The Big Picture: Blecch, Dull Tests

[Shjade]

Oh sweet mother of god.

Bob....I disagreed with you from time to time. Sometimes, I wholeheartedly agreed.

Now I can't emphasize it enough:

T-H-A-N-K Y-O-U!

This and the rest of this post bring up basically everything I was going to say, which is great since I'm tired and about to pass out and now I don't have to write it, so cool, thanks, Headbiter.

Seriously, it's gotten to the point where I start feeling a headache form when people start having "serious" discussions about a movie's Bechdel score. Just. Gah.

 

[Eamar]

Why mention, defend or explain it at all?

I usually don't, but when articles like the one that popped up on here recently start throwing around terms like "the Bechdel Test for sexism" it draws a lot of wrath from people who mistake it for part of some big "feminist agenda" and they start making assumptions about what people like me think. That's when I step in to try to defend my position and try to set the record straight/put people's minds at rest, not to defend the test itself.

Here's the thing people(as in masses and groups, not individuals) hate about feminists: They don't like getting told what to think.

proceeds to tell me that I'm doing feminism wrong and tell me what to do

Ironic, much?

And stop saying "we" as in feminists or some subgroup of feminists. Think for yourself and don't limit your character, convictions and values to what others think of feminism. People don't care that you're a feminist, they care about the people in their immediate vicinity.

Cheers, anonymous person on the internet. You completely missed what I was saying, plus "stop saying..." implies that I regularly do what you accuse me of. Not the case. And anyway, had it occurred to you that perhaps I care that I'm a feminist? I'm not going to stop calling myself a feminist any more than I'm going to stop calling myself a gamer, or a Tolkien fan or any number of other things that reflect some of my interests and/or beliefs.

Actually, I'm very much anti the "feminism as some kind of monolith" perspective. You'll usually hear me talking about "my feminism" or "my interpretation of feminism." The "we" in my comment wasn't referring to feminists, it was referring to a few people on these forums (some of whom may or may not have been feminists) who tried to explain what the test was when people started raging against it on the assumption that it was some feminist censorship tool.

 

[mecegirl]

So not seeing why Tendo couldn't have been a lady.
http://tarteauxfraises.tumblr.com/post/56818631713

Spoiler

But it is kinda getting past the point that it shouldn't be odd for movies to pass this test. Not all movies have to pass it, but considering that women are half of the population it shouldn't be that hard. TV shows pass it all the time. Even TV shows about predominantly male careers(like cop dramas) pass it all the time and no one blinks. No one considers it odd that say Bones has more than one female forensic scientist. And it isn't odd when they talk to each about the cases. What's holding movies up?

 

[K12]

I personally think Bob missed the best criticism about this test.

Would it not almost certainly fail any story that has any number of female protagonists if it also has a main male antagonist?

No, the film would pass as long as at least one of their conversations wasn't about him (even if it wasn't important to the plot).

I also think that this video was criticising the view of the Bechdel test as an objective, definitive "is this film sexist?" test which films pass or fail. A criticism of this view held by supporters and detractors of the test.

The test can tell us something interesting but is very broad strokes and shallow as a test of an individual film. It's best used as a test of the film industry as a whole and not of individual films, e.g. what percentage of major blockbusters pass or fail in the last decade compared to the 70s. As always when you're talking about social issues like sexism, racism etc. it's an issue in society overall and not about individual cases.

 

[Abomination]

Isn't that a tautology though? It's pointless on an individual level but is a good test for seeing how many of the whole pass itself?

It's like using a ruler that's only good for measuring the number of things that have been measured by the ruler. It's pointless.

It's really not a complicated concept here. You can have good movies that don't pass, you can have lousy movies that do; that's not in debate in the slightest.

So it's a terribly flawed system that has many false positives and false negatives. Unreliable and prone to missing the spirit of its own conception... yet somehow it's being considered a "good measure" of something? Sorry, but that's just flat out hogswash. When you measure something with an unreliable ruler the more and more things you measure with it the less accurate and useful that data becomes.

But the fact that there's so many movies that fail it highlights a huge problem in the movie industry. Seriously, this is bare-minimum "recognizing that females are actually people" stuff here.

Oh come on. Everyone fucking believes women are people. Don't start throwing that hogswash around.

Thought experiment: reverse the test. A movie that has to have at least two men that talk to eachother about something other than a woman. You could probably count recent movies that fail it on one hand, and I suspect I'm being generous.

That doesn't make the test valuable. Art reflects society, and in society there are a lot of male dominated fields with very high danger and risk that make for very interesting films... so naturally there are going to be more movies that have more males and sometimes even exclusively males.

The test is pointless, inaccurate and a poor measure of -anything- beyond itself.

 

[carnex]

So not seeing why Tendo couldn't have been a lady.
http://tarteauxfraises.tumblr.com/post/56818631713

Spoiler

Any character in Pacific Rim, other than Hanibal Chau, could have been female character with next to no changes. Incidentally Hanibal Chau is the only character that really suits this movie 100%. I would not like any changes done to that character and I don't know any actress taht can pull off Ron Perlman. Heck, I know maybe 2 other male actors I would like to see in that role.

But that is not the issue with this movie or this episode of "The Big Picture"

 

[JamesBr]

feminism? why not equalism

It's pronounced "egalitarianism".

 

[Ravison]

Movie Bob has an impressive proclivity for saying something true and positive in the worst possible way.

 

[Ashley Blalock]

On the bright side both tests provide a good reason to never watch a Michael Bay film.

 

[Frosty Ned]

This is a really good point and I'm glad Bob pointed it out, but I do think there is one issue that he didn't quite hit in the Bechdel rating's favor: Many movies with a good female character stories still disturbingly lack in female representation. More often than not, a movie will have a predominantly male cast, even if there is one break out female character in it. That's not to say that all movies need equal casting of both genders, but when it almost always goes one way (especially when you get into big budget movies) that inequality is important. Passing the Bechdel test doesn't mean a movie ISN'T sexist, but failing it does indicate a probable skew.

Again, I do like that BOB points out that the Bechdel test is good for looking at the movie industry as a whole and that's true. It doesn't point out all movies with a sexist attitude and it doesn't give credit to movies with a notable/admirable female character. Even so, it should not be ignored that it does say something about movies that are supposedly feminist... many of them are still pretty heavy with men.

It shouldn't be a test to determine if you see a movie, but it is one of many "tests" one can look at to examine the movie industry in a different light. Beacause, believe it or not, there are still many people who aren't convinced that there is that much sexist in media. I know, because it wasn't too long ago that I thought the only real prejudices were against me as a white male American.

 

[cefm]

It's an observation on trends and patterns that is ONLY useful in the aggregate, and completely worthless/pointless when applied to individual cases.

Much like Body Mass Index (BMI). But that's also similarly abused in the hands of uninformed/uninterested commenters.

 

[SnakeTrousers]

... enlistment was restricted to men until fairly recently (and still is in much of the world).

Because they make better killers.

The point you seem to be getting at (with this and the rest of your earlier post) is that sexism, by and large, only exists because it is in fact correct. I wonder, do you apply this philosophy to all questions of social justice or just those involving women?

In either case, I don't think there's much for us to talk about.

 

[Stabby Joe]

Despite the almost bipolar spectrum of opinions we share Bob, this is deferentially on the agreed list. Considering I'd guess most pornos would probably pass this or worse... like Sex and The City 2...

*shudders*

 

[maninahat]

Most of the net groups organising Bechdel tests haven't actually claimed the test demonstrates a movie's quality, feminist leanings or strong writing. They often specifically state that the test has no relation to those whatsoever. Yes, you would be an idiot to use the Bechdel test as a, well, acid test for movies...but most feminists don't. The people who put the chart together was simply pointing out that, for the first time, movies that passed the Bechdel test outsold those that didn't.

That definitely doesn't indicate a difference in quality or a trend towards feminism in cinema, but I argue it displays a shift in the make up of audience demographics, tastes, and the way movies are marketed. Over the past few years, big movies that try to appeal to female audiences have been more and more financially successful. That may well be the one thing you can thank Twilight for; it proved to producers that it is economically viable to spend big bucks, making movies that aim to interest women. Traditionally, the biggest budget, biggest profit movies have a tendency towards testosterone fuelled, man action, but now we are getting more sci-fi and fantasy movies - the genres traditionally reserved for young males - that put women in the spot light. Those movies are clearly getting a bigger audience share for it.

The Bechdel test is useless for examining the strengths of individual movies - it is more focussed on the broad aspects of movie making...but so are producers and studios, who are also recognising the benefits of acknowledging women as a target audience, which ultimately means providing more female characters, more interesting female stories, and hell, even sticking in more fan service for women.

 

[blackrave]

Bob, thank you very much.
Never could understand why statistics should be used to evaluate how good or bad the movie was.
I love hard cold facts, but even I have to admit that one cannot evaluate piece of media objectively.
I have encountered numerous examples when dissected into pieces I would hate every single part, but together those somehow work (and also opposite situation).
But then again maintaining consistency without objective evaluation methods, is near impossible.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't

 

[Silverspetz]

But The Croods was a terrible movie, why are you putting the "main" girl in the good list? Because she can punch good? We have how many female characters in the movie and they still can't talk about anything other than a guy? And they sold the movie like it was Brave in the stoneage, but it turned out to be all about _the dad_ and _the new young man_ and _the dad_ trying to stay relevant.

Sorry, no, just no. That one actively makes me angry.

Wow, someone certainly missed the point by a mile. Bob's entire argument is that there are plenty of good female characters out there that still fail the test, because the test was never a measure of how good a female character is to begin with. Second, there is a difference between a good movie and a movie that has good characters. Bob never said anything about the Croods being a good movie (although he said in an intermission that it was decent), he said that Eep is a good character. As for why she is a good character, it has nothing to do with "punching good". It is about her being proactive, seeking change, and being allowed to not only act as crazy and "stupid" as the rest of her family but also breaking away from stereotypical design trends for heroins. Those are all good qualities in a character.

 

[Gronk]

Well Bob, you're really beginning to show your true colors here aren't you? I am not impressed. Your examples of "good" movies and "strong female characters" really shows your weakness right there. Because for all the talk of equality you spew out, you are apparently still a GUY at heart. "The godfather", "Terminator 2", "Star wars" and "Pacific rim"? Those are the movies you bring up as shining examples of good movies, good stories and good female characters?

You know how many women I know who find those movies even remotely interesting? NONE! (well, maybe star wars, but that's just for Han Solo) Because they are "GUY MOVIES". See your flaw here? You say the Bechdel test throws out "good" movies and bring up these movies to prove it? FAIL! They are not movies for women and as such, proves why you're wrong and the test is valid more than ever.

Sarah Connor is a male power fantasy with boobs. Princess Leia is a damsel in distress, and that asian chick in Pacific rim? How dare you call her storyline independent of the male characters? The fact that two(!) MALE characters has the power to decice whether to let her get in those robots at all, should be a good hint, no? Or the fact that a MALE character saves the day in the end and finishes the job, while she is sent off in an escape pod? Or the fact that she is the one that FAILS when chasing the rabbit, endangering the whole base?

You call that an independent and well written female character? Jeez, I'm really losing respect for you, man.

 

[Arawn]

I will admit this is the first time I've heard of this test. Even more shocking is the amount of films that indeed fail this test. It's not surprising many of my favorite films flunk as well. Seven, Tropic Thunder, Ferris Bueller's day off, etc. As Bob stated it does bring to light the fact women are under represented in movies, but then fails movies with strong/interesting women because it doesn't meet the test's standard.It's less a test and more of a filter. Can't say it judges a movie good or bad just gives it credit for meeting said requirement.