The American Constitution

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matrix3509

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Sep 24, 2008
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Necrophagist said:
matrix3509 said:
Necrophagist said:
Why do people think that amendments CHANGE the Constitution, as in negate it? A constitutional amendment becomes a part of the original document. It's not as if the government can go into the original text and erase certain parts. They can't just say, "we vote to erase the presidential term limit" and it is so. An amendment cannot cause a negation in the Constitution, else the Supreme Court will find the amendment to be unconstitutional and strike it down.

Now, Rule of Law and laws are different - the Constitution established a Rule of Law (in the Roman sense) in the United States, but it did not define every law. It grants powers to tax to Congress, but does not define the tax code. It gives the House the ability to create funding laws, but does not define those funding laws. Get it? It is a document which separates and defines powers, but it does not prescribe which laws should be passed.

Some of you are right that certain actions have undermined the Constitution, one of which being the increasing powers of the Presidency. I am currently studying under Dr. David Adler, and if you want to study the process of the Presidency stealing power, read his books. The man is a genius. He has the President on speed-dial. I shit you not.

But, my point: Some laws have undermined what the Constitution said. Some amendments have been made (less than 30, which in the 230 some odd years our country has been around, ain't bad). This does not mean the Constitution is any less important to our national Identity or how our country conducts its business. It is still an essentially unchanged, eternal document. It is one of the reasons our nation has avoided the cycle of shifting power that every other nation experiences on about a 170-year repeating cycle (see: France)
Minor nitpick. The supreme court literally can't rule an amendment unconstitutional. The checks and balances system enables this to let congress pass something that might be ruled unconstitutional otherwise. Its why Bush went for an abortion amendment rather than going for a regular law, because the Supreme Court can't do a thing to amendment.

[/minor nitpick]
In theory, they could. The Supreme Court has original jurisdiction in cases that apply to the Federal Government, under which amendments would fall. I don't think there is precedent for such interference, but argued correctly, it would work. Although, one has to wonder, who would do the arguing? If the SC tried to intervene in an amendment (an amendment being a law of sort) who could challenge their right to do so, since the argument would have to be heard by the Supreme Court.

I just divided by Zero.
Yeah, its good that the SC has no actual power to enforce its rulings then. If you think about it, the SC is nothing more than a glorified oversite committee. They "we don't like this" and congress says, "OK we'll pass an amendment then", and SC then says, "damn".
 

letsnoobtehpwns

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Dec 28, 2008
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the only people i hear say anything is unconstitutional are the major hippies that live by me and say that prop 8 is unconstitutional (i live in california), george bush sending troops to iraq is unconstitutional, banning abortion is unconstitutional (does anyone else think it's ironic that people against war also are pro-abortion?) and pretty much anything too complicated for brains fried from too much weed and acid can comprehend.
 

Snow Fire

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Jan 19, 2009
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high sandwich maker of lamuella said:
Many of the rules in the Constitution are good, but the right to bear arms is not.
That amendment was made to give Americans the ability to abolish the US Government if it turned into a Tyranny. We have the right to abolish the Government and establish a new one to better preserve our liberties.
 

TxMxRonin

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Jan 1, 2009
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Ken Korda said:
If it will be advantageous to the country, why can you not just change the constitution?
The constitution has laws within its self on how it can be changed and if there's any discrepancy with that change then the constitution is not changed. Anything that goes against the Bill of Rights can't be placed in the constitution, but that doesn't mean it can't become a law, it just can't be placed in the constitution.
 

santaandy

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Sep 26, 2008
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I'm gonna give a little history lesson here to set up my thoughts, but I do understand this is common knowledge so please don't think I'm being condescending by telling you something you may already know.

America was founded on the will of the people (that's where the phrase "of the people, by the people, for the people" comes from). The people sent their representatives to embody their will into a legal document to govern them, and the first such attempt was the Articles of Confederation. But the AoC sucked because it treated the United States as literally that - united, yet independent states (as in countries), which retained their powers over the uniting government. Predictably, this ended in disaster, the most noted of which was the creation of a seperate and distinct currency for each state, but also in large part due to the fact that larger states had to pitch in more than their fair share of the work (based on population) because they only got one vote (each state was allowed only one). This led to the creation of two houses of Congress under the Constitution, one with vote weight based on population and one based on equality of vote.

The second attempt, the Constitution, went much better because it created the "America" part of the United States - one country which we all live in, one law which we all live under (and thank god one currency which we all use). The reason we stick to it so devoutly is because to not do so would invite things and people which would not only destroy our unity but defy the will of the people and go against everything we stand for, everything we are, everything the Revolutionary soldiers (and all those that came after too) died for, and the very reason America was created in the first place.

The Constitution was designed to set up the government of the Union and the individual States, whilst the amendments (and Bill of Rights) were designed to allow for specific rulings and guidance on specific issues as they arose. The Bill of Rights is not specifically the most important of all rights, just the ones the Founding Fathers decided were important enough to spell out at the time. I would argue that the right to bear arms and the limit of two presidential terms serve the same purpose (to prevent tyrrany) and are therefore equally important, despite being ratified about a century and a half apart.

The reason the Bill of Rights is (or at least should be, and is by me) seen as the most important is because those rights apply the most directly to preventing tyrrany. I'm just sad that 11, 13-15, 19, 22-26 took as long as they did to be included, let alone had to be spelled out seperately at all (to be fair, some of those circumstances could not have been easily foreseen, and in the case of age and term limits some argument as to the *exact* limits was needed). I'm also saddened that we wasted two on alcohol, yet have done nothing about drugs.

The concept of Unconstitutionality takes into effect the entire Constitution, amendments and all. The Constitution is a living document and therefore *can* and *should* be changed when it is for the betterment of or at the will of the people. From what I understand, the purpose for amendments was to add to the Constituion guidance and rules for specific situations as they were encountered, not to take away from or negate any of what was already written. The power of negation was a good thing when it came to Prohibition, but I would not want to live in an America where any of the other amendments or parts of the Constitution were repealed. All it would take is electing the right idiots and they would vote us out of every right we have. That, and not nationalism or tradition is why the Constitution is so important and is seen as the unquestionable law of our land. Those are the pros and cons of sticking to the Constitution, though I don't think age matters on rights as important as suffrage. Suffrage is good regardless of age.

Another thing I feel worth mentioning is that most debates on Constitutionality (or the lack thereof) have revolved around the Bill of Rights. I can't rightly explain whether or not there is or should be a specific reason for that, but there you go. Perplexingly, I understand that Constitutionality is an argument to determine the spirit but not the letter of the law, as the amendments themselves *make* the letter of the law. Constitutionality is an argument to keep our laws in a concurrent spirit, and to determine that our laws do not harmor unfairly restrict the will of the people, not an argument of violation of actual established principle.

As for infallibility, I feel that there should be a process to determine the permanency of some laws. I doubt anyone would argue against the permanency of the abolition of slavery, or the right of universal suffrage. We need such laws to be protected from future attempts of tyrrany. But I would not want to see automatic permanency for all laws (I do so love my Samuel Adams beers!).

Despite a system of checks and balances designed to keep that very scary situation from happening, all it takes is the aligning of all three branches in conspiracy and the law will be rendered moot. I feel that this makes amendment 2 (and the US currently having 9 guns for every 10 people) our "fourth check and balance," which is why so many people make such a fuss over it. :) In all seriousness, the threat of foreign invasion is just as important and likely a reason to form a militia as the rise of tyrrany at home. I would, however, like to think that the will of the people is stronger than the corruption of elected officials, and those who implement the law will not let those who write the law get away with shennaniganery. In other words, open and nationally united defiance is better than guns.

I like what Cheeze_Pavillion said about sovereignty in post 31. So instead of repeating it here, I advise you to read it if you have not.

And last but not least, for the fella that thought Congress couldn't just abolish Presidential term limits, well, read the damn news. Jose Serrano (a Democrat, don't get me started) wants to do just that so Obama can be President for life. And he isn't the first to suggest such a measure, but with Obama being President it's the first time such a measure is being taken seriously. The Constitution is called a living document because traitors like Serrano can easily kill it. And then those who dissent, like us.

While there are arguements on the specifics of fallibility and enumeration, I think we can all pretty much agree that dicking around with the Constitution dicks around with our rights and subsequently how we are or are not allowed to live. It should only be done in the most serious and grave of situations.