained into society, and most would say that's very good. Religion serves a very important purpose in many people's lives, and I think a lot of those who dismiss it as foolish or unenlightened are being a little too closed themselves. Some loud people being jerks about religion tend to undermine the thousands for each one who themselves are people you'd probably like.

Again, I am not for religion in schools, nor do I belong to any particular religion. I believe that such values should be taught by the parents if they truly want religious backgrounds for their children. It's only up to the schools to impart knowledge, morals and rules. A public school should feel open to everyone, and shouldn't support any particular religion above others. That's my two cents.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Am I really so predictable that cuddly tomatoe knows I will agree with me? Oh, well. Yes, I agree that the UK is nowhere near a theocracy. Never has been, never will be. My point is that, quite frankly, while religion should never meddle in politics, it should have not precluded Mr Blair from speaking from his beleif in god, nor should doing so have incited scorn amongst the public. Religion is not something to be frightened of or ashamed of.

 

[Sir Ollie]

The UK should should send groups of chavs and football hooligans to Muslim countries and build pubs everywhere to balance it out.

Haha the best thing i have ever heard totally agree with you lol

 

[Solipsis]

Am I really so predictable that cuddly tomatoe knows I will agree with me? Oh, well. Yes, I agree that the UK is nowhere near a theocracy. Never has been, never will be. My point is that, quite frankly, while religion should never meddle in politics, it should have not precluded Mr Blair from speaking from his beleif in god, nor should doing so have incited scorn amongst the public. Religion is not something to be frightened of or ashamed of.

Sense is spoken. Separation of church and state shouldn't mean that people with religious beliefs have no place in politics. It should mean religion doesn't control government (a la the Papal States) and government doesn't control religion (state enforced worship). It is a concept that is stretched to mean very much more than originally intended, I think.

But the phrase "separation of church and state" is one that originated in American politics anyway, and isn't quite appropriate for a country that's had an established state religion for centuries.

 

[ElephantGuts]

*Looks up from book*

The United Kingdom is a Christian nation. I'd advise people remember that.

*Goes back to reading Joe Haldeman*

Maybe, but "Christian" is a highly amorphous term surely. You have your Orthodoxes, your Protestants, your Catholics etc. Even among these groups you have varying levels of faith and different approaches to religious practice among each group. We also have many millions of Muslims here now, as well as a very strong Pagan presence in the South West not to mention all the atheists.

What I am trying to say here is that the UK is not a theocracy. Not even close. And (I suspect you might agree with me here Fondant) kids singing hymns in school has done bugger all over the last 100 years to make Christians out of people.

Cut again

No, this doesn't have any potential to mess with kids heads. Kids are protected from such things by very short attention spans and the fact that they don't really give a shit about anything at that age. Find me the kid who talks about god more than Transformers (or whatever the equivalent is these days) and I might reconsider.

Yes, something like this would never be allowed in the US, yet the US is considerably closer to a theocracy than we are. Why is that? Our Prime Minister actually had to leave office before becoming a holy man because "finding god" while being in charge would have caused him to be thrown out. Seriously, what's the big deal?

Incidentally, a lot of people say "seperation of church and state" but have very little understanding of what that phrase means. It certainly doesn't mean that all government institutions should pretend that there is no such thing as religion, to do so would be foolish beyond belief.

Two points. First, if the school is teaching children something they shouldn't be, I wouldn't say it's okay relying on the children not paying attention or caring about what they're being taught. If they shouldn't be taught something, wouldn't it be better to just not teach it?

And regarding seperation of church and state: I'm certainly not saying schools should pretend religion doesn't exist, as our schools do teach about all religions and their roles in history and modern society, which I am quite satisfied with. But there's a big difference between teaching about religion and shoving it down kids' throats. Instructing them to sing songs praising a certain religion is far across that line.

 

[ElephantGuts]

(Sorry for double post (unless someone posts between mine) but it got too confusing typing a post with all this text and all these quotes, especially since I'm trying to cut some so people's eyes/brains are not injured).

Cut

No, you can't abstain. This is law here. Kids attending school have to pray at least once per week.

Religious education, along with physical education, is the only lesson that state schools here are obliged by law to provide.

Here is the effect:-

More cutting was needed.

If a kid is religious then it might be something they want to do. If not then it is 15 minutes of the day where they don't have to do mathematics.

Seriously, it's been going on here for over a century and has never been an issue. I don't see what all the hubub is about now.

More cutting.

For usin the UK its a quaint tradition that will no doubt die out in the future, similar to our judges wearing wigs. If you get a note from your parents you can opt out. Its no different than you pledging allegance to your flag (dont the Christians call that idolatry, its a sin right?)

Our society as a whole is far less christian fundamentalist than America and its a better place for it.

Even with your "seperation of chjurch and state", which to me seems like lip service rather than fact, you have religous mentalists bombing abortion clinics, your poloticians darent act on their conscience or pass lawss without worrying about, or some times courting the christian right.

All your poloticians have to say god bleess America 8 times a day or they become unelectable. Over here were distrustful of biible bashing poloticians incase it influencees their polotics, hence Tony Blair became catholic after he quit as PM and not before.

You elected a Black president, how many years until you elect an atheist or humanist?

Well first of all, I don't believe it's like pledging allegiance to our flag. Saying the pledge isn't really a school activity or even something you are instructed to do, it's just done. If you don't want to you just don't do anything for the maybe 30 seconds it takes. No notes are needed. Also, and more importantly, saying the pledge isn't religious, it applies strictly to the country and patriotism (which we can safely assume applies to everyone saying it, since they are in the USA after all). We are not worshipping it, we are, as the name implies, pledging our allegiance to it and the country it represents. And yes, I know it has the word God in it but most things do and for the record I also am against that, but it's not a big enough deal to actually protest against.

And I am aware that, as with most things in this country, the seperation of church and state is not followed perfectly and incorruptedly (is that a word), but atleast it is a written down as an important part of our government and people generally attempt to follow it, or atleast are aware they should be. Which is one of the reasons I feel so passionately about it, I want to see that it is still followed as much as possible.

 

[Arachon]

Man, people are so afraid to offend Muslims these days. Muslims behave in such a separatist manner and seem to have no respect for the culture of the country they live in yet people don't have the balls to call them out on it and keeping letting it happen.

Do you honestly have any idea of what you're talking about? Since when did "having a different culture and religion" become synonomous with "disrespecting our culture" (whatever that is?), yes, they have a different culture, but why can't that culture be allowed alongside "ours" (provided of course that it stays within the boundaries of the law), since when did diversity become such a bad thing?

Ohwell... Poor us white majority, oppressed by political correctness -.-

 

[bjj hero]

I believe "under god" wasnt in the original pledge of allegiance, pressure from your ever active christian right got it in there at a later date. God forbid (oops) your politicians would upset that minority interest group. Off the subject, the "justice for all bit" is laughable since Gitmo.

I cant believe ElephantGuts cant see the similarity between religion and pledging towards the flag. Its swearing loyalty to an ideal, to your closed group with all of the ritual of any religion (facing the flag, hat off hand on heart, etc). Similar to the lords prayer its forced into your kids until they can recite it from memory.

Supporting this point Jehovahs witnesses refuse to make the pledge as their beliefs preclude swearing loyalty to any power lesser than God. As you mentioned they are allowed to opt out, just like students can from UK assemblies.

As far as having Seperation of church and state written in a constitution goes, the UK doesnt have a constitution, it is not a prerequisite to a democracy. Were you aware Iraq, under Sadam, had a constitution?

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Personally I think this is absurd: I learnt to sing hymns in Primary school, and yet my beleif in god was in no way formed by them, as I'm unsure as to whether it exists. My advice is this: Get over it.