Team Fortress 2 - Mann Co. Store

[Fanta Grape]

There are many gameplay problems with Team Fortress 2 right now and while many of them are debatable, there's one which hugely annoys me.

Item sets.

Let's look at the scout's "The Special Delivery". If you use the shortstop, the holy mackerel, the mad milk and the milkman together, you get a 25% health boost. Now the problem with this boost is that there are no negative effects. While the Saharan Spy set has a positive aspect and negative aspect to compliment the play style, the Special Delivery have no bad aspects to it. With the other sets with maybe the exception of the Gas Attendant, it seems that the bonuses are made purely to make up for the poor weapon choices and combinations. The tank buster does not work whatsoever and the hibernating bear is a disaster in practice. Bad sets are negligible though, and I don't mind, but the good ones are what truly breaks the game. With no negative downside to using a shortstop, madmilk and holy mackerel (as it's a perfectly legitimate combination), that means that people can buy the set and be at a advantage to another player with the same weapons but no hat.

While I can complain about the game all day, I truly do adore it, but this is the first balancing issue that needs to be fixed in my opinion. What needs to happen is a boost that compliments the style, but has a downside. Maybe the scout can have that extra health, but takes more damage from melee attacks (due to the fact that the player should be making more distance between themselves and the enemy with the extended range of the shortstop). Just an idea.

Any thoughts on item sets or just new weapons in general?

 

[Zac Smith]

Only thing I will say is PC version got all these updates, and PS3 and Xbox got nothing with the orange box. I know Valve specialises in PC games, but come on.

 

[sdafdfhrye3245]

You think the milk is an upgrade to the pistol? That is really funny. The pistol is a perfect weapon for finishing enemies. Then there are things like the soldier bonus which frankly, are awful.

 

[Reynaerdinjo]

The Gas Jockey set has the extra bullet vulnerability, you know.

 

[Sylvine]

You think the milk is an upgrade to the pistol? That is really funny. The pistol is a perfect weapon for finishing enemies.

The milk WAS an upgrade to the pistol before the nerf, and it arguably still is. The pistol is unreliable as hell, and if You can't finish off an enemy (or two) in 6 scattergun shots... the pistol is a useful tool for mediocre scouts going against mediocre enemies, but the alternative - pretty much any alternative, it would seem - is better.

As for the topic, the milkman is indeed a ballancing and design catastrophe. To be perfectly honest, though, so are the Tankbuster and Croc-o-Style. The difference is that their boni are only marginally useful and their lineup is regarded as inferior (rightfully, IMO), whereas the milkman scout gets a huge bonus and has a fully functional loadout.

But in general, there's just no ballancing excuse to getting a flat bonus for wearing a hard-to-get hat. The person who has the same loadout (for whatever reason) but is not wearing a cosmetic item has a clear, and unfair, disadvantage? Madness.

~Sylv

 

[Outright Villainy]

The special delivery set is the only one that's problemtatic (as said, the gas jockey gives you bullet vulnerability, and no axtinguisher), but I agree, it should be fixed. It'd be fair if you were forced to use bonk or something, but with the regen from mad milk as is, the scout becomes ridiculously powerful with the set. Throw the milk on a soldier and you're laughing, you're almost guaranteed to kill him them with 150hp and regen.

 

[Fanta Grape]

The Gas Jockey set has the extra bullet vulnerability, you know.

Oh, yes. My mistake. That's what I thought so I went to double check on the TF2 wiki and misread it as 10% damage resistance. I'll fix it up now. Anything to contribute, though?

You think the milk is an upgrade to the pistol? That is really funny. The pistol is a perfect weapon for finishing enemies. Then there are things like the soldier bonus which frankly, are awful.

I don't think it's an upgrade but it certainly works as somewhat of a side-grade. The pistol's necessity was dependent on running out of ammo for your scattergun, but the reload time for the shortstop nearly makes up for that. The mad milk is definitely a team weapon and is certainly helpful for group rushes. While its inferiority may pop up in competitive play, the fact that this thread is centric around the disadvantages new players have, I think we can ignore it.

 

[therandombear]

Sets are ok...but they should remove the need to wear the set hat for the set bonus, they changed that with the medic, heavy and demoman set, you only need the weapons.

Hats are rare to get in drop and expencive to craft and expencive in the Mann Co store. Sure they made specific recipies to craft the set hats, but it's till expencive, 4 refined metal + 1 polycount weapon of that class.

1 refined metal = 3 Reclaimed metal = 1 reclaimed = 3 Scrap = 1 scrap = 2 weapons from same class.

18 weapons for 1 refined. 18x4 = 72 weapons + 1 from specific poly class. And normal weapon drop rate for 1 week is roughly 9-11 weapons. Meaning it takes a long time to get enough materials for a set hat.

Anyways, as mentioned I'm glad they changed their mind with medic, heavy and demoman sets, no need for hat to fulfill the set bonus. After that it's just to ignore the Mann Co store, anything you can buy in the store can drop...with the exception of black and white paint...which is weird tbh. Though you can get that from crates....and keys, keys do not drop, but atleast they are tradeable.

 

[therandombear]

I don't think it's an upgrade but it certainly works as somewhat of a side-grade. The pistol's necessity was dependent on running out of ammo for your scattergun, but the reload time for the shortstop nearly makes up for that. The mad milk is definitely a team weapon and is certainly helpful for group rushes. While its inferiority may pop up in competitive play, the fact that this thread is centric around the disadvantages new players have, I think we can ignore it.

Using pistol with Shortstop is useless anyhow, they share the same ammo.

And yes, I'll agree that those sets are a disadvantage for new players since you need the hats, and in my post above I give you a rough calculation on how much is needed to only get 1 set hat which is needed for set bonus. But, and there is a but, stock weapons are usually better then the side-grades....except maybe the shovel, equalizer is beast >.>

 

[Sylvine]

But, and there is a but, stock weapons are usually better then the side-grades....except maybe the shovel, equalizer is beast >.>

That's where the scout set gets problematic, too. The shortstop is so close to being a perfect sidegrade that the whole set bonus mess is even more painful. It has pretty much the same DPS as the scattergun does, and a number of soft advantages that are countered by equally soft disadvantages (like faster rate of fire / better aim required). It would be a truly great weapon...if it wasn't for the whole set business.

~Sylv

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Let's look at the scout's "The Special Delivery".

You know how much that set helps against Sentries, Snipers, Stickies or Pyros?

Zip.

You know how tough it is to get good solid hits with the Shortstop at close range?

Very.

You know how long that +25 health helps you when under fire?

.5 seconds.

They're not broken.

 

[therandombear]

But, and there is a but, stock weapons are usually better then the side-grades....except maybe the shovel, equalizer is beast >.>

That's where the scout set gets problematic, too. The shortstop is so close to being a perfect sidegrade that the whole set bonus mess is even more painful. It has pretty much the same DPS as the scattergun does, and a number of soft advantages that are countered by equally soft disadvantages (like faster rate of fire / better aim required). It would be a truly great weapon...if it wasn't for the whole set business.

~Sylv

Ya...most scouts are using Shortstop and killing people all the time. I however can't use the shortstop at all, requires to much precision aiming xD

I'll be honest, I hope the shortstop gets "nerfed".

Scattergun has a base dmg of 60 and a critical of 180. This is if you hit point blank, meat shot.
Shortstop has base dmg of 48 and critical of 144.

In numbers, Scattergun wins, clearly, however the Shortstop has something the Scattergun doesn't, and that's range. Most likely in a duel between 2 scouts, 1 using shortstop and 1 using scattergun, the shortstop scout wins, because he has range and reload speed.

 

[therandombear]

Let's look at the scout's "The Special Delivery".

You know how much that set helps against Sentries, Snipers, Stickies or Pyros?

Zip.

You know how tough it is to get good solid hits with the Shortstop at close range?

Very.

You know how long that +25 health helps you when under fire?

.5 seconds.

They're not broken.

Depends if it's a good scout or not, old man root

Just look at how Cali plays scout, jumping all over the darned place "dodging" your shots, if you as a scout keep jumping and running around enemy those 25+ health work wonders.

Friend of mine does that, he's a beast with shortstop, those 25 health saves his ass several times.

Of course I usually get back at him when I go soldier...I can get pretty precise with a rocket xD

 

[Baneat]

They said it was a problem
They said they'd never do it again
They haven't

Please stop with the pay-to-win stuff, yes, it's a sound argument, it's been heard, and it's been done to death.

Oh, and Scatter+Lugermorph+your choice of melee >> Scout set

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Just look at how Cali plays scout, jumping all over the darned place "dodging" your shots, if you as a scout keep jumping and running around enemy those 25+ health work wonders.

And are you suggesting Cali uses the Milkman? I think he'd be mortally wounded at that.

 

[therandombear]

Just look at how Cali plays scout, jumping all over the darned place "dodging" your shots, if you as a scout keep jumping and running around enemy those 25+ health work wonders.

And are you suggesting Cali uses the Milkman? I think he'd be mortally wounded at that.

hehe, I meant the Shortstop in his case

Got all muddled up there in my post, I see that now xD

 

[Rayken15]

Sets are ok...but they should remove the need to wear the set hat for the set bonus, they changed that with the medic, heavy and demoman set, you only need the weapons.

Hats are rare to get in drop and expencive to craft and expencive in the Mann Co store. Sure they made specific recipies to craft the set hats, but it's till expencive, 4 refined metal + 1 polycount weapon of that class.

1 refined metal = 3 Reclaimed metal = 1 reclaimed = 3 Scrap = 1 scrap = 2 weapons from same class.

18 weapons for 1 refined. 18x4 = 72 weapons + 1 from specific poly class. And normal weapon drop rate for 1 week is roughly 9-11 weapons. Meaning it takes a long time to get enough materials for a set hat.

Anyways, as mentioned I'm glad they changed their mind with medic, heavy and demoman sets, no need for hat to fulfill the set bonus. After that it's just to ignore the Mann Co store, anything you can buy in the store can drop...with the exception of black and white paint...which is weird tbh. Though you can get that from crates....and keys, keys do not drop, but atleast they are tradeable.

Actually, it's 27 for 1 refined and 81 for 1 hat or 82 for a poly one.

 

[Katana314]

I don't think the issue is balancing for any particular weapon or set. I think the issue is that you CAN NOT balance so many weapons all at once, and even if you did (erring on the side of underpowered as Valve tries, and fails, to do) then it's still a massively confusing game with so many different effects in play all at once. Is anyone expected to look, notice a pyro is carrying a certain shotgun, and say "HEY! He has +10% arrow vulnerability! I'll use my Huntsman on him!!" ?

 

[therandombear]

Sets are ok...but they should remove the need to wear the set hat for the set bonus, they changed that with the medic, heavy and demoman set, you only need the weapons.

Hats are rare to get in drop and expencive to craft and expencive in the Mann Co store. Sure they made specific recipies to craft the set hats, but it's till expencive, 4 refined metal + 1 polycount weapon of that class.

1 refined metal = 3 Reclaimed metal = 1 reclaimed = 3 Scrap = 1 scrap = 2 weapons from same class.

18 weapons for 1 refined. 18x4 = 72 weapons + 1 from specific poly class. And normal weapon drop rate for 1 week is roughly 9-11 weapons. Meaning it takes a long time to get enough materials for a set hat.

Anyways, as mentioned I'm glad they changed their mind with medic, heavy and demoman sets, no need for hat to fulfill the set bonus. After that it's just to ignore the Mann Co store, anything you can buy in the store can drop...with the exception of black and white paint...which is weird tbh. Though you can get that from crates....and keys, keys do not drop, but atleast they are tradeable.

Actually, it's 27 for 1 refined and 81 for 1 hat or 82 for a poly one.

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Refined_Metal#Metal

27 for 1 refined was old price when it was 3 weps for 1 scrap.

 

[trebthegamer]

say that to the guys who complain about the updates