The Alien Franchise Needs to End

[R0guy]

No, it's cool, I didn't really feel pressured or forced to change my stance. Alien, at least to me, WAS the better movie of the two. I totally get that these are opinions, we good. I also enjoyed Prometheus, is all.

Cool
Although now that's out of the way, I agree with your point about classics (and horror movies) not being immune to stupid, but I disagree with your given examples and I believe you could've done much better.

For example, in Alien... I'd just love to know if the scriptwriters have ever actually chased a cat who really didn't want to go to the vet before (cat Underworld) or tried to handle one while the vacuum cleaner is on (cat Cthulhu). I'm a cat person, I love cats (see my avatar), but to think that Ripley would have purposefully gone out of her way to engage in a day-long ordeal with Mr Jones (and that it didn't end up being a day-long ordeal) while there's a giant screeching penis monster stamping across the hallways, a loud-ass alarm and random hissing steam vents, is beyond ridiculous. Sound in space? Cold fusion bombs freezing volcanoes (ST:Into Darkness)? Fuck that noise, this is the shit that gets me riled up, right here. Nevermind that she didn't lose a finger or an eye in the process of stuffing him in a cage (cat DMV).

/end rant ;D

 

[the December King]

No, it's cool, I didn't really feel pressured or forced to change my stance. Alien, at least to me, WAS the better movie of the two. I totally get that these are opinions, we good. I also enjoyed Prometheus, is all.

Cool
Although now that's out of the way, I agree with your point about classics (and horror movies) not being immune to stupid, but I disagree with your given examples and I believe you could've done much better.

For example, in Alien... I'd just love to know if the scriptwriters have ever actually chased a cat who really didn't want to go to the vet before (cat Underworld) or tried to handle one while the vacuum cleaner is on (cat Cthulhu). I'm a cat person, I love cats (see my avatar), but to think that Ripley would have purposefully gone out of her way to engage in a day-long ordeal with Mr Jones (and that it didn't end up being a day-long ordeal) while there's a giant screeching penis monster stamping across the hallways, a loud-ass alarm and random hissing steam vents, is beyond ridiculous. Sound in space? Cold fusion bombs freezing volcanoes (ST:Into Darkness)? Fuck that noise, this is the shit that gets me riled up, right here. Nevermind that she didn't lose a finger or an eye in the process of stuffing him in a cage (cat DMV).

/end rant ;D

Ha! Absolutely- cripes, the movie didn't really need a xenomorph. The bloodbath Mr.Jones could have laid down on Ripley for trying to get him in that little bin would have been more gore-porn than horror, though.

A ship the size of a small town, and you decide to rescue a cat before either a giant phallic demon finds you, or the ship explodes... but because I AM a cat person, and because it totally flies in the face of the horror convention of killing an animal to prove how totally cereal the situation is, I totally applauded her decision!

 

[Fox12]

I just ignore the movies after 3

though if Alien isolation is as good as it could (or should) be then that would be awesome

You mean after two. The idiocy started with three, all due respect to Fincher, who is a fantastic director.

I'd welcome another Alien film, so long as it was the hypothetical series reboot speculated about by James Cameron and Ridley Scott before the studio decided to go with AvP instead. There's nothing wrong with the IP itself. There are still a number of ways you could build an interesting story around the Xenomorphs.

I'm legitimately curious how the film would turn out with two ego maniacs in charge at the same time. I'm not sure any film could withstand that level of narcissism. It would be fun to see the insanity on screen though.

Still, better to have left the series alone after the first film. It didn't need a sequel.

 

[R0guy]

Ha! Absolutely- cripes, the movie didn't really need a xenomorph. The bloodbath Mr.Jones could have laid down on Ripley for trying to get him in that little bin would have been more gore-porn than horror, though.

Hehe yeah, a 2 hour long version of the infamous "Razor Wire Maze" scene from the movie "Saw" comes to mind (If you don't know what I mean, it's on youtube, I'm not sure I can link it here because it's pretty violent, obviously xD).

A ship the size of a small town, and you decide to rescue a cat before either a giant phallic demon finds you, or the ship explodes... but because I AM a cat person, and because it totally flies in the face of the horror convention of killing an animal to prove how totally cereal the situation is, I totally applauded her decision!

Yup and that also makes a good point about things making sense because we want them too. Which I think everyone here, including me, is guilty of. Oh Alien <3, you and your terrible cat-actor, he was totally phoning in his performance. He could have at least stopped purring or licking his lips from the treats he was given off-screen.

As for me and Prometheus, I think a Brazilian director I like summed it best when he said in a interview:

-"The music is 50% of a movie, the acting is the other 50% of a movie and so are the special effects, the editing, the directing, the script..."
-"But that adds up to 300%..."
-"Not if you mess one of those things up it isn't, then your movie is 50% of what it could have been!"

And that 50% thing for me was Prometheus' script. I tried to like it really hard, I mean, everything else is stellar in it (particularly the atmosphere and the actors) but I just can't, and I know that sounds unfair. It's a 5 out of 10 movie for me and there's nothing I can do about it.

 

[DirgeNovak]

I just ignore the movies after 3

though if Alien isolation is as good as it could (or should) be then that would be awesome

You mean after two. The idiocy started with three, all due respect to Fincher, who is a fantastic director.

I'd welcome another Alien film, so long as it was the hypothetical series reboot speculated about by James Cameron and Ridley Scott before the studio decided to go with AvP instead. There's nothing wrong with the IP itself. There are still a number of ways you could build an interesting story around the Xenomorphs.

I don't understand the hate for Alien 3. I thought it was fantastic. It had interesting characters, good horror, good action, a great arc for Ripley and it was beautifully shot. I watched the first three movies for the first time, back to back, a couple months ago and I was thoroughly satisfied.

 

[Laughing Man]

I've seen it. But the "stain on his lungs"....I mean, he's the worst flippin' science officer in the world if he can't figure out something is alive in there, and if it's true that Ash does know about it and is hiding it from the rest of the crew, then it goes back to the medical data within Mother, which Dallas has access to and either didn't read or read a flasified version of the data. Either way, the entire thing in retrospect is problematic.

Some things to point out, firstly yes he is a science officer but the ship is a commercial mining vessel he may be a geologist which means he probably knows jack shit about reading medical data. The term is obviously nothing more than a rank and it's never really established what level of 'science' he is an officer of but like I said commercial mining vessel.

Yes Alien 3 has Ripley do a medical scan and the Alien is quite clear however can I add that

1). The tech she was using was part of the Sulako's equipment which is pointed out as being top notch certainly better than you would expect to find on a commercial mining vessel
2). The tech is also 6 decades more advanced i.e the length of time Ripley was in Hypersleep not taking in to account how old the Nostromo and her tech was to being with.

Second why would Dallas go and review data about some Alien on a planet that for all intensive purposes they really knew nothing about? The fact that the corporation had knowledge and may well have had extensive info in a computer data base doesn't mean that Dallas would have gone looking for the info of his own accord, he's the ships Captain which means that he doesn't do everything himself he assigns the task to the officers beneath him which in this case would have been Ash.

As for the franchise scrub Prometheus and go back give us a better more rounded intro to the Alien franchise. Something gives us more details on how the Alien ship ended up on LV-426. Mind you saying that I am hoping Alien Isolation will be as good as it's claiming to be.

 

[LaoJim]

The problem I've always had with Aliens in games is that in the movies the Xenos are near perfect killing machines, and that's why they are cool. Any game where you are a marine and you are killing hundreds of them feels disappointing to me. I think Dead Space did the right thing by basically copying the Aliens aesthetic but changing the baddies to be more shambling and less deadly.

Actually, we don't have a lot of evidence that the Xenos really are 'perfect' killing machines. The strongest opposition they get in the movies are the marines in Aliens, but they are not good soldiers. That they end up following a civilian is good indication of how worthless they are, especially since her plan is the same one that the dead colonists tried.

I know a lot of characters in the movies seem to think they are unstoppable, but it is never properly explained what they would do against entire armies, citizen militias everywhere, scientists and engineers coming up with more efficient ways to kill them and with the humans having a massive numerical advantage.

That a fair enough point, though what makes the aliens interesting in the films is that they seem to stay one step ahead of the humans, by instinct, evolution or intelligence until practically the end. More specifically in a lot of the games, they have things like you are able to shoot a alien at near point blank range and not suffer from acid burns or you are able to melee the alien away from you for a few seconds (often repeatedly). Basically in order to make the games playable the xenomorphs end up feeling a lot less dangerous than they do in Aliens, principally to make the games playable at less than Dark Souls difficulty.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

The problem I've always had with Aliens in games is that in the movies the Xenos are near perfect killing machines, and that's why they are cool. Any game where you are a marine and you are killing hundreds of them feels disappointing to me. I think Dead Space did the right thing by basically copying the Aliens aesthetic but changing the baddies to be more shambling and less deadly.

Actually, we don't have a lot of evidence that the Xenos really are 'perfect' killing machines. The strongest opposition they get in the movies are the marines in Aliens, but they are not good soldiers. That they end up following a civilian is good indication of how worthless they are, especially since her plan is the same one that the dead colonists tried.

I know a lot of characters in the movies seem to think they are unstoppable, but it is never properly explained what they would do against entire armies, citizen militias everywhere, scientists and engineers coming up with more efficient ways to kill them and with the humans having a massive numerical advantage.

That a fair enough point, though what makes the aliens interesting in the films is that they seem to stay one step ahead of the humans, by instinct, evolution or intelligence until practically the end. More specifically in a lot of the games, they have things like you are able to shoot a alien at near point blank range and not suffer from acid burns or you are able to melee the alien away from you for a few seconds (often repeatedly). Basically in order to make the games playable the xenomorphs end up feeling a lot less dangerous than they do in Aliens, principally to make the games playable at less than Dark Souls difficulty.

Imagine an Aliens game where every time you shoot a xenomorph there's a random number generator that determines the chance that a single drop of acid blood splatters onto your character's face and melts through to his brain.

 

[thiosk]

But I was so looking forward to the Aliens musical. :/

aliens on ice can't be cancelled!

 

[Thaluikhain]

I've consistently said that AVP Requiem is without a doubt the absolute worst major studio picture I've seen in the last 15 years, and maybe ever. It's irredeemable in every sense of the word. It's the science fiction/action version of "The Day The Clown Cried" (okay I've never seen it, but still...). I'd watch Highlander 2 and Battlefield Earth back to back with a Catwoman chaser before I even thought about letting that movie near my blu-ray player.

Catwoman wasn't that bad. You seen Green Lantern, though? Bleh...

Actually, we don't have a lot of evidence that the Xenos really are 'perfect' killing machines. The strongest opposition they get in the movies are the marines in Aliens, but they are not good soldiers. That they end up following a civilian is good indication of how worthless they are, especially since her plan is the same one that the dead colonists tried.

I know a lot of characters in the movies seem to think they are unstoppable, but it is never properly explained what they would do against entire armies, citizen militias everywhere, scientists and engineers coming up with more efficient ways to kill them and with the humans having a massive numerical advantage.

This. The only reason they were scary in Aliens was that there were zillions of them.

Once the Marines start actually fighting back, the aliens get slaughtered. They mostly seemed to be hoping that the marines ran out of bullets before the aliens ran out of aliens.

If the marines weren't rubbish and few in number, things would have been different. If the aliens hadn't chosen the heat exchangers to hide in, things would have been different. If the first marine they attacked didn't spray others with their flamethrower when they got killed, including the one holding all their ammo, things would have been different. If the dropship hadn't been sitting round with the ramp down and unguarded, things would have been different. If the dropship crashed somewhere not on the APC with all the equipment, things would have been different.

For that matter, once the first guy had been face huggered, did the alien that came out drive back to the derelict spaceship and collect a zillion more eggs and give the queen a ride in or something?

 

[Grumman]

I don't understand the hate for Alien 3. I thought it was fantastic. It had interesting characters, good horror, good action, a great arc for Ripley and it was beautifully shot. I watched the first three movies for the first time, back to back, a couple months ago and I was thoroughly satisfied.

Alien 3 was almost a great movie, but it was terrible for the series. Alien works well as its own story, and Aliens is a good follow-up that gives Ripley closure about what happened on the planet. Then Alien3 ruins all that in the first few minutes. I don't mind having more stories in the Aliens universe, but Ripley's story should have ended with her riding off into the sunset with Hicks and Newt at the end of Aliens.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I don't understand the hate for Alien 3. I thought it was fantastic. It had interesting characters, good horror, good action, a great arc for Ripley and it was beautifully shot. I watched the first three movies for the first time, back to back, a couple months ago and I was thoroughly satisfied.

Alien 3 was almost a great movie, but it was terrible for the series. Alien works well as its own story, and Aliens is a good follow-up that gives Ripley closure about what happened on the planet. Then Alien3 ruins all that in the first few minutes. I don't mind having more stories in the Aliens universe, but Ripley's story should have ended with her riding off into the sunset with Hicks and Newt at the end of Aliens.

Adding to this, it's very hard to sympathize with the characters in Alien 3. With the exception of Ripley they're all criminals, mostly murderers and rapists, just the worst people. In that scenario I'm almost rooting for the xenomorph, which takes a shitload of tension out of the movie. It's difficult to make an engaging horror movie when you feel like most of the characters are getting fucked by karma.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I should probably state that I liked Alien better than Prometheus up front, before I continue. It's just a better story. Nonetheless...

1)in Alien, the fact that they were wandering around like that in the first place was careless anyways, especially seeing as how they struggled to move about in those suits. Not a good getup for spelunking, at any rate. Besides, he did in fact walk over to the pulsing egg thing after he fell, and, well, actually shoved his face into a creepy WTF thing, right? And 2), while the quarantine / emotional debacle was way better than a robot infecting someone with a WMD, it still doesn't change the fact that a rather obvious and critical mistake was made. However 3), in Alien, yes, they never removed their helmets in a silly place... I guess there is no real parallel with Alien to Prometheus on this count, because the bulk of Alien takes place in the Nostromo, not the Engineer craft. So... point conceded.

I just think that people are wearing blinders if they think that stupid mistakes don't happen in the 'classics'- stupid decisions are a staple of horror. Was this one harder to believe than most? Maybe. But I still enjoyed it.

I think the arguement there can be made that the crew of the Nostromo are simple truckers and the crew of the Prometheus are trained scientists. Alien was also a way more focused experience while Prometheus just kind of flops around on the floor at an attempt to find its feet. Because of this the mistakes it makes stand out even more prominent.

Now I kind of like Prometheus, but when you think about it it's a really superfluous movie. Everything it tries to do has been done better by Alien, right down to the android subplot.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

It's still got a place in my heart. I guess I'm just a sucker for chest busters.

The bad elements of the Alien Franchise need to end but I think there is potential for more stories in its universe.

*shrug*

The market can probably stand one more Alien film but Hollywood is going to demand a hit. They might even thrust James Cameron back into it with money. Who knows.

 

[EiMitch]

Short of something like that, where there is little if any human involvement, I agree with your idea. Alien: Isolation? Already been done. A good version of Colonial Marines? Already been done. An action film involving the xenomorphs pitted against humans? Done three times now. I can't think of much that the franchise can do without stripping out humans.

Um, about Isolation: did you mean its been done in the Alien franchise in general, or in an Alien game? If you meant the former, the devs weren't exactly hiding that. They stated that they were trying to make the game feel like the first film. But if you meant the later, could you please specify which game Isolation is aping? I know of no other horror-oriented game in the franchise. I would love to be pointed towards one I've missed.

The problem I've always had with Aliens in games is that in the movies the Xenos are near perfect killing machines, and that's why they are cool. Any game where you are a marine and you are killing hundreds of them feels disappointing to me.

Well, that just happens to be why I'm hoping Alien: Isolation isn't a pile of crap sold on lies like Colonial Marines. It has a single xenomorph which you cannot kill. Instead, you have to outwit and evade it. And that won't be easy if the Alien's AI is half as good as the hype claims.

As for the main point of this topic, Alien: Isolation proves (or at least what it promises to be) that there is still something the Alien franchise is still good for. At least one bit of untapped potential. Because a horror movie doesn't provide the same experience as a horror game.

Now please xeno-deity, I pray let Isolation not suck. I offer my copy of Alien 3 for SNES as a sacrifice. (and good riddance)

 

[the December King]

I should probably state that I liked Alien better than Prometheus up front, before I continue. It's just a better story. Nonetheless...

1)in Alien, the fact that they were wandering around like that in the first place was careless anyways, especially seeing as how they struggled to move about in those suits. Not a good getup for spelunking, at any rate. Besides, he did in fact walk over to the pulsing egg thing after he fell, and, well, actually shoved his face into a creepy WTF thing, right? And 2), while the quarantine / emotional debacle was way better than a robot infecting someone with a WMD, it still doesn't change the fact that a rather obvious and critical mistake was made. However 3), in Alien, yes, they never removed their helmets in a silly place... I guess there is no real parallel with Alien to Prometheus on this count, because the bulk of Alien takes place in the Nostromo, not the Engineer craft. So... point conceded.

I just think that people are wearing blinders if they think that stupid mistakes don't happen in the 'classics'- stupid decisions are a staple of horror. Was this one harder to believe than most? Maybe. But I still enjoyed it.

I think the arguement there can be made that the crew of the Nostromo are simple truckers and the crew of the Prometheus are trained scientists. Alien was also a way more focused experience while Prometheus just kind of flops around on the floor at an attempt to find its feet. Because of this the mistakes it makes stand out even more prominent.

Now I kind of like Prometheus, but when you think about it it's a really superfluous movie. Everything it tries to do has been done better by Alien, right down to the android subplot.

I guess they could be seen as truckers, sure. Exceptionally well trained, mind you- they still were astronauts, and had a science advisor on board, etc. But yeah, it is a good point.

Again, I'm not saying Prometheus is the better movie- as we have seen, since sequels (even if not necessarily a sequel, per se) often fall into repetition, it is at best, imitative.

 

[lechat]

Alien, Aliens, and to a lesser extent, Alien 3, pretty much covered everything you could feasibly do with the Xenomorph without falling into repetition. Anything else is just going to retread old ground, and has been for years now. Take a look at any Aliens FPS, even the good AVP games. The marine sections literally just play out like a Best Of montage from the films.

Aliens 3 was reportedly going to be a movie with the xenomorphs escaping and breeding on earth creating an apocalypse scenario. I imagine it as sort of a disaster movie (the first aliens films was horror, the second was action, changing genres seems to work). If they do this then I'd be interested in it. As you say, the basic one/some/many Aliens on a spaceship/station is pretty much played out.

only guy in here who got it.

The movie is called Aliens: Apocalypse
world war Z has pretty much already beaten them to it but imagine the world is completely over run with xenomorphs, in a last ditch effort to save humanity the Americans (go team America?!!??) nuke the shit out of them except.... xenomorphs.
Aliens still survive so a rag tag team of soldiers and the cute kid they find along the way, the only one who knows the location of the nest (cliche heart string pull), travel to the depths of the xeno queen lair located in..... ummm.... central railway station? madison square garden? central park? to finally put a stop to the alien out break for good.
Also the predators show up at the end as well or something.

I'm sure most of you here don't appreciate a good sceenplay when you see one but that right there is an Emmy award winner.


capture cliff hanger. damn straight cliff hanger capture.

 

[babinro]

No franchise ever needs to end.

If you're personally tired of new content related to a franchise you love then simply STOP exposing yourself to it. With all the terrible Star Wars stuff that has come out since the original trilogy I can still find hidden gems that are great. I really enjoyed certain aspects of Ep 1-3. The Clone Wars cartoon has some really great episodes. KOTOR was a fantastic game and created a great world in the franchise. I'm sure Episode 7 on will have at least a few positive elements to them as well.

The point is...even if you absolutely loathed everything Star Wars from Episode 6 and on...that shouldn't impact your love for the original 2 movies. Simply accept that you are personally done with the franchise and move on. No harm done.

 

[the December King]

This. The only reason they were scary in Aliens was that there were zillions of them.

Once the Marines start actually fighting back, the aliens get slaughtered. They mostly seemed to be hoping that the marines ran out of bullets before the aliens ran out of aliens.

If the marines weren't rubbish and few in number, things would have been different. If the aliens hadn't chosen the heat exchangers to hide in, things would have been different. If the first marine they attacked didn't spray others with their flamethrower when they got killed, including the one holding all their ammo, things would have been different. If the dropship hadn't been sitting round with the ramp down and unguarded, things would have been different. If the dropship crashed somewhere not on the APC with all the equipment, things would have been different.

For that matter, once the first guy had been face huggered, did the alien that came out drive back to the derelict spaceship and collect a zillion more eggs and give the queen a ride in or something?

Yeah, I agree- that's why I felt like Alien was a horror film, but Aliens was more an action film. When you add in the definite possibility of matching aggression with aggression, or being able to confront your attackers like this, it always shifts the genre for me. The terror of the aliens feels supplanted in part by the fact that they become the 'enemy' more than the 'monster'. I mean, its still horror, but the Alien was better as a shadowy stalker, and in Aliens became more of an opposing army of Starship-Trooper style "millit-ants".

Acid-Based Terrorists.

Mantis Extremists.

I'm done.

EDIT: Oh! Damnit, I had something with Gamergate, but lost it. Nevermind.

 

[Thaluikhain]

only guy in here who got it.

The movie is called Aliens: Apocalypse
world war Z has pretty much already beaten them to it but imagine the world is completely over run with xenomorphs, in a last ditch effort to save humanity the Americans (go team America?!!??) nuke the shit out of them except.... xenomorphs.
Aliens still survive so a rag tag team of soldiers and the cute kid they find along the way, the only one who knows the location of the nest (cliche heart string pull), travel to the depths of the xeno queen lair located in..... ummm.... central railway station? madison square garden? central park? to finally put a stop to the alien out break for good.
Also the predators show up at the end as well or something.

I'm sure most of you here don't appreciate a good sceenplay when you see one but that right there is an Emmy award winner.


capture cliff hanger. damn straight cliff hanger capture.

Oh, and the heroes are all teenagers with attitude, played by people in their 30s, who speak in nothing but painfully unfunny quips?