The Big Picture: Gender Games
- Thread starter MovieBob
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Have you ever been looking at a thing that probably would make sense but didn't make sense no matter how hard you scrutinized it then suddenly a new perspective was presented to you which fit all the pieces together perfectly and suddenly the thing you were trying to make sense made perfect sense and you discovered the meaning of life the universe and everything? This was pretty much that without that last bit about the universe and whatnot. Thank you for that.
Have to agree with the first answer on that one, in the case of Morrigan at least... she is a sex demon (succubus), her looking like a tramp is actually part of the character concept.
The problem comes from all the non-sex demon chick doing the same thing.
Heck, Ivy, one of the most well known T&A character in Soul Caliber, is supposed to be all monastic... from my understanding, she cloister herself after destroying the sword if you beat the game with her... is this really what her look convey?
One of the thing that surprised me was how good of a job Space Marine did of presenting a female officer in it's storyline (And it's not just me: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly)... of all games, a shallow futuristic military male-ego boost porn game (And I'm saying that as a huge W40K fan, just look at my avatar, I actually painted the little guy myself) isn't the one I expected to have a good grasp of female character design!
The problem comes from all the non-sex demon chick doing the same thing.
Heck, Ivy, one of the most well known T&A character in Soul Caliber, is supposed to be all monastic... from my understanding, she cloister herself after destroying the sword if you beat the game with her... is this really what her look convey?
One of the thing that surprised me was how good of a job Space Marine did of presenting a female officer in it's storyline (And it's not just me: http://designislaw.tumblr.com/post/10076180504/warhammer-40-000-space-marine-most-suprisingly)... of all games, a shallow futuristic military male-ego boost porn game (And I'm saying that as a huge W40K fan, just look at my avatar, I actually painted the little guy myself
) isn't the one I expected to have a good grasp of female character design!
IMO, this issue won't change until the gaming landscape, or demographic changes more then it has. Yes, not ALL games are hetrosexual males between the ages of 13-35, but the overwheling majority is... And companies will contiune to market to that demographic. And so long as 13-35 year old hetorsexual males ACT like typical 13-35 year old hetrosexual males, it's going to contuine to work. So either you work on changing how boys/young men think and act...(good luck with that, dispite the fact I firmly belive they SHOULD have more respect for women...) or the demograpic of gamers has to shift to a more balance one...(again, good luck with that...) Either way, i don't see is changing anytime soon. *shrug*
So your saying that the underlying problem is that games are generally made specifically for guys, with no regard for a female audience? I can't say I disagree. I was reading something similar about TV shows and movies the other day. Someone was saying that the prevailing notion was that girls would watch "guy" shows, but guys wouldn't watch "girl" shows. As a result everyone defaults to making movies, shows, whatever with male leads and the like. Its probably even worse with games because producers may assume that there aren't even any girls to sell games to (something patently untrue, but whatever).
Problem
Gamers fight against Feminists because Men are badly portrayed.
Feminists fight against Gamers because Women are badly portrayed.
Designers...badly portray both genders.
Those same designers who re-build, re-write, re-make, overcharge, DRM-enable, squander, flanderise and sequelise every other aspect of game play.
Because their bosses say if they don't...they're fired.
So...
We can stop buying those games!
Except...
The "not-gamers", who buy most of the games, buy the girls with the big pixels.
The "feminists" rail against every portrayal of women in games - but different levels of feminists against different portayals of women.
So designers remove all positive portrayals of women as feminists can't seem to make up their mind, and sell them back to the boys who...let's face it...love to stare at beautiful women.
Why isn't this being done as much to the men? It is. Just in a different way.
(obvious hetero sterotypes are obvious)
Hormone enhanced men like boobs/butts and legs - sometimes personality as well.
Hormone enhanced women like deep, strong men - which is, like Bob says, how they're portrayed - name a wimpy, cowardly male that holds any sort of IP with women.
(I'm assuming LGBT stereotypes work in reverse - but I can't be sure)
So....finally - Feminists and Gamers are the same people - arguing for and against the same things - but are kept in constant stages of fighting by...
not wanting to talk to each other.
Which is why we're Feminists and Gamers in the first place. Otherwise we'd just be making sweet monkey love together.
Any talk of the main audience being hormonal males has already been disproved. It's just they're the EASIEST to get to.
Gamers fight against Feminists because Men are badly portrayed.
Feminists fight against Gamers because Women are badly portrayed.
Designers...badly portray both genders.
Those same designers who re-build, re-write, re-make, overcharge, DRM-enable, squander, flanderise and sequelise every other aspect of game play.
Because their bosses say if they don't...they're fired.
So...
We can stop buying those games!
Except...
The "not-gamers", who buy most of the games, buy the girls with the big pixels.
The "feminists" rail against every portrayal of women in games - but different levels of feminists against different portayals of women.
So designers remove all positive portrayals of women as feminists can't seem to make up their mind, and sell them back to the boys who...let's face it...love to stare at beautiful women.
Why isn't this being done as much to the men? It is. Just in a different way.
(obvious hetero sterotypes are obvious)
Hormone enhanced men like boobs/butts and legs - sometimes personality as well.
Hormone enhanced women like deep, strong men - which is, like Bob says, how they're portrayed - name a wimpy, cowardly male that holds any sort of IP with women.
(I'm assuming LGBT stereotypes work in reverse - but I can't be sure)
So....finally - Feminists and Gamers are the same people - arguing for and against the same things - but are kept in constant stages of fighting by...
not wanting to talk to each other.
Which is why we're Feminists and Gamers in the first place. Otherwise we'd just be making sweet monkey love together.
Any talk of the main audience being hormonal males has already been disproved. It's just they're the EASIEST to get to.
-waits for everyone to spout flimsy arguments once again because of overt intellectual cowardice-
While I DO despise Bayonetta (finding her to be paper-thin spank material for her creator), I do believe there's nothing wrong with sexualizing a character (though actually dealing with the actual act of sex is something games are WAAAAAAY behind on). However, gaming does need to get away from the overt sexualization of women. There's nothing wrong with a pretty girl or even a sexualized girl, but doing so in a way that's SOLELY for male eye candy is one of the reasons that gaming is thought of as a medium that caters solely to a teenaged male mindset.
While I DO despise Bayonetta (finding her to be paper-thin spank material for her creator), I do believe there's nothing wrong with sexualizing a character (though actually dealing with the actual act of sex is something games are WAAAAAAY behind on). However, gaming does need to get away from the overt sexualization of women. There's nothing wrong with a pretty girl or even a sexualized girl, but doing so in a way that's SOLELY for male eye candy is one of the reasons that gaming is thought of as a medium that caters solely to a teenaged male mindset.
Love the analysis and the episode. My only complaint is that you seemed to break off in the middle with no real resolution. When you said "I'm Bob and that's the big picture" I was vaguely surprised that it had ended. Other than that top notch as always.
I was going to go with the good ol "Men have the macho stereotype in all of their characters to counterbalance it" argument... but that one picture of all the street fighters shows quite a bit more diversity than anything I've seen that involves woman in games. So... I'll settle for...
Hurr... I like boobies...
Hurr... I like boobies...
Hubert South said:
Hell yes he does. Hes like something out of an army recruitment poster. There aren't any abs, or pecs, or oiled muscles. There is a giant suit of (mostly practical) armor and a look of grim determination. I would say the Raynor example proves the rule more than anything else.
As an aside, maybe there are girls who find grim determination sexy. I don't know. But the fact is that they are finding something about his characterization personality attractiveness, which is being communicated visually. Its the difference between Alyx Vance and Sophita.
Yeah, had a good lead up, proving that the author is familiar with the issue, but sorta trailed off.TheCakeisALie87 said:
...
Oh, and in before shitstorm. Draft, custody, suicide, worse in Africa etc
Morgan character as being sexuality is probably her entire point, being a succubus and all, but Cammy, she still has her outfit riding straight up her ass, with her intro pose in SF4 being a straight look at it. TARGET ACQUIRED!NameIsRobertPaulson said:
Lol, fanboys. This mostly applies to anyone under the age of 18. If you discredit someone because of being a fanboy despite making a completely valid point, for shame. There has already been several videos he posted on the subject already though.
So yeah, bad character design for women? I don't even understand why this is still an issue when people have the internet and a simple google search can get any amount of nakedness you could want. This applies for any media that tries to use sex to "enhance" the experience. I just find it pandering.
I think what game developers fail to realize is that they can have female characters who are incredibly hot without showing off their curves all the time.
Like Kat in Halo: Reach, or more simply the female SPARTAN model. It doesn't contain any less armor than the male version does(except the smaller codpiece, for obvious reasons), and yet many gamers could probably still jerk off to it, if they were that kind of person. What I'm trying to say, though, is that it works both ways. I'm sure there are some people out there, possibly women, who find the male SPARTANs attractive, and are similarly enthralled by the shape of their butts. However, no one is angry about this, because no one feels like they're watching some weird space pornography. They're simply enjoying seeing what some would consider idealized human forms in armor that is both functional and badass.
Like Kat in Halo: Reach, or more simply the female SPARTAN model. It doesn't contain any less armor than the male version does(except the smaller codpiece, for obvious reasons), and yet many gamers could probably still jerk off to it, if they were that kind of person. What I'm trying to say, though, is that it works both ways. I'm sure there are some people out there, possibly women, who find the male SPARTANs attractive, and are similarly enthralled by the shape of their butts. However, no one is angry about this, because no one feels like they're watching some weird space pornography. They're simply enjoying seeing what some would consider idealized human forms in armor that is both functional and badass.
Boy, what an episode! This probably gets right to the core of why I watch MovieBob's shows. Granted, I never agree all the time with him, but it feels great when our opinions do align. Or eve better like today, when the opinions are the same, but he makes great points I never had thought of before!
