The Big Picture: Blecch, Dull Tests

[Alterego-X]

The Bechdel test was really meant, particularly in the '80s when there was not a lot out there in regards to female characters onscreen, to show how few women get to be on screen in a role that isn't mainly limited to the love interest or the damsel in distress, something you call out quite frequently in your reviews and other critiques. It was more relevant then than now really, as we see Hollywood embracing a slightly more gender equity solution.

I wouldn't say that 40% of movies failing the test instead of 50% is quite the differnce to be proud of.

http://bechdeltest.com/statistics/

Compared to the sheer implausibility of a movie in which there are no two men to talk about something else than women, even 10% would be a too high number.

The 80's had plenty of feminist icon female heroes, the problem was not with that, but with everyone else in the setting being male by default unless their femaleness was necessary for the plot, and even if there were two or three women out of a dozen characters, they had nothing to do but talk about the other (male) characters.

This is still a problem just like it was in the 80's.

 

[SoulChaserJ]

My sincerest kudos Moviebob...this was one of the very few "Big Pictures" that actually did present the big picture. I like these kinds of shows the best. Keep it up

 

[Steve the Pocket]

See, this just goes to demonstrate a larger point about feminism, and indeed a lot of issues with present-day culture: The central problem isn't that there shouldn't be any of X, or that Y must be everywhere, but that there's overall too much X and not enough Y. And that's hard to fix, short of just shaming everyone who creates something that contains any X or doesn't contain any Y.

Fun fact: I used to run a webcomic. While I wouldn't go as far as to call it un-feminist, its premise was... something I'm definitely not proud of, in hindsight. At one point it dawned on me that I had not only passed the Bechdel Test long ago, I actually had more individual strips that passed it than ones that didn't thanks to a story arc involving the protagonist and her friend that ran on way longer than I had expected. Even at the time, I knew that the strip ran afoul of the actual ideals behind the test, and considered making banner ads with the tagline "Proof that the Bechdel Test is useless." But I was worried that people would take that the opposite way than I intended.

 

[-Dragmire-]

How do films from other cultures fare when applied to this test?

 

[Hutzpah Chicken]

Bob, you managed to make a 6 minute video about something I've never heard of. The idea of a "test" like that is really pointless, as the only worthy test that a producer can use is to produce the movie and see if people go and watch it. Who even is this Bechdel guy anyway?

 

[hentropy]

It's true that some have taken the test a bit too seriously- it was never meant to be the end-all-be-all of feminist litmus tests, and I don't condone those that treat it like it is.

Still, you have to ask, could Pacific Rim had been made WORSE by simply including a major secondary female character? I think this is why people push the test, not because all these that fail it are bad movies, but because we just want filmmakers to be more conscious that movies can only be made better by adding more decent female characters that aren't singularly defined/concerned with men.

I never really thought Mako Mori was that great a character in the first place. If she's the standard, then we need a better one. A woman who simply kicks ass does not a good character make. She's not bad, but hardly a complex one. Especially considering Pacific Rim's anime roots, you can look at variety of anime movies shows to find much more complex female characters, even in a culture that is still patriarchal and male-centric.

The point being that movies should at least make an effort, rather than just putting the token girl in it and have her beat up some guys in order to prove she's a good character who deserves a place in the movie.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I mean, why couldn't the Terminator look female?

lol, as opposed to what? Its a robot version of Arnold Schwarzenegger and its supposed to be intimidating, so why would it have metal breast[footnote] Or any other characteristic that is identified as female.[/footnote]?

OP:Hmmm... the Mako Mori test, I like it. Makes more sense than the other test, which would tell you that movies like X-Men 3 fails even though Jean is a pretty strong character in the movie.

 

[JarinArenos]

Surprised how completely Bob missed the point here. The test is a tool to determine the quantity of female characters, not the quality. No one ever claimed differently, so not really sure what the point here is supposed to be.

Honestly, all I've seen is people claiming the test claims differently; mostly people who are trying to set up a nice strawman to knock down. The test was, is, and will remain a good test of the industry, though, when looking at how many (or rather few) movies in total manage to pass.

 

[Evonisia]

That opening was superb, and I fully agree on the points raised.

 

[Abomination]

I'm sorry but you can't just sacrifice the value of a test under the "isn't important on an individual level" field causing it to gain value under the "is a good reflection of movie society as a whole" field.

WHY is it a good measure of how films are as a whole? If it isn't valuable on an individual level and has proven time and again to actually ignore valuable characters and fail otherwise female empowering movies then how could it possibly be a reliable test to measure the entire CULTURE as a whole?

I think even Frozen is one conversation about chocolate away from failing. Do we need a test to show what movies almost fail the test and the percentage of times the women in it talk about things other than men together?

 

[Redd the Sock]

See, this just goes to demonstrate a larger point about feminism, and indeed a lot of issues with present-day culture: The central problem isn't that there shouldn't be any of X, or that Y must be everywhere, but that there's overall too much X and not enough Y. And that's hard to fix, short of just shaming everyone who creates something that contains any X or doesn't contain any Y.

The thing about saying there's too much of X, kind of implies something never given: the acceptable amount, or maybe the reasonable amount. Some media are going to fair whatever "sexist test" we might ever devise, and unless you want filler and contrivances to force things to pass, you kind of have to accept that. It creates a big problem in solving a problem when you don't even know the end goal, nor how close you are to getting there, not to mention resistance on the creator side that takes the shaming to mean that even if it was the only sexist thing put out, it would still get crapped on because people are much quicker to jump on things that fail than look at the bigger picture about how much passes.

 

[Abomination]

Surprised how completely Bob missed the point here. The test is a tool to determine the quantity of female characters, not the quality. No one ever claimed differently, so not really sure what the point here is supposed to be.

Honestly, all I've seen is people claiming the test claims differently; mostly people who are trying to set up a nice strawman to knock down. The test was, is, and will remain a good test of the industry, though, when looking at how many (or rather few) movies in total manage to pass.

Isn't that a tautology though? It's pointless on an individual level but is a good test for seeing how many of the whole pass itself?

It's like using a ruler that's only good for measuring the number of things that have been measured by the ruler. It's pointless.

 

[Jimalcoatl]

Human made non-scientific tests rarely tell the whole story. They serve as useful tools for gathering general information but can frequently break down at the individual level. That isn't to say that they are useless and should be completely disregarded, but that they should not be taken as the final word on anything. The Bechdel test and the Mako Mori test can be used as indicators of whether or not the piece makes an attempt to be at least somewhat egalitarian but that is all. A work with strong female characters can fail both tests and still have strong, fully realized and interesting female characters. For example the show Vikings has two strong female characters (Lagertha and Siggy) who would completely fail the Mako Mori test and were it not for the final episode of the first season would also have failed the Bechdel test. If I were to have been simply told that Vikings failed both tests I might have given it a pass as I'm more and more interested in watching shows/movies and playing games with engaging female characters to the point that I generally don't bother with media that doesn't have them.

 

[Alterego-X]

Is that so? The army is male dominated because men are better at fighting. .. oh just a sec, there are people with pitchforks and torches outside my window brb

Don't worry, they are just sissy feminists, bad at fighting, so I bet you can take them with hands tied to your back, bro.

 

[zvate]

The Bechdel Test is a good metric of a certain type. It does not guarantee a good movie but if a film can have dozens of viable characters and not manage two female ones who can interact with-out referencing a man; THAT IS A PROBLEM! and the movie suffers because of it. There are actually more women on the planet than men so when a film can't manage more then one, even if it is a strong female presence, that film should be criticized until everyone gets the message. It can still be a good movie but that failing is something worth noting.




Also what the heck is it with everyone and Mako Mori? I recently saw the movie over the new year and it wasn't a matter of her being strong or weak... The woman got like 15 minutes of airtime and however much nuance she tried to inject into the one note role of monster butt-kicking there just wasn't enough to work with for me to actually pretend there was anything special or particularly well rounded with the actual character. Movie-bob seems to think a strong female character can be somehow judged by body count: it cant.

 

[SKBPinkie]

Repeat a joke often enough, and it becomes fact.

Which is also why memes are mostly dumb.

 

[C.S.Strowbridge]

The Bechdel test should be combined with the Mako Mori test. Pacific Rim might have one strong female character, but only one. It falls for the Smurfette Principle trope. (Men are the standard and women are the exceptions.) Yes, it is better than having no female characters, or females characters that are only there to support the male protagonist, but it is still flawed.

 

[Piorn]

Waaaaait, Alien doesn't count because the Alien is a metaphor for rape i.e. assault, forced insemination, unwanted pregnancy, horrible birth etc., and thus it counts as male. *flies away*

But seriously, good episode. Crying sexism at everything doesn't solve anything.

 

[Darth_Payn]

Wait, wait, wait: People take the Bechdel Test SERIOUSLY?! I t was meant to be satirical in the first place!
Oh, what am I saying, this the Internet: where satire and irony come to die.

As for Swedish movie theaters showing individual movies' Bechdel ratings, I'd like to hear from an actual Swedish person about that.

 

[Furrama]

But The Croods was a terrible movie, why are you putting the "main" girl in the good list? Because she can punch good? We have how many female characters in the movie and they still can't talk about anything other than a guy? And they sold the movie like it was Brave in the stoneage, but it turned out to be all about _the dad_ and _the new young man_ and _the dad_ trying to stay relevant.

Sorry, no, just no. That one actively makes me angry.

Also Tauriel, while I was okay with her being there, adds nothing to the movie other than a checked box. Also a love triangle that I don't understand. I appreciate the gesture, but, like Legolas in this case, she doesn't really need to be there in the narrative. If you have to have Legolas and you wanted a lady elf, then fine! Great! I was expecting her to be a guard captain or maybe one of a few women that helped Legolas on his hunt for the dwarves, (if that must be there). Hey, one of the main dwarves could be a secret woman, (with a beard and all), and nobody would know until she finally says a line in movie 3. And then kicks butt in the battle! Would you care if one of the non talking dwarves was a lady? I wouldn't. Maybe if we actually saw Lobelia Sackville-Baggins instead of just cutting her out of the movie?