The Big Picture: Batman Revisited, Part 1

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Mushroom Camper
Sep 30, 2009
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I never really liked the movie as a kid. Something about it always made me feel nausious, stuffy and uncomfortable, like being in a room with rising damp. I've not watched it as an adult however.

DVS BSTrD said:
I get all the symbolism behind it, but I've always hated that cat suit.
I always felt it defined the charater well. Damaged and barely holding together which made her unpredictable. It made for a much more intresting villan than catwomans other incarnations who are mostly just cheesecake anti-heros.
 

Tireseas_v1legacy

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Sep 28, 2009
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To be honest, I never liked the 90s batman movies, although their impact was significant.

The main reason is that the comic-book styling of those movies didn't mesh well with the clunky dialog and the unrelatable characters. You knew you were watching a movie, and that just didn't work out too well...
 

sleeky01

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Jan 27, 2011
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Brad Gardner said:
I have to state this before he gets to Batman and Robin. I love Batman and Robin. It was fun and funny. Everyone hates it for whatever reason, but I love the obsertity of it. I also love David Hasslehoff's Nick Fury much more that Samuel 'mother fucking' Jackson. It's just who I am.
Good Christ! I never even knew this existed. I gotta go find it now> :D

 

Kekkonen1

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Nov 8, 2010
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For me there is only one reason I love this movie: Michael Keaton. No one plays batman with that kind of quiet authority and just generally being intimidating without even trying. Also the bat-costume looks really cool before it became all bloated plastic with nipples.

Maybe Keaton playing an older Bruce Wayne/Batman in the next Batman-franchise after the Nolan-triology? That would be pretty cool!
 

Scars Unseen

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May 7, 2009
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Riddle me this, Batman: Can you really call part 1 of a multi-episode topic "The Big Picture?"
 

Brandchan

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Oct 6, 2010
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I still enjoyed Batman Returns but it is where you can see things get very silly. I mean the Penguin's penguin army with rockets strapped to them? I think I would still enjoy Batman and Batman Returns today but looking back makes you go "Whoa!" these movies are way sillier then I remember.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Sep 1, 2007
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Anime tends to have glaring flaws but I still love it. If at its core its a good film it will still show through no matter how badly its put together.
 

Redd the Sock

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Apr 14, 2010
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Nice to know I'm not the only one that didn't quite get that movie. The only things I really remembered from my first watchings where when the Joker was on screen, and having to dial up the contrast to see more than black blurs. Bruce Wayne was dull, Vicky Vale was annoying, and Batman spent more time glowering than doing anything. Then in hindsight, I still think Jim Carrey in his prime would have been a far better joker than Nicholson, and while I'm no longer bored to tears, I still can't care about anything or one in the film.
 

lord.jeff

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Oct 27, 2010
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I know I'll get some flack for saying this but Batman Returns is my least favorite of the Batman movies, sure the two following movies are probably worse movies but I was at least laughing the whole way through those.
 

Xenominim

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Jan 11, 2011
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The first Batman movie being flawed I don't think would surprise most people. A lot of folks have pointed out the absurdity before of how quickly he gives up his secret identity, or how he seems to be fine with killing with blowing up the factory and sending Joker to his death. But the style along with Keaton and Nicholson were enough still to make it into an icon.

Plus it gave us what is still the best Batmobile to date. I mean I like the new movies, but that tank thing is just nowhere near as badass looking despite however much more practical it may be.
 

maximara

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Jul 13, 2008
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AlexanderPeregrine said:
I think the worst part about the Joker killing Batman's parents is not only how it's a blunt, shallow, and lazy way to up the stakes, but it also makes it feel like the whole world revolves around Bruce Wayne. It started the trend of so many action movies being downright narcissistic.

As a long time comic book reader and researcher I think this direction was effectively the only thing new that could be done with the origin.

In 1956 the comic book version of Joe Chill had been upgraded from just some random crook to a hitman hired by Mob boss Lew Moxon to take out the Waynes because Thomas had sent him to jail years before and his crusading was interfering in his current operations. The reason Bruce was let live was to provide Moxon with an alibi. So in the comics you already had this upping of the stakes.

Those stakes got upped further in Detective Comics #500 (1981) aka "To Kill a Legend" where Batman and Robin are sent to a parallel Earth to stop the murder of his parents. Knowing about the connection between Chill and Moxon they go in and threatened Moxon not realizing he hasn't met Chill yet. Scared, Moxon hires another hitman who kills Chill on his way to kill the Waynes.

Batman arrives in time and knocks the new hitman out. We never see this new hitman's face clearly but the outfit is *very* familiar--purple pants and a purple shirt--the traditional colors of the Joker.

Given all this and the time constraints of the movie all that was left was to make the purple suited hitman into the Joker.
 

StriderShinryu

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Dec 8, 2009
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My number one issue with the Burton Batman films is actual Micheal Keaton. I really enjoy him as an actor, and think he does a pretty competent Bruce Wayne (though totally not the brooding depressive we're used to), but I never believed him as Batman.
 

Soviet Heavy

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Jan 22, 2010
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I hope that Bob touches on the DCAU after Batman Returns. Starting with Mask of the Phantasm and then all the way to Justice League Unlimited would be great.
 

mindlesspuppet

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Jun 16, 2004
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I have to say I like the 1989 the best of any Batman movies.

I've seen it more times than I could possibly count (largely due to how long its been around). I've re-watched with each new Batman movie in recent years, so I certainly don't have nostalgia glasses.

To counter some of Bob's points;
Franchises weren't as intentional back in the day, not they way we see them these days at least. A successful movie didn't guarantee a sequel, thus things couldn't linger the way we allow them today. This is why it makes sense that The Joker killed Wayne's parents, it allowed the whole story to be tied nicely in a bow and provide Batman with some additional motivation -- it's also responsible for what is, in my opinion, one of the best movie quotes of all time, "have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight,".

Jack Nicholson as the Joker made sense in that it got adults at the time at least some what interested in the movie. The same case could be made for the all Prince soundtrack (which I'm shocked Bob didn't mention), Prince was huge and brought a ton of attention the movie might not have received otherwise. Had it not been for the popularity of these individuals it's impossible to say whether the movie would have had the success, and influence, that it did.

The most frequent gripe about Batman is that it wasn't a Batman movie, but a Joker one (as Bob pointed out). The thing is Batman/Bruce Wayne simply isn't a very interesting character, never really has been as far as I'm concerned. He simply doesn't have personality traits that make other superheroes great; the alcohol and ego issues that define Tony Stark, the sense of awkwardness that comes with Steve Rogers, even the perfect boy-scout mentality of the all-powerful Clarke Kent is more dynamic.

This is one of the reasons that through most of Batman's existence he's had Robin. Robin is interesting (yes, all of them). Moreover, Robin allows Wayne to be more than just a brooding, obsessive crime fighter: he makes him human. Nolan attempted to do the same via Rachel Dawes --and failed miserably if you ask me. And for what it's worth is there anyone that could argue The Dark Knight wasn't every bit, if not more, of a Joker movie than Burton's Batman?

Moving on...
The Joker has never picked the most discreet locations for hideouts, yet for some reason Batman never seems to just head straight to Amusement Mile or the abandon candy factory. So Burton's Batman being just as oblivious as the rest doesn't seem like a huge issue.

The "heavy handed rips on the cosmetic industry" is fitting for the more clown-esc portrayals of the Joker. I recall an episode of the animated series where he creates/promotes "Joker Fish", like his foray into cosmetics it's just the kind of nonsensical humor one would expect from such a character.

The thing about the Joker is that sometimes he's funny haha, other times he's funny hehe. What I'm saying is that his certain variety of crazy is by no means consistent. His sanity (or lack there of) runs the entire gamut: one day he's a maniacal sadist that loves to make people suffer the next the next he's the clown with an affinity for puns that does it all for the lulz. I think Burton's Batman did a better job than most at showing the Joker in this light, even if Nicholson hammed it up a bit.

I'd keep going but this is long as is...
 

irishda

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Dec 16, 2010
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I liked the "boring, black-leather" trend in costumes for superhero movies, if only because I'm always glad to see movies play it loose with the source material.

If "movies are weird" (God I hate that voice), comic books are ridiculous. No one ever dies (except Uncle Ben), women are constantly contorted into strange positions to show off their racks, and origin stories tend to get pretty bland. It's been a mainstay of the more successful comic-book movies to delve deeper into some of the subtext the source material can provide, but adhering to comic canon and imagery on everything would look stupid, "nipples on a batsuit" stupid.

How much harder would people have mocked Hawkeye if he had that "super-cool" purple outfit with the Mcdonald's arches over his eyes? Or Galactus being a giant alien "walking" to Earth? Or if Bane had gone with the wrestling spandex?

If you want to make an awesome comic-book movie, it helps to lighten up on the source material, otherwise you wind up with something that looks ridiculous and takes itself way too seriously, like Abe Lincoln: Vampire Hunter.
 

UNHchabo

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Dec 24, 2008
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Regarding the villains moving the story along:

This is one of the reasons I love Vincent Price's "Doctor Phibes" movies; the end credits list both the "good guy" actor and Vincent Price as "The Protagonists".

By the way Bob, I think you should do a "Big Picture" on the Phibes movies. They seem right up this show's alley. :)