The Apparent Anti-Intellectualism of Gamer Culture

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Dalsyne

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Gaming isn't anti-intellectual, it's anti-political.

When games like Planescape: Torment, Legacy of Kain, any BioWare game, Bioshock and various other story-driven philosophical games run deep narratives that leave you thinking, gamers never say "this is too thinky for me".

When progressive publications critique the moral and political correctness of a game based on their own ideologies, gamers shoot back.

It's not hard to realize this if you stop looking at it with preconceived notions.

(At this point in time after 9 pages I don't even know whether people care about the OP but I had to share my 2 cents regardless)
 

Einspanner

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Dalsyne said:
Gaming isn't anti-intellectual, it's anti-political.

When games like Planescape: Torment, Legacy of Kain, any BioWare game, Bioshock and various other story-driven philosophical games run deep narratives that leave you thinking, gamers never say "this is too thinky for me".
Yeah, because they're about as "thinky" as an R.L. Stein book. I remember people babbling about Bioshock: Infinite's "amazing" story... and then it was just the most ratfucked version of quantum mechanics Depak Chopra might shit in his sleep.

Dalsyne said:
When progressive publications critique the moral and political correctness of a game based on their own ideologies, gamers shoot back.

It's not hard to realize this if you stop looking at it with preconceived notions.

(At this point in time after 9 pages I don't even know whether people care about the OP but I had to share my 2 cents regardless)
Yeah, that's why GG is composed of virtually all gamers. :3
 

Dalsyne

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Einspanner said:
Yeah, because they're about as "thinky" as an R.L. Stein book. I remember people babbling about Bioshock: Infinite's "amazing" story... and then it was just the most ratfucked version of quantum mechanics Depak Chopra might shit in his sleep.
You got me. The intellectualism in Bioshock has nothing on the universe-shattering depth of The Division.

Yeah, that's why GG is composed of virtually all gamers. :3
You got me again. Truly GG must, as a whole, hate those games, and it's just gamers who are *not* GG who really like them.

EDIT: wait a second we weren't even talking about GG.
 

Einspanner

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Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Yeah, because they're about as "thinky" as an R.L. Stein book. I remember people babbling about Bioshock: Infinite's "amazing" story... and then it was just the most ratfucked version of quantum mechanics Depak Chopra might shit in his sleep.
You got me. The intellectualism in Bioshock has nothing on the universe-shattering depth of The Division.
Ooh, I can play that game!...uh, and uh, The Division has nothing on the uber-depth of Candy Crush! hurr hurr

Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Yeah, that's why GG is composed of virtually all gamers. :3
You got me again. Truly GG must, as a whole, hate those games, and it's just gamers who are *not* GG who really like them.
Not what I said, I just pointed out that when you say "Gamers" you just mean "GG". The rest of us billion or so gamers don't like to be pigeonholed with you, understandably enough.
 

Dalsyne

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Einspanner said:
Ooh, I can play that game!...uh, and uh, The Division has nothing on the uber-depth of Candy Crush! hurr hurr
Did you read the first post?


Not what I said, I just pointed out that when you say "Gamers" you just mean "GG". The rest of us billion or so gamers don't like to be pigeonholed with you, understandably enough.
I didn't know there were anti-GG people who still wanted to use the "gamer" term. So do you want to be seen as anti-intellectual then?
 

Einspanner

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Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Ooh, I can play that game!...uh, and uh, The Division has nothing on the uber-depth of Candy Crush! hurr hurr
Did you read the first post?
NINE pages ago, yes. The conversation has expanded a bit since page one. Have you read the rest of those pages?


Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Not what I said, I just pointed out that when you say "Gamers" you just mean "GG". The rest of us billion or so gamers don't like to be pigeonholed with you, understandably enough.
I didn't know there were anti-GG people who still wanted to use the "gamer" term. So do you want to be seen as anti-intellectual then?
Did I just get called "Anti-GG"?
 

Einspanner

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Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Is offended that thing where you start chuckling and shaking your head?
This was about the caliber of intelligent discussion I expected from GamerGhazi. I'll leave you to your chuckling then.
I'm not sure what it is that you expected my reaction to be, although I guess "offended" was your first guess? It's probably worth reminding you that we weren't actually discussing whether or not you thought I was "Anti-GG".


This is where we left it before you decided to start snipping heavily, and derail with insults:

Einspanner said:
Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Yeah, because they're about as "thinky" as an R.L. Stein book. I remember people babbling about Bioshock: Infinite's "amazing" story... and then it was just the most ratfucked version of quantum mechanics Depak Chopra might shit in his sleep.
You got me. The intellectualism in Bioshock has nothing on the universe-shattering depth of The Division.
Ooh, I can play that game!...uh, and uh, The Division has nothing on the uber-depth of Candy Crush! hurr hurr

Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Yeah, that's why GG is composed of virtually all gamers. :3
You got me again. Truly GG must, as a whole, hate those games, and it's just gamers who are *not* GG who really like them.
Not what I said, I just pointed out that when you say "Gamers" you just mean "GG". The rest of us billion or so gamers don't like to be pigeonholed with you, understandably enough.
 

Bombiz

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Einspanner said:
Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Is offended that thing where you start chuckling and shaking your head?
This was about the caliber of intelligent discussion I expected from GamerGhazi. I'll leave you to your chuckling then.
I'm not sure what it is that you expected my reaction to be, although I guess "offended" was your first guess? It's probably worth reminding you that we weren't actually discussing whether or not you thought I was "Anti-GG".


This is where we left it before you decided to start snipping heavily, and derail with insults:

Einspanner said:
Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Yeah, because they're about as "thinky" as an R.L. Stein book. I remember people babbling about Bioshock: Infinite's "amazing" story... and then it was just the most ratfucked version of quantum mechanics Depak Chopra might shit in his sleep.
You got me. The intellectualism in Bioshock has nothing on the universe-shattering depth of The Division.
Ooh, I can play that game!...uh, and uh, The Division has nothing on the uber-depth of Candy Crush! hurr hurr

Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Yeah, that's why GG is composed of virtually all gamers. :3
You got me again. Truly GG must, as a whole, hate those games, and it's just gamers who are *not* GG who really like them.
Not what I said, I just pointed out that when you say "Gamers" you just mean "GG". The rest of us billion or so gamers don't like to be pigeonholed with you, understandably enough.
Why would he just mean GG when he says Gamers?
 

Einspanner

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Bombiz said:
Einspanner said:
Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Is offended that thing where you start chuckling and shaking your head?
This was about the caliber of intelligent discussion I expected from GamerGhazi. I'll leave you to your chuckling then.
I'm not sure what it is that you expected my reaction to be, although I guess "offended" was your first guess? It's probably worth reminding you that we weren't actually discussing whether or not you thought I was "Anti-GG".


This is where we left it before you decided to start snipping heavily, and derail with insults:

Einspanner said:
Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Yeah, because they're about as "thinky" as an R.L. Stein book. I remember people babbling about Bioshock: Infinite's "amazing" story... and then it was just the most ratfucked version of quantum mechanics Depak Chopra might shit in his sleep.
You got me. The intellectualism in Bioshock has nothing on the universe-shattering depth of The Division.
Ooh, I can play that game!...uh, and uh, The Division has nothing on the uber-depth of Candy Crush! hurr hurr

Dalsyne said:
Einspanner said:
Yeah, that's why GG is composed of virtually all gamers. :3
You got me again. Truly GG must, as a whole, hate those games, and it's just gamers who are *not* GG who really like them.
Not what I said, I just pointed out that when you say "Gamers" you just mean "GG". The rest of us billion or so gamers don't like to be pigeonholed with you, understandably enough.
Why would he just mean GG when he says Gamers?
Because "Gamers" didn't react that way to the "progressive articles" in question. Remember this was the conversation:

Einspanner said:
Dalsyne said:
When progressive publications critique the moral and political correctness of a game based on their own ideologies, gamers shoot back.

It's not hard to realize this if you stop looking at it with preconceived notions.

(At this point in time after 9 pages I don't even know whether people care about the OP but I had to share my 2 cents regardless)
Yeah, that's why GG is composed of virtually all gamers. :3
That's just describing GG's hagiography, not what happened with "Gamers".
 

StatusNil

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Kingjackl said:
I think it's sad that we've gone from "games are art" to "games are a product, fuck off with your fancy thinkin' talk". You'd think at least the Escapist community would accept that.
Well, speaking only for myself, my anti-intellectual insistence on games as a product rather than works of art is based on the analyses of the "culture industry" by the "Frankfurt School" Critical Theorists, especially Theodor Adorno. Briefly put, the authorship of anything beyond the simplest "indie" game is inescapably compromised by the need for mass appeal to fund the working of the capitalist mode of production required to create it. This means that the developer is not acting in the privileged role of the "autonomous artist", who would have the necessary freedom from economic constraints to authentically explore artistic problems.
 

MCerberus

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StatusNil said:
Kingjackl said:
I think it's sad that we've gone from "games are art" to "games are a product, fuck off with your fancy thinkin' talk". You'd think at least the Escapist community would accept that.
Well, speaking only for myself, my anti-intellectual insistence on games as a product rather than works of art is based on the analyses of the "culture industry" by the "Frankfurt School" Critical Theorists, especially Theodor Adorno. Briefly put, the authorship of anything beyond the simplest "indie" game is inescapably compromised by the need for mass appeal to fund the working of the capitalist mode of production required to create it. This means that the developer is not acting in the privileged role of the "autonomous artist", who would have the necessary freedom from economic constraints to authentically explore artistic problems.
An analysis that is as short-sighted as it is damaging.
Art has always been commerce. Paintings are commissioned. Buildings built to specifications. Statues made for reasons. Music composed to the taste of the audience. Scripts given notes. Patronage in any scale is adding constraints to a piece, a critical component that actually leads to places not even the artists could have imagined. It also assumes that the artist's voice dies in any collaborate effort.

In other words, they are become hipster, destroyer of taste.
 

CaitSeith

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StatusNil said:
Kingjackl said:
I think it's sad that we've gone from "games are art" to "games are a product, fuck off with your fancy thinkin' talk". You'd think at least the Escapist community would accept that.
Well, speaking only for myself, my anti-intellectual insistence on games as a product rather than works of art is based on the analyses of the "culture industry" by the "Frankfurt School" Critical Theorists, especially Theodor Adorno. Briefly put, the authorship of anything beyond the simplest "indie" game is inescapably compromised by the need for mass appeal to fund the working of the capitalist mode of production required to create it. This means that the developer is not acting in the privileged role of the "autonomous artist", who would have the necessary freedom from economic constraints to authentically explore artistic problems.
Wouldn't the same apply to films? Yet, it doesn't seem uncommon to have high-budget films focused more in art than in mass appeal. Why?
 

CaitSeith

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icythepenguin said:
Anti-intellectualism is not strictly a Gamer thing, it is a current trend across the board because of pop culture. Gamers have generally tended to lean more in favour of intellectualism, arguing for smarter games and better stories over mindless violence and repetition.

The article you linked to is less a review of the game and more a treatise on why the reviewer feels it is corrupting the youth and not being politically correct. He is allowed his opinion but when he demands that we should all make sure that Ubisoft Massive is held accountable for this corruption he goes from review to rant. He lost all validity in my opinion as a reviewer.

The problem I see with his article is that he does not take in account that The Division is a Tom Clancy game meaning that it fits into the same fictional universe as his novels and other games (R6, Splinter Cell, Ghost Recon, EndWar, etc.) This universe is basically the worst case scenario and full of corrupt governments seeking power and territory over the common person. There's been at least two nuclear attacks, one full scale war between NATO and the Soviets, and the Japanese crashing a plane into Congress. Considering all that I'd say The Division fits nicely into Tom Clancy's world.

Frankly if you're going to comment on The Divisions themes than you would think you would take into account the universe it is set in which is a well-developed and wide-ranging universe.
Your explanation of Tom Clancy universe is the kind of intellectual argument that the OP didn't find in the article's comment section. Unlike those comments, yours actually addresses the points. I think that's really the OP's complain (too many STFUs, too little refutals)
 

Gorrath

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MCerberus said:
StatusNil said:
Kingjackl said:
I think it's sad that we've gone from "games are art" to "games are a product, fuck off with your fancy thinkin' talk". You'd think at least the Escapist community would accept that.
Well, speaking only for myself, my anti-intellectual insistence on games as a product rather than works of art is based on the analyses of the "culture industry" by the "Frankfurt School" Critical Theorists, especially Theodor Adorno. Briefly put, the authorship of anything beyond the simplest "indie" game is inescapably compromised by the need for mass appeal to fund the working of the capitalist mode of production required to create it. This means that the developer is not acting in the privileged role of the "autonomous artist", who would have the necessary freedom from economic constraints to authentically explore artistic problems.
An analysis that is as short-sighted as it is damaging.
Art has always been commerce. Paintings are commissioned. Buildings built to specifications. Statues made for reasons. Music composed to the taste of the audience. Scripts given notes. Patronage in any scale is adding constraints to a piece, a critical component that actually leads to places not even the artists could have imagined. It also assumes that the artist's voice dies in any collaborate effort.

In other words, they are become hipster, destroyer of taste.
I'd also add that the post you responded to seems to ignore the fact that art is not a product but a process. While a game, like a painting, or book or hat or building, can be an art object, they are not art in and of themselves. The artistic process is only complete when the audience has reacted to the art object in question. One may argue that artistic vision is compromised by the need to conform to economic pressure, but who is to say that my reaction to that compromised vision is any less authentic? I'm not reacting to an art object that could have been, but to an art object that is. The argument that art isn't art unless it is authentic creation unbound ignores that my reaction to the object is what makes it art in the first place.
 

Hair Jordan

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CaitSeith said:
StatusNil said:
Kingjackl said:
I think it's sad that we've gone from "games are art" to "games are a product, fuck off with your fancy thinkin' talk". You'd think at least the Escapist community would accept that.
Well, speaking only for myself, my anti-intellectual insistence on games as a product rather than works of art is based on the analyses of the "culture industry" by the "Frankfurt School" Critical Theorists, especially Theodor Adorno. Briefly put, the authorship of anything beyond the simplest "indie" game is inescapably compromised by the need for mass appeal to fund the working of the capitalist mode of production required to create it. This means that the developer is not acting in the privileged role of the "autonomous artist", who would have the necessary freedom from economic constraints to authentically explore artistic problems.
Wouldn't the same apply to films? Yet, it doesn't seem uncommon to have high-budget films focused more in art than in mass appeal. Why?
The argument is complex, and requires a pretty solid grounding in philosophy and Marxism. Short answer, for someone like Cait, yes this would apply to films, as well.

However, CaitSeith's insistence on treating games as either a "product" or "works of art" is a false dichotomy, through the lens of the Frankfurt school, as Adorno would certainly have agreed. He wasn't trying to declassify them as works of art, he was trying to point out their lack of autonomy from capitalism. Mass culture wasn't the issue, is was that the culture was being imposed from above. He mentions this subject in the book he co-authored, Dialectic of Enlightenment...

"'Light' art as such, distraction, is not a decadent form. Anyone who complains that it is a betrayal of the ideal of free expression is under an illusion about society." (pg.135)

Adorno was famously difficult to comprehend, but roughly translated, this means that people aren't doing something wrong by consuming "low-brow" arwork, as it's being imposed upon them from above. People are still experiencing art, it's just that those experiences serve a particular , pedestrian, capitalistic function, as opposed to the "pure" and "free" experiences that art could motivate when it was autonomous, and presumably, working towards a negation of capitalism.

Indeed, such art - actually functioning - is fundamentally crucial to his arguments concerning mass propaganda.

It's important to keep in mind here, that Adorno, and other neo-Marxists were attempting to rationalize why the proletariat revolution had not occurred the way Marx predicted it, in the industrialized nations, and capitalism still reigned supreme. The "culture industry" was extended as a possible solution to this problem, as it called into question the humanity of the proletariat. In other words, everyone got brainwashed by culture, due in major part, to the rise of sufficiently advanced technology, which paved the way for new forms of government, like fascism.

Calling "light" art a "consumer product" only has meaning in relationship to the "functionlessness" that Ardorno championed as an ideal state of autonomous art. This function, however, has nothing to do with gameplay, or anything remotely like such a nested concept. The term is defined in a much more technical fashion, and refers to it's function as a tool to impose the "culture industry". Being bought and sold is not an automatic way to trigger this "consumer product" label, and, indeed, Adorno defends the classical relationship of the patron and the artist as being one that was capable of being able to create autonomous art.

There's a certain intrinsic level of presumed justification to Ardorno's work that's worth pointing out. His arguments about what is actually "autonomous" artwork, and what isn't, basically boils down to his own preferences.

He makes the esoteric argument that certain, purely formal, works of art come from a pure, ideal, place while everything else - does not. This is the cutoff for determining what is a "consumer product", in the realm of modern works of art. If it isn't found to be containing a strong "dialectic" in it's basic form, it's to be excluded from the very slim list of truly autonomous artwork, which, coincidentally, highly favors his home country of Germany, and his own personal taste. Representational work, almost wholesale, is suspect, even that which contains calls to political action. This is because, according to Ardorno, such calls to action can only work within the framework of their own political reality - it's not an escape. Representational artwork reflects reality, and reality is tainted. Art, for Ardorno, is supposed to be about working towards things that truly exist outside of reality, in synergy with the goal of utopia.

This is important to repeat - according to Ardorno, even other radical left-wing artists were creating artwork that was essentially no different than that of the very people they considered their intellectual opposites, unless they subscribed to Ardorno's very specific axioms as to exactly what formal elements of artwork were "autonomous" from the tainted world of capitalistic influence, and the drudgery of human feedback.

In other words, Ardorno's argument comes off a lot like saying "only by creating artwork in a very narrow, exacting way that I prescribe are you truly creating artwork free of influence", even though he denied being an elitist. He had a fervently separatist point of view, thinking that "high art" needed to be distinctly categorized because, unlike popular art, it's motivations were pure and truthful.

While influential, Ardorno isn't taken very seriously as a media critic. He had an obstinate dislike for jazz music, which some critics have pointed out, borders on racism, which gave his views on art a bad reputation. The prism of his ideological lens is very focused. Indeed, almost the entirety of human output, according to Ardorno, is unworthy of genuine consideration, which many find unnecessarily bleak. In Ardorno's view, we should pretty much hold off on legitimate artistic appreciation until the "rapture" of a neo-Marxist, post-capitalist, utopia is upon us - whenever that's supposed to happen. In the meantime, we let that utopia rest, as some sort of last hope, in contemplation of "high-art".

If anything Ardorno would probably insist that we distance ourselves from the artwork, in review, entirely, and focus on it's larger context in society, and the ways it stands to reinforce late-stage capitalism...which the OP's article was attempting, more than most, perhaps. The game's actual aesthetic qualities, such as gameplay, would be interesting in so much as they served as a good examples of the culture industry at work.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Dalsyne said:
You got me. The intellectualism in Bioshock has nothing on the universe-shattering depth of The Division.
Yeah. About that one. Whole game's based on "what if the bad guys won at the end of Rainbow Six (the novel)?", and Clancy's been a known right-wing conspiracy nutter since the '80s, and suddenly vidya talking heads are shitting their pants in collective fear-anger. We're talking about how gamers are the know-nothings?

That said, I have no beef with op-ed based on a game or two. Just don't bill it as a review if it's not going to include analysis of ludic elements, since that's generally what is considered the meat of a review.
 

Dalsyne

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Apparently telling someone I'm disappointed with the level of discussion is grounds for a warning? That's interesting.

Bombiz said:
Why would he just mean GG when he says Gamers?
I didn't. I was referring specifically to the people in the OP who were called gamers, or at least "part of gamer culture". The OP seemed to mistake the frustration of a bunch of people annoyed at the fact that the reviewer spends more time talking about politics than the actual game with people who reject deeper stories in games. Historically, this is not true, and I articulated that.
 

Bat Vader

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Dalsyne said:
Apparently telling someone I'm disappointed with the level of discussion is grounds for a warning? That's interesting.

Bombiz said:
Why would he just mean GG when he says Gamers?
I didn't. I was referring specifically to the people in the OP who were called gamers, or at least "part of gamer culture". The OP seemed to mistake the frustration of a bunch of people annoyed at the fact that the reviewer spends more time talking about politics than the actual game with people who reject deeper stories in games. Historically, this is not true, and I articulated that.
The whole point of a review is to review something, not start talking about political BS. A reviewer talking politics doesn't tell anyone how good the game-play or the mechanics of the game are. If someone wants to talk politics they should do it as a separate form of content altogether. Reviewers like the one mentioned are why I stopped paying attention to reviews and started watching Let's Plays with little to no commentary or twitch streams for how the game-play, mechanics, and story in a game are.