The Best Number 2...

[SckizoBoy]

*shrug* See where this goes...

As you may... or probably won't... know, I enjoy military history, and throughout the eras, there've been famous generals known for their tactical/operation/strategic acumen etc. (Alexander, Hannibal, Scipio Africanus Major, Caesar, Vespasian, Saladin, Gustaf Adolf, John Churchill, de Villars, Frederick II, Napoleon, Wellington, von Moltke the Elder... I'll stop there before I decide to name every damned commander I have an ounce or more of respect for), but I wonder just how much or little we know and/or respect about those who served under them (e.g. Parmenion, Mago/Maharbal, Silanus/Laelius, - weirdly, I don't really know that many of Caesar's underlings by name :/ - Titus, Turan-Shah, Lennart Torstenson, Charles Churchill/John Cutts/Prince Eugene, - to be honest, I found most of the French commanders of the War of Spanish Succession to be idiots - der Alter Dessauer, Davout/Oudinot, John Moore/James Leith/Lord Uxbridge, Herwarth von Bittenfeld, and so on and so forth). Many of these aforementioned people had a hand in the development of their seniors' genius so does one think that said military genius come from no small amount of luck for having the right people around?

Discussion point: military commanders who got less credit than they deserved... go.

 

[Lilani]

I came here fully expecting a thread on poop. I am suitably impressed.

 

[FURY_007]

William Tecumseh Sherman is the only person I can think of, but he got all the credit that he deserved

 

[SckizoBoy]

Herwarth von Bittenfeld

I'm getting that put on my next set of dogtags >_<

In response to seeing that name? Or because you respect the man?

 

[the spud]

Hannibal's best "Dog of War". I forgot his name (in fact, for all I know, you may have already mentioned him), but from what I read on cracked, he was the best general in history, and conquered more land than anyone else.

 

[The Diabolical Biz]

I came here fully expecting a thread on poop. I am suitably impressed.

True that, you may want to change the title OP!

OT: Admittedly my knowledge of military history isn't up to scratch, but what's that old Napoleon quote about luck...

Something about not caring about how much skill and tactical genius new officers had, but how much luck? Something like that.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Erwin Rommel, the Desert Fox. I have a great deal of respect for this man, and I find it sad that today so many people associate the entire German armed forces in World War 2 as being evil Nazis.

Not the case with Rommel. His soldiers did not have a single war crime to their record. When forced to choose between his family and his duty after being implicated in the Operation Valkyrie assassination plot, Rommel chose suicide to protect his family.

 

[SckizoBoy]

OT: Admittedly my knowledge of military history isn't up to scratch, but what's that old Napoleon quote about luck...

Something about not caring about how much skill and tactical genius new officers had, but how much luck? Something like that.

Ah yes... I actually learnt of that quote rather tangentially... from watching the Guns of Navarone of all things:

'"Yes, yes, I know the man's talented, but is he lucky?!" ... and the Emperor knew the value of luck'

Or words to that effect...

Erwin Rommel, the Desert Fox. I have a great deal of respect for this man, and I find it sad that today so many people associate the entire German armed forces in World War 2 as being evil Nazis.

Not the case with Rommel. His soldiers did not have a single war crime to their record. When forced to choose between his family and his duty after being implicated in the Operation Valkyrie assassination plot, Rommel chose suicide to protect his family.

I could write reams about the WWII German commanders, most notably Rommel (as you mention), Guderian, von Manstein, and the 'SS commander with a soul' (Bittrich). Debatably, Rommel did more to develope/propagate Blitzkrieg than Guderian did (i.e. conduct during Fall Gelb).

Oh yeah... and the desert war... probably the 'cleanest' war of the century. Can't remember his name, but a British colonel was captured early on and wrote about Rommel and made an explicit point of the degree of civility that the two sides afforded each other. Never going to happen again...

 

[Soviet Heavy]

OT: Admittedly my knowledge of military history isn't up to scratch, but what's that old Napoleon quote about luck...

Something about not caring about how much skill and tactical genius new officers had, but how much luck? Something like that.

Ah yes... I actually learnt of that quote rather tangentially... from watching the Guns of Navarone of all things:

'"Yes, yes, I know the man's talented, but is he lucky?!" ... and the Emperor knew the value of luck'

Or words to that effect...

Erwin Rommel, the Desert Fox. I have a great deal of respect for this man, and I find it sad that today so many people associate the entire German armed forces in World War 2 as being evil Nazis.

Not the case with Rommel. His soldiers did not have a single war crime to their record. When forced to choose between his family and his duty after being implicated in the Operation Valkyrie assassination plot, Rommel chose suicide to protect his family.

I could write reams about the WWII German commanders, most notably Rommel (as you mention), Guderian, von Manstein, and the 'SS commander with a soul' (Bittrich). Debatably, Rommel did more to develope/propagate Blitzkrieg than Guderian did (i.e. conduct during Fall Gelb).

Oh yeah... and the desert war... probably the 'cleanest' war of the century. Can't remember his name, but a British colonel was captured early on and wrote about Rommel and made an explicit point of the degree of civility that the two sides afforded each other. Never going to happen again...

One of my favorite things about Rommel I heard about on the Military Channel. A British Commando had been captured during the Invasion of Europe, and was taken to Rommel, who had been given instructions to execute any commando prisoner. Instead, the soldier and Rommel sat down and had a chat over tea, where they discussed why they shouldn't be fighting each other.

Rommel said that England and Germany should join forces against the threat of Communism. The Commando responds that England couldn't do that because of the two countries' divided opinions on the Jews.

Rommel's response? "Now you're talking about politics." and he ended the conversation, but not before telling the commando that he would be treated well and with respect as a fellow soldier.

That is truly badass.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Military is not my strong point but there is one underrated commander that I know of (I could be wrong about this).

Remember the film 300 at the battle of Thermopylae, did it occur to you why didn't King Xerxes just sail his ships behind King Leonidis 300 and sneak up on him? Well they could of except for Themistocles (I think that was his name) naval forces who were blocking his ships path.

Themistocles was a smart man as this wasn't the first time the Persian tried to invade Greece. He knew they would attack again which the people didn't believe him. He knew that Greece needed more ships so he bluff his way out into getting more.

Also due to learning from the last Persian war, the new ships were design to be more effective against the Persian ship (it built more as a battery ram as it ram into their ships and pull out, a hit and run per say).

Anyway his tales didn't end like 300 as when he learn of King Leonidis death, he withdrawn his navel ships as there was no longer any point in staying.

Anything I think he was an underrated commander seeing how everyone know Leonidis more than him (well ok it's thanks to 300 but before that there was that 300 Spartans film).

 

[Veylon]

Rommel said that England and Germany should join forces against the threat of Communism. The Commando responds that England couldn't do that because of the two countries' divided opinions on the Jews.

Rommel's response? "Now you're talking about politics." and he ended the conversation, but not before telling the commando that he would be treated well and with respect as a fellow soldier.

That is truly badass.

Before we get too in love with Rommel and other upright dutiful German officers, lets not forget that however uninterested they might have been in politics, they had the luxury of simply ending an uncomfortable conversation and ignoring the consequences of their actions.

Rommel could fight a clean war because he was sent where the Nazis desired (or at least permitted) a clean war to be fought. Had he been sent to the Eastern Front, he could not have offered a NKVD officer or simple Russian sergeant such assurances as he did the British man. He would have had the choice of seeing POWs under his charge starve to death and civilians shot en masse or resign his commission. In Europe and Africa he was never directly confronted with such a conflict between honor and duty.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

Alexander Hamilton, but mostly in regards to his political work. Dude basically hand-crafted the US economy.

Benedict Arnold was also a pretty awesome number 2 (he, he), but he ended up betraying the US for not getting the credit he deserved, so we generally look down on the guy today.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

Paddy Mayne. He basically made the SAS

He was very much the number two to his superior officer in the SAS: David Stirling, who is credited as the founder of the SAS, but really Sterling's role was only superior in rank: Maine was the one that managed to mastermind, lead, and successfully execute the vast majority of the incredibly dangerous raids behind enemy lines in the WW2 Desert campaign.

Some of the things he got up to on the battlefield... and off them... are legendary. He narrowly missed out on getting a Victoria Cross, but several sources believe he was refused because of his blatant hatred and frequent violent outbursts at superior officers.

EDIT:
Taken straight from Wikipedia:

His leadership on the raid had attracted the attention of Captain David Stirling who recruited him as one of the early members of the Special Air Service (SAS). Mayne was under arrest for hitting his Commanding Officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Geoffrey Charles Tasker Keyes, and his release from arrest was obtained so that he could join the newly-formed SAS. From November 1941 through to the end of 1942, Mayne participated in many night raids deep behind enemy lines in the deserts of Egypt and Libya, where the SAS wrought havoc by destroying many enemy aircraft on the ground. Mayne pioneered the use of military Jeeps to conduct surprise hit-and-run raids, particularly on enemy airfields. It was claimed that he had personally destroyed up to 100 aircraft. His first successful raid at Tamet on 14 December 1941, where aircraft and petrol dumps were destroyed, helped keep the SAS in existence, following the failure of the previous intial raid behind enemy lines. The regular Army wanted to disband the SAS but the success helped keep the critics at bay.

The previous raid they mention was the one Sterling had commanded. If it wasn't for Maynes spectacular success in the second raid we probably wouldn't have the SAS today!

 

[Lancer873]

Where the hell is Genghis Khan on that list? I'd say he deserves it. He was a brilliant siege tactician that created one of the largest empires known to man using unusual tactics, more importantly he constantly learned new tactics, there was never a point where he just became a great tactician. So what's the Mongolian empire remembered as? Uncoordinated brutes. Screw ignorant history.

 

[Aerosteam]

I came here fully expecting a thread on poop. I am suitably impressed.

Shit, me two =/

 

[Berenzen]

Honestly, I would say Agrippa is fairly unknown, Octavian/Augustus- the first Roman Emperor for those who don't know- takes most of the credit for the victory at Actium, but really it was Agrippa that was responsible for most of the victory there as well as many other battles that Octavian's armies fought. If this man had failed, the entire world as we know it would be completely different- as the center of power would shift to Egypt.

Shit, me two =/

Both puns intended?

 

[SckizoBoy]

Rommel could fight a clean war because he was sent where the Nazis desired (or at least permitted) a clean war to be fought. Had he been sent to the Eastern Front, he could not have offered a NKVD officer or simple Russian sergeant such assurances as he did the British man. He would have had the choice of seeing POWs under his charge starve to death and civilians shot en masse or resign his commission. In Europe and Africa he was never directly confronted with such a conflict between honor and duty.

You'd be surprised how civil the Eastern Front could be at times... read the biography of Erich Hartmann, he learnt most of his cold weather maintenance tricks from captured Russian pilots and he met his first kill in Ukraine and had quite a chat with him.

Mainly the name, I have the utmost respect for anyone who's fired a weapon in service of their country. That's a very very long list as it's not limited to any particular country

I can give you quite a list of commanders with funky names if you interested! -_-