Texas v abortion

Terminal Blue

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Your point that with today's science we cannot bring to term a foetus early in pregnancy using exogenesis I'd think correct, but I doubt even most such foetuses are removed intact. And you've likely heard of later abortions where the fetus is larger, it is cut to pieces and removed part by part. We've read of cases where the fetus is alive when leaving the body and the abortionist kills it. Today we have "born alive" laws in some US jurisdictions.
Most of that stuff is pro-metabolist propaganda.

Cutting the foetus to pieces is an emergency procedure used very, very rarely when a late term abortion is immediately necessary (outside of the normal legal window) to save the life of the mother, and where trying to preserve the foetus intact could cause unnecessary risk. There is absolutely no reason to cut a foetus apart to remove it during the normal window of legal pregnancy. It would just be ridiculous, fiddly and unnecessary. The moral calculus of that situation is always going to be difficult and it's obviously one of the more controversial forms of abortion, but at the end of the day the mother is a conscious living being and the foetus, for all its complexity at that point, is not. If you eat meat, you certainly have no grounds to complain. The animals who are killed in a slaughterhouse to make your burgers are far more conscious than that foetus.

The idea of abortionists "killing" foetuses on the operating table is essentially just a myth, and yes, the myth has led to "born alive" laws being adopted by some states. The thing is, there is basically no evidence that "born alive" laws actually achieve anything in the case of abortion. Even at the very latest point that an elective legal abortion is possible, killing a foetus after it is "born" is entirely unnecessary. Even with the most aggressive medical treatment available, which would certainly leave the resulting child horrifically damaged and permanently disabled, the chance of survival would be negligible and unprecedented. Without the provision of that intensive medical treatment, death is inevitable. "Abortion survivors" do not actually exist in any kind of routine or conventional sense. Abortions at that stage are already incredibly rare, and given the extreme harm involved conventional medical ethics would not dictate trying to keep a foetus "born" in that state alive at any costs. Born alive laws represent an attempt to override the normal process of medical ethics, but given the extreme difficulty involved I'd genuinely doubt that any person has actually been "saved" under born alive laws who wouldn't have been "saved" anyway.

Of course, doctors break the rules sometimes, and there can be pressure to violate medical ethics, but that's hardly restricted to abortion and isn't always a bad thing. Certainly in deathcare, doctors will often be put in the position of having to "covertly" euthanize people because frankly, the limits placed on doctors in that regard are ridiculous. Two of my grandparents had to be starved to death, because their minds were gone and yet that was the only legal way to kill them. The cruelty and indignity of that situation has never been lost on me. At that point, it's not loving life, it's just being afraid of death.
 
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XsjadoBlayde

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It's curious how fundamentalist evangelicals have done some serious stretching to claim either covid or the vaccine or vaccine passports are the mark of the beast by reaching the number 666 through tortured numerology techniques...



Yet when it comes to the abortion law rollout, there's nary a timid squeak about the number despite requiring literally zero numerology-esque baking whatsoever to get to it...

Screenshot_2021-09-10-18-12-33-11_4641ebc0df1485bf6b47ebd018b5ee76.jpg
 

tstorm823

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So, I really hate the term "pro-life".
It's not any more silly a term than "pro-choice" when considered in a general sense, but if you'd like to think of me as "anti-choice", that's perfectly reasonable within this specific argument. Death is typically not a crime, someone dying only becomes a crime when another person decides to make it happen or decides to do something that made the death inevitable. The choice genuinely is the issue. In all other instances, it is illegal to choose death wherever life is a reasonable possibility. "Anti-choice" is a title I'll gladly carry.
 
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gorfias

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Most of that stuff is pro-metabolist propaganda.

Cutting the foetus to pieces is an emergency procedure used very, very rarely when a late term abortion is immediately necessary (outside of the normal legal window) to save the life of the mother, and where trying to preserve the foetus intact could cause unnecessary risk. There is absolutely no reason to cut a foetus apart to remove it during the normal window of legal pregnancy. It would just be ridiculous, fiddly and unnecessary. The moral calculus of that situation is always going to be difficult and it's obviously one of the more controversial forms of abortion, but at the end of the day the mother is a conscious living being and the foetus, for all its complexity at that point, is not. If you eat meat, you certainly have no grounds to complain. The animals who are killed in a slaughterhouse to make your burgers are far more conscious than that foetus.

The idea of abortionists "killing" foetuses on the operating table is essentially just a myth, and yes, the myth has led to "born alive" laws being adopted by some states. The thing is, there is basically no evidence that "born alive" laws actually achieve anything in the case of abortion. Even at the very latest point that an elective legal abortion is possible, killing a foetus after it is "born" is entirely unnecessary. Even with the most aggressive medical treatment available, which would certainly leave the resulting child horrifically damaged and permanently disabled, the chance of survival would be negligible and unprecedented. Without the provision of that intensive medical treatment, death is inevitable. "Abortion survivors" do not actually exist in any kind of routine or conventional sense. Abortions at that stage are already incredibly rare, and given the extreme harm involved conventional medical ethics would not dictate trying to keep a foetus "born" in that state alive at any costs. Born alive laws represent an attempt to override the normal process of medical ethics, but given the extreme difficulty involved I'd genuinely doubt that any person has actually been "saved" under born alive laws who wouldn't have been "saved" anyway.

Of course, doctors break the rules sometimes, and there can be pressure to violate medical ethics, but that's hardly restricted to abortion and isn't always a bad thing. Certainly in deathcare, doctors will often be put in the position of having to "covertly" euthanize people because frankly, the limits placed on doctors in that regard are ridiculous. Two of my grandparents had to be starved to death, because their minds were gone and yet that was the only legal way to kill them. The cruelty and indignity of that situation has never been lost on me. At that point, it's not loving life, it's just being afraid of death.
I am reviewing to see what percent of US abortions are done 2nd term that typically requires a D&E that I have to think does violence to the fetus, including, " Some providers may use a medication, which you would get as a shot into your abdomen, to stop the fetal heartbeat before the procedure. " https://www.webmd.com/women/abortion-procedures#2-6

EDIT: About 8% take place after 14 weeks: https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/

A concern is that too often, they aren't really, "pro-choice" but pro-abortion. You may recall an ad campaign with the tagline, "Life. What a beautiful choice". Got shade over that. Recently, a progressive woman wrote a column about how having a child at 25 was liberating for her, a life changing positive experience. She got shade. I do not know how prevalent this outlook is about the "pro-choice" movement is or not, but it is there.
 
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Terminal Blue

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It's not any more silly a term than "pro-choice" when considered in a general sense, but if you'd like to think of me as "anti-choice", that's perfectly reasonable within this specific argument.
Honestly, I'm going to stick with the term pro-metabolism.

I think that's a far more accurate description of people who place an obscene level of value on the continuation of biochemical processes at the expense of actual life. I know it's not actually an accurate description. I know there is no consistent ethical stance to any of this that would justify being pro or anti anything, it's just a blind obedience to some source of religious authority which itself has no genuine ethical basis. But in the meantime I enjoy the implied mockery of the anaemic, nihilistic concept of life as nothing but the meaningless gyration of cells.

Not to mention, being lectured about life by people whose view of human existence is a miserable, unworthy prelude meant only to be spent in slavish preparation for the liberation of death strikes me as the ultimate irony. Nietzche wasn't right very often, but this is one of those times. You can't claim to love life but hate actually living it. You can't claim to love life and then demand that life be made as miserable, empty and joyless as humanly possible in order to give death a sense of meaning it has in no way earned.
 
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Gordon_4

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It's curious how fundamentalist evangelicals have done some serious stretching to claim either covid or the vaccine or vaccine passports are the mark of the beast by reaching the number 666 through tortured numerology techniques...

I don't suppose its worth pointing out that you'd need to use a syringe scaled for a fucking Tyrannosaurus to inject something like that unnoticed. For a certain value of that word.
 
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MrCalavera

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It's curious how fundamentalist evangelicals have done some serious stretching to claim either covid or the vaccine or vaccine passports are the mark of the beast by reaching the number 666 through tortured numerology techniques...



Yet when it comes to the abortion law rollout, there's nary a timid squeak about the number despite requiring literally zero numerology-esque baking whatsoever to get to it...

View attachment 4476
This reminds that the phone number for my vaccine appointment had six sixes in it. That's right, double the 666. Surprised i haven't heard of any local whackos alarming about it.

There really are pro abortion types out there (as opposed to choice). I don't know what the stats are yet (how prevalent).
Being "pro-choice" and "pro-abortion" are realistically the same.

Same as being pro knee surgery, plastic surgery, or LASIK.
 
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The Rogue Wolf

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It's curious how fundamentalist evangelicals have done some serious stretching to claim either covid or the vaccine or vaccine passports are the mark of the beast by reaching the number 666 through tortured numerology techniques...
If they're going to try to force us to live by the rules of a fantasy novel, could they at least pick a good one? The Bible's got plot holes out the ass!
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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It's not any more silly a term than "pro-choice" when considered in a general sense, but if you'd like to think of me as "anti-choice", that's perfectly reasonable within this specific argument. Death is typically not a crime, someone dying only becomes a crime when another person decides to make it happen or decides to do something that made the death inevitable. The choice genuinely is the issue. In all other instances, it is illegal to choose death wherever life is a reasonable possibility. "Anti-choice" is a title I'll gladly carry.
So, if anybody who needs a blood transfusion, bone marrow, or a kidney to live, all possible donors who choose not to give are murderers. After all, they're choosing death for somebody else.
 

tstorm823

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So, if anybody who needs a blood transfusion, bone marrow, or a kidney to live, all possible donors who choose not to give are murderers. After all, they're choosing death for somebody else.
That's not the same thing at all. There are definite moral differences between throwing someone into a fire, not running into a fire to pull them out, and not being involved at all because you're 73 miles away at the time, and our legal system treats all of those differently.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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That's not the same thing at all. There are definite moral differences between throwing someone into a fire, not running into a fire to pull them out, and not being involved at all because you're 73 miles away at the time, and our legal system treats all of those differently.
In all other instances, it is illegal to choose death wherever life is a reasonable possibility. "Anti-choice" is a title I'll gladly carry.
So, if somebody identifies you as a possible bone marrow donor, and you choose not to be, it should be illegal if that person dies? Why is pregnancy literally the only instance where it is illegal to choose not to use your body to save somebody else?

Again, going with the absurd fiction that a fetus is a person to begin with

EDIT: Although, I suppose a better analogy would be that you wake up one day and find out that you're strapped into a gurney where you're already wired up to somebody using your body for survival, and having them survive would take almost a year of your life and cause permanent bodily changes, *and* you would be responsible for that person for near two decades, *and* it would cost an outrageous amount of money, *and* might kill you, would that be unethical to disconnect yourself from keeping them alive?

The fact that this hypothetical is taking place inside you abdomen isn't particularly relevant
 
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tstorm823

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So, if somebody identifies you as a possible bone marrow donor, and you choose not to be, it should be illegal if that person dies? Why is pregnancy literally the only instance where it is illegal to choose not to use your body to save somebody else?

Again, going with the absurd fiction that a fetus is a person to begin with

EDIT: Although, I suppose a better analogy would be that you wake up one day and find out that you're strapped into a gurney where you're already wired up to somebody using your body for survival, and having them survive would take almost a year of your life and cause permanent bodily changes, *and* you would be responsible for that person for near two decades, *and* it would cost an outrageous amount of money, *and* might kill you, would that be unethical to disconnect yourself from keeping them alive?

The fact that this hypothetical is taking place inside you abdomen isn't particularly relevant
If you had a case of conjoined twins, where one was self-sufficient but the other would die if they separated, would you support one choosing to cut off the other?

Like, pregnancy is an amazing, unique thing. In order to construct an analogy to it, you necessarily have to imagine a nearly magical scenario to even approximate it. Nothing else in life is like that, making the analogy game kid of futile. Like, I could sit here and yell "why is abortion literally the only instance where you get to choose to kill someone based on your preference" and we'd just yell past each other, but there's so many ways to construct pregnancy as different than every other experience a human can have, we'd just be at it all day.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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If you had a case of conjoined twins, where one was self-sufficient but the other would die if they separated, would you support one choosing to cut off the other?
Yes. If I were in that position, would I do it? Probably not. But I'm sure as shit not going to have the government force it
Like, pregnancy is an amazing, unique thing. In order to construct an analogy to it, you necessarily have to imagine a nearly magical scenario to even approximate it. Nothing else in life is like that, making the analogy game kid of futile. Like, I could sit here and yell "why is abortion literally the only instance where you get to choose to kill someone based on your preference"
Because it requires the involuntary and unconsensual use of someone else's body. And the only reason abortion is the only time we argue about it is generally because the vast majority of us have deemed organ harvesting to be reprehensible.
 

Elvis Starburst

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I walked by a car that had a bunch of pro-life stickers on the back of it in a grocery store parking lot yesterday (Not the most common thing I see in Canada). One of them said "Thank god your mother was pro life!" ... and all I can think of was "Thank god my mother actually wanted me in the first place, and was in a good position to support me and love me like a parent should." Oh how "joyous" life would've been had that been the opposite and she had me anyways.
I've already considered suicide at times in my life as I live it now. If even one my parents hated me, I'd be dead a long time ago. I've only gotten this far because of them and their support. Life's hard enough as is, adding familial abuse to the mix would've broken me completely.
Thus I can't sympathize with people trying to suggest to me that a potential life of misery is the only acceptable way to do things
 

tstorm823

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Yes. If I were in that position, would I do it? Probably not. But I'm sure as shit not going to have the government force it

Because it requires the involuntary and unconsensual use of someone else's body. And the only reason abortion is the only time we argue about it is generally because the vast majority of us have deemed organ harvesting to be reprehensible.
I mean, if you're going to insist on continuing the meaningless analogy fight, "Why is pregnancy literally the only time a person gets to choose to connect themselves to another living body and hold it captive for 9 months. Why isn't it legal to do that all the time?"
 

TheMysteriousGX

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I mean, if you're going to insist on continuing the meaningless analogy fight, "Why is pregnancy literally the only time a person gets to choose to connect themselves to another living body and hold it captive for 9 months. Why isn't it legal to do that all the time?"
Ok
 

Revnak

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I mean, if you're going to insist on continuing the meaningless analogy fight, "Why is pregnancy literally the only time a person gets to choose to connect themselves to another living body and hold it captive for 9 months. Why isn't it legal to do that all the time?"
I’m pretty sure you can do that to minors if they’re your kid, so long as you’re not abusing them in the process.
 

Asita

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If you had a case of conjoined twins, where one was self-sufficient but the other would die if they separated, would you support one choosing to cut off the other?
Fun fact: What you're referring to here actually has a damn close match in the case of a parasitic twin, a variation of the conjoined twin in which one effectively stops developing in utero and as such lacks an independent consciousness. To put it simply, it is functionally vestigial. Consquentially, the parasitic twin is not considered an independent person and tends to be surgically removed from the autonomous twin shortly after birth.
 
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