The Big Picture: Americana

[Frankfurter4444]

Bob, if you do an episode on the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, please make sure to educate us some on their back-story. The whole part about how the Ninja Turtles' original creation was as a parody to the grim and gritty style of comics in the 1980s and 1990s is something that fascinates me, but I don't know much about; and I'd like someone who knows a little more about that era in general and this franchise in particular to educate me.

So if you're going to do the Turtles, Bob, please do them all the way.

 

[mikev7.0]

Just y'know, not too lazy to well, oh i dunno', invent cinema so it could be known today period

Cinema was invented through a succession of discoveries, inventions and perfecting of previous inventions from various countries. The cinematograph itself was a French invention, its name created by Léon Bouly and used again later by the Lumière brothers for their invention. Which used Edison's Kinetoscope. Which itself relied on previous experiments and innovations from Europe, for instance William Friese-Greene's chronophotographic camera, patented in 1889.

Earlier, if I quote wikipedia, "Moving images were produced on revolving drums and disks in the 1830s with independent invention by Simon von Stampfer (Stroboscope) in Austria, Joseph Plateau (Phenakistoscope) in Belgium and William Horner (zoetrope) in Britain."

Of course we can go back earlier and earlier until it's simply photography, or even earlier than that. But the fact is that depicting cinema as a solely American invention is misleading. It was the product of scientists from all over the world which influenced one another until we reached what we have today. And I stopped at the cinematograph, because that's the word we still used today, but quite obviously many other innovations have happened since.

*facepalm* Okaaaaaaay let me try to rephrase that then. Where did the first Cimema or Movie Theatre or Film studio for that matter open? It was in the States. Who made it relevant? Again. The States. Yet thank god there are qualified experts in the field of when cinema was invented (as well as named, and probably have the names of each nations first movie memorized too, I officially, don't.) so that we can all make sure that in spite of the obvious spirit of my post, which was basically stating that it's the States that made movies actually mean a fucking thing, it can be pointed out that we didn't invent the moving picture. Although, and I can not say it more plainly than this: The States invented ways to do productive and profitable things with the motion picture or camera. Clear e-fuckingnough yet for you there, Tesla? Oh. Wait. He was from the states too wasn't he? Hey how did the "first" movie camera work without Alternating Current? Oh. It didn't. How do you operate a Movie Theatre without it in any meaningfull way? Oh. You don't. Sorry, maybe I should have just said "Movies" but (yeah I have to laugh at this too) I actually assumed that the "intelligencia" that is the Escapist would see what I meant. Riiiiiight. I was being a moron.

That was an impressive history of basically the camera but not really what I meant, and I think you actually knew that.

Oh and are you seriously quoting Wikipedia as a credible source? Sorry. I have the same policy as a school. I don't accept Wikipedia as a source because, well, I don't fucking have to and it's controlled by people like you who could argue about the minutia of shit that just doesn't matter ad infinitum. Fancy enough for ya there, Podolsky?

 

[mikev7.0]

Notice that all "counter-examples" Bob listed are campy, in-name-only "adaptations" very loosely based on the matter and mostly a result of the difficulty of getting Us made films into said countries. (Using Turkish Star Wars as an example is just bad, bad research).

On the flipside, all american "adaptations" are either verbatim movieola copies of the original, or manage to turn rather dark, or otherwise original films into mid-level dross by incorporating all the necessities that the average US moviegoer needs to feel good about himself.

Let The Right One In did not need a remake, especially not one two (?) years after the original. Neither does the Millenium trilogy.

America, if you must, must turn to other cultures and mythologies for inspiration and rape them beyond recognition, at least do it with something that is older than 5 years, you lazy shmucks.

Just y'know, not too lazy to well, oh i dunno', invent cinema so it could be known today period you ignorant fucking ingrate. I say ignorant because aparently you aren't aware that the reason Hollywood basically owns international film (and they do, quit dreaming) is because it was invented here. Y'know on one of our more active days. When we weren't inventing the computer so you could piss off on us about that too! FUCK you!!

Whoa there buddy. The post you're quoting was a tad inflamatory but that's no reason to get worked up about it. Cinema was a bit of a group effort on the part of the people of the world. In fact I seem to recall a lot of the early innovations actually occurring primarily in France (though I might be wrong). I get a bit cheesed myself that people often seem to paint US with a broad brush but posts like this just reinforce negative images of US in a lot of people's minds.

edit: looks like someone else already beat me to the history of cinema

Yeah and gosh but that all kindsa' breaks my heart....

Waitaminute. You're from the States and you want to argue with me about whether or not anyone who enjoys movies today has the States to thank for that??!!

*blinks*

Aw, nuts. I'm all outta' facepalm....

 

[mikev7.0]

Bob, if you do an episode on the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, please make sure to educate us some on their back-story. The whole part about how the Ninja Turtles' original creation was as a parody to the grim and gritty style of comics in the 1980s and 1990s is something that fascinates me, but I don't know much about; and I'd like someone who knows a little more about that era in general and this franchise in particular to educate me.

So if you're going to do the Turtles, Bob, please do them all the way.

I was a comic collector back then and that first appearance issue that got to be worth so much money so quickly, was according to Eastman and Laird, a 14 page joke that they took to comic book conventions, hoping to get noticed but not realizing that they would find a serious publisher for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Eastman and Lairds style was like nothing out there and still today has not been reproduced faithfully. (I think it might be because they can't?) Well, you tell me why we haven't seen an animated series yet that does?
That style doesn't lend itself well to animation? *Looks at intros for recent Street Fighter titles....* Coulda' fooled me....

 

[masterbazza]

*RAISES HAND*

 

[Jaythulhu]

What the FUCK is with the shitty video advertising at the start of this? If I click a video on the escapist site, it's because I've chosen to use my bandwidth on THAT video, not on any spam that starts automatically downloading and playing. Sorry for going OT, Bob, but having that drek pop up in my face without warning means I'm not bothering to watch your latest episode. I'm sure it was interesting though.

 

[carnex]

Well, the big issue is that Hollywood makes horrible movies from the licences (not that most other their movies are not horrible) and makes a buck while doing it.

Second, they "americanise" many of the characters and stories while pretending to keep the original pretense. Like, if they made Asterix movie, Asterix would be small teen desperately trying to get into the high-school American Football team but failing, but one day some fat guy fighting some bullies offers him magic potion of strength in exchange for help. That's what people hate more than anything. Asian remakes at least don't claim continuity with the original, just the visual identity.

And lastly. Hollywood pours tens of millions of dollars into this movies and you can just shake head at them feeling disappointed. Turkish Star Wars was cheap and bad but highly entertaining. When you can't laugh with it you can laugh at it. Same goes for many other knockoff's from Asia and that is far, FAR better then what Hollywood does.

Hollywood has all the money movie industry can muster yet they take other peoples's ideas and not just remake/make them into movie but butcher them in the process. Just to show who the boss is, metaphorically raping the author.

 

[Endocrom]

Heh, I actually own Lady Terminator on VHS.

Also, if you want to see something really bad/good search youtube for "Turkish Star Trek".

 

[Avistew]

I'm not sure why so many people are upset about American remakes like it's a new thing. Or remaking/adapting ideas in the first place. Isn't that the whole Disney schtick? Has there been any Disney movie that didn't come from a fairy tale/ legend /children book or something?

And they change things, yes, but sometimes it's good. What would be Beauty and the Beast without the talking furniture? Or Aladdin if it followed the original story? Or Cinderella if the shoe had been fur and the sisters cut off part of their feet to try and fool the Prince by being able to put the shoe on?

If they're not going to release the original movie (when there is one), then it's probably a good thing that they change something. Doing the exact same thing, that's what would frustrate me. Instead of releasing a perfectly good movie, recreating it all? It seems like a waste. A loss of audience for the original movie, and a lot of time and effort for making one that's identical - but with known actors and in English.

As for remakes raping the authors or something, I'm fairly sure that when something is copyrighted, they buy the rights. The US is pretty big on that. That means the original creators are allowed to refuse.

I personally do think it would be better to show movies from around the world more widely. On the other hand, you can do both. You can have, say, the Beauty and the Beast movie with Jean Marais, AND the Disney cartoon. And as long as they're clear that it's a remake or an adaptation, they can make people aware of the original, too.

Hollywood has a bunch of problems, but I don't think any of them are only present in remakes from other countries or caused by them. Lack of originality? Well look at most of the movies being released. Taking existing stories? Hell yes, they take from comics and novels all the time. Sometimes they make the movie of a TV show too. Lots of spending for a crappy result? Do I really need to name examples for that one (hint, lots of special effects that don't always look good and nonsensical plot).

But there are good American movies, of course. Complaining about Hollywood is sometimes a bit easy, like complaining about "American food" as though it was all fast food when there is so much more to it. If you want to find the good stuff, you need to look harder for it, it's sad but that's how it works. I think it's true of remakes too. There might be a lot of crappy ones but you'll find excellent ones as well.

 

[Bobbovski]

Hmm... I'm a bit on the fence when it comes to remakes. On one hand I would love if more foreign movies could get a chance in America so that Americans can become exposed to more foreign cultures/languages (and help foreign movies become blockbusters). On the other hand it might not be realistic to expect the average American to be interested in a foreign movie set in a foreign country that forces them to read subs. So it might be better to gain people's interests via a remake and then let people discover the original via the remake.

 

[jcg]

that forces them to read subs.

This always gets to me, is reading so hard for americans? As a dutch person i'm more or less forced to read subtitles on any movie i watch. And if i'm lucky the subtitles are dutch, but i have no issues with english subtitles. German oned are a bit trickier, but germans dub everything and spoken german is easy enough.

 

[starslasher]

Thanks for bringing this topic, MovieBob. I would have picked Death at a Funeral for a much more obvious choice for americanised movie. Another title would be Infernal Affairs/ The Departed.

We do good Americanizations as well, e.g. Insomnia.

When you cover the TMNT anime, I'd be interested to hear five seconds on how you found the 2007 CGI film done by Imagi. I found it to be sorely underrated for what it was, and had some outstanding visual design, but maybe your super-cinema eyeballs know something I don't.

And I guess Power Rangers is okay for the kiddies today, but I liked it better the first time when it was called Voltron.

Anyway, all this plus: great episode, plus: SAMURAI PIZZA CATS!

hooray I'm not the only one who knows about samurai pizza cats!

I know about them as well. Man i might have seen only a few episodes when i was a kid, but they still made an impact on me!

 

[Avistew]

On the other hand it might not be realistic to expect the average American to be interested in a foreign movie set in a foreign country that forces them to read subs.

See, I'm pretty sure that's a vicious cycle here. Lots of other countries are fine with it because they're used to it. But the reason why you can't expect the Average American to be interested in it is because they're not used to it. Because this doesn't happen often. Because they wouldn't go. Because they're not used to it. And so on.

Some movies are released in the US with subtitles and are still successful. It's possible that not everyone would go to see them but some people might. And if subtitles are the problem, dubbing exists, and it would cost less than remaking the whole thing. Plus you can use famous voice actors to attract people.

I don't think it can change overnight or anything, but introducing more and more good movies from all around the world would be great. On the other hand, it also means we have to go see them, because if they're not successful people will stop doing it.

I also think people are more fine with reading subtitles than you give them credit for. First Class is in English, German, Spanish and French at least. And maybe Russian? I can't remember for sure. The point is, the movie starts with a foreign language with subtitles and has them all over it, even though they're not the majority of the movie. If they had thought Americans would react poorly to it, they wouldn't have taken the risks, and they'd have had everyone speak English with accents from wherever they're supposed to be, as is sometimes done.

 

[carnex]

Problem comes from the fact that foreign movies, in most cases, don't generate much money, if any. Because of that production companies don't want to licence foreign movies. And even if they did, theater owners won't screen them because they don't earn their keep, metaphorically.

So, to even give a chance to USA citizen to get exposed to different school of movie making, two groups must be willing to get in high risk endeavor. That is very unlikely.

Also, even if they were willing to get into that high risk environment, that again means giving money to studio outside USA (which is a bit stupid since SONY owns so many studios) which is yet another obstacle.

Truth is, most of foreign movies that come to USA are simplistic, easy to follow and comprehend. Those movies are fun and good but European school is highly symbolic and multilayered. Sadly those movies, while adored by critics, are often welcomed with few fans.

Will US Citizens get exposed to foreign movies then? Not likely. Average movie goer looks forward to spectacle and between one and two hours of escapism from the real world, not show with provoking questions and complex, hard to follow plots.

This is my opinion of course, but the facts are there to support my words.

Even with that, I would like for everyone to stop making remakes/reimaginings of any original movie, except by the original author. It was made, most of the time, to represent the author's idea the first time. Modifying the work doesn't present someone's idea as much as it corrupts the original author's idea in eyes of many.

 

[EgonCom]

Movie Bob: America is not the only country remaking other country franchises.

Listen Bob. Remake != Rip Off, and Rip Off != Remake.

 

[plainlake]

Remakes are worse, if the original was any good, but really, people that cant be bothered to read subtitles deserves an inferior product. More people will learn of the original through the new marketing. I just hope they are able to set a remake of trollhunter in the norwegian landscape..

 

[Giest4life]

I don't think it'd be an exaggeration if I said this: I LOVED this episode. Do what you do best, Mr. Bob, be a geek.

 

[Crimson_Dragoon]

No, Bob, don't do it. Don't go into the TMNT anime. I've seen it and that is a can of worms you don't want to open.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Oh the irony of Bob's show being used to advertise the latest transformers film.