The Big Picture: Man of Tomorrow

annoyinglizardvoice

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DTWolfwood said:
Andrew Siribohdi said:
Bob, you say that it was wrong for Superman to kill one person and that it will open the door for Superman killing his other enemies.

But the complaints I've heard online is that he killed WAY more people when he had that DBZ fight with Zod at the end of the movie and by not even trying to save them from falling buildings and debris, it made him seem more heartless than just killing Zod.
The collateral damage he causes in the cartoons and comics will have killed people. Can't imagine that wouldn't be the case.

Why not just write it as he felt so bad about killing Zod that subsequently NEVER do it again? Seems like an easy enough out.
I agree, that seems a reasonable enough way round that issue.

Also, in some of the comics, he was willing to use lethal force against enemies of similar power level, he just doesn't think it's his place to do so against humans and monsters that humans could stop. He did kill a group of dimension-hopping world-ending kryptonian nut-jobs in the comics once, and he has tried to kill Brainiac, Darkseid and Doomsday at times in various animated versions (they're still around afterwards because they are just that tough). According to something on TV tropes, the reason he tries not to kill, but doesn't fuss about his allies killing as much as Batman does is based on the fact that he is tough enough and powerful enough to try to find other ways round the problem, but not everyone is.
 

faefrost

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Magog1 said:
canadamus_prime said:
Ken_J said:
canadamus_prime said:
Wait, Superman kills Zod? That's not right. Superman doesn't kill.
actually Zod is consistently superman's first/only kill in pretty much every medium he shows up in.
Huh? what? I don't remember Superman ever killing Zod. Again don't read the comics so...
MAybe this needs to be spammed till people READ THE GOD DAMN THing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Superman_Phantom_Zone_execution.jpg

It's kinda funny when peoples biggest issue is "but my nerd sense tells me they ruined super man."

well sorry it would seem your just not nerdy enough to know what your talking about ^ ~.
I figured somebody would bring up John Byrnes classic hard hitting Superman #22 from 1988. And yes that is basically where they get parts of this story from. Yes Superman does for the first time violate his personal beliefs and kill Zod. A purely evil being bent on complete destruction of our world. But here are the differences. Firstly the build up. Before this story they spent over 2 years across several cominc titles establishing Superman. Establishing his character and morals, and establishing that this was something that he would not simply do. Superman always finds a way to save people. Superman always finds a way to not kill. 4 regular ongoing series. 2 backstory limited series. All mainly to establish those core character elements. And then when they pulled that trigger it was devastating. Which led to the second part. The fallout from what he did. That act destroyed him. He quit being Superman ung up his cape and wandered off alone into space for 2 years not willing to trust himself around anyone else.

This would have been a fantastic story for a second movie in a trilogy. The first movie should have been establishing the hero. The second should have been this ultimate confrontation and choice. and the third should have been the repercussions of that choice and eventual redemption. Trying to mash it all together just feels wrong.
 

ShadowHamster

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WARNING!!!!! POST FULL OF SPOILERS!!!!! DON'T READ FURTHER WITHOUT SEEING THE MOVIE!!!!!

I saw Man of Steel and REALLY REALLY enjoyed it, I'd call it a masterpiece even!

That said, it hit on something I've always felt about Supes, and am about to take to the bank here. Supes is an idea, not something to necessarily be taken this seriously. There is a ground between serious and laughable, and that ground covers "Ridiculously Stylized" which is where this movie fits in. That said, it does that job spectacularly, and when your hero's most telling attribute is his iconic nature(I mean, what else makes superman interesting? NOTHING! THAT'S WHAT!!!)

I don't agree with Bob's obvious anger at some of the action taken in this Superman movie, because it's all symbolic. No Superman didn't have to fight in a small town where obviously tons of people died when THE STREETS CAUGHT ON FIRE!!!!! But this scene didn't truly represent that to me, because I understood that no people being seen was the artistic telling that these people just didn't die. This gets compounded throughout the movie as the director shows off what is apocalyptic levels of chaos that only Superman can overcome, pushing the Superman Icon in the only place it can move forward.

In fact they REALLY push it, and REALLY show off his creed by having him never attack his classmates despite them attacking him, being alienated but still willing to act as a savior. They pushed the "Space Jesus" them to the max, because that is the heart of this character. He is the incredible humble god who walks like a man.

To that light, Zod's death is easily a one-time thing, and the air of the moment was that superman didn't want to do this thing. Zod didn't just threaten a family of four, he stated that he wouldn't let this fight end without one of them dying, and superman fought and fought for that not to be the case FINALLY killing him when not doing so meant the direct death of others. Something Superman is tired of "seeing", all symbolic.

I can't take Man of Steel as a realistic look at superman no matter how much they try to justify his powers. I look at it as over the top action from the silver age, and that is what I felt I got. I didn't get the "90s comic" vibe that MovieBob got, and I felt the Writing, Production, Direction all understood their source material very well. Yes, they did throw in elements to make a very boring character interesting, giving him humanity(He watched his father die when he could have saved him, because his father insisted on him keeping his secret and he mentions this being a core factor in him randomly saving people from there on out. Furthermore, the element of him getting panic attacks from his powers is not only something I can understand greatly(I get panic attacks, and they basically showed off what super "hyper-vigilance" would look like.) and works in his power set to give him something he had to deal with that was very human. It bridged the gap from unbelievably powerful, to relatable.)

All this said, I do hope that they don't make Superman kill from here on out, and would also bring up Batman in that regard. In "Batman Begins" he kills Ra's Al Ghul and yet Batman in the comics just doesn't kill. He doesn't kill, use guns, or go against the police, these are all things he has developed into his creed because of what he has experienced fighting crime, and it's the distinction that stops him from being a crazy guy who wears a cape, and commits vigilantism. I hope that Superman killing Zod stays with him in future films and makes him wary of ever doing it again, after his reaction to Zod's death it would be easy to use it as the reason he doesn't kill.
 

Coreless

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Just admit it bob, you don't like the movie. Quit beating around the bush trying to act neutral to everything like you somehow really liked it on a technical level or whatever the hell your reasoning is and just say it....you don't like it. We get it bob, your not a big fan of Nolans style of "dark" and "more realistic" super heroes and just stop acting like you are somewhat interested still in the direction they are going and just say it out loud and get it off your chest.

I personally found a ton of heart in this movie, especially the scenes with the father and when he was saving lives without asking for anything in return. I guess all those scenes mean nothing to you and just magically disappear when the fighting starts or something but I remember the movie having tons of heart.

And yes, you are being "THAT" guy.
 

MrMixelPixel

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I didn't really feel Superman killing Zod meant that now Superman is a-o-kay with killing people as long as it saves people. The scene was pretty intense and Superman had to think of something quickly, and he seemed to deeply regret his decision. This could possibly be some new motivation to never kill anyone else, after having done it.
 

Trishbot

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So... Superman kills. And the movie tries to say that that's okay because the villain put a lot of people's lives at risk...


So, who's looking forward to the "Injustice" movie Warner Bros. is apparently trying to make?
 

Drauger

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You know I liked the movie a lot and the killing thingie? I tought it was a great way to end it ( a shame we won't see more of zod ..) , it kind of reminded me o this...






When this happened I tought " well I know she is the only one from the so called trinity with enough balls to do this" and actually made me start reading wonder woman vol 3 ( which I loved btw)....

On topic: Well I don't think this will make supes a pscyho to kill every enemy, I think they are profiling it more like a trauma? and this could actually explain the big reason why from now on superman won't kill.

I'm a Huge batman fan , that being said if warner actually pulls a JLA ala avengers and makes a origin movie ( at least of the trinity right?) I'm eagerly waiting for a Wonder Woman movie........ I just wish.... REALLY WISH they choose her right , I mean big woman, fit... kind of muscular..... right? ..... please?
 

goliath6711

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You know, people love to defend the Zod-killing in Man Of Steel with this:

Well, I'd like to counter that defense with this:
 

Stabby Joe

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I know it's been brought up but the point is valid, Superman has killed someone and he feels guilt thus he WOULDN'T do it again. It won't give him an excuse to kill off any new villain as he knows that leads to a dark place.
 

Drauger

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goliath6711 said:
You know, people love to defend the Zod-killing in Man Of Steel with this:

Well, I'd like to counter that defense with this:
Yeah.............. I'm sorry but any point you wanted to make is invalid because you included a small ville video in your post........XD
 

Darth_Payn

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Good god, that picture of jay Sherman was creepy. I can still see it with my eyes closed!
But back on topic, I understand that Superman doesn't kill all the time, but in Man of Steel, his hand (or arm, more like) was forced by Zod. There was too much death and destruction in Metropolis thanks to Zod, and Supes said no more. And he definitely felt bad about killing, which is the human thing to do, because I saw the movie as Superman's quest to discover humanity, for all its ups and downs. And since I can't be arsed to dig through the other comments here, I'll say this:
Too the guy who posted the quote from Chris Sims' review: I skimmed that thing and all I heard was the siren on the fanboy WHAAAAAAAAAAA-mbulance. I have never before read such bitching and moaning that wasn't a comment in a Comics Alliance article! I do not hold up Sims' every review as the gold standard to compare all other opinions to, since the guy ONLY writes good things about Batman and the Punisher.
Speaking of him, I am going to dare to say something that would probably get me flogged, but here goes: he sucks at his job. Think about it; there are a plethora of villains running around and not dead, so if he were really so great, he'd have blown them all away.
 

Olas

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The only difference I can see between Zod and all the people Supermen allows to die throughout that movie is that with Zod it was through action, not inaction, that Superman ended his life. I guess if Superman had stuck Zod on a train, blown up the tracks, then said "I can't kill you, but I don't have to save you" and flown off, it would have been okay. Right BATMAN?
 

goliath6711

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MrMixelPixel said:
I didn't really feel Superman killing Zod meant that now Superman is a-o-kay with killing people as long as it saves people. The scene was pretty intense and Superman had to think of something quickly, and he seemed to deeply regret his decision. This could possibly be some new motivation to never kill anyone else, after having done it.
See, that's the problem I had with it. There didn't seem to be any point where he tried to weigh any other options in his head. This scenario didn't require a split-second decision (Zod is straining to turn his head toward the family while Superman is straining to turn it away from them, resulting in Zod's heat-vision beam slowly inching towards them for about 30 seconds, which the family could have run away from on their own when you think about it),and yet Superman doesn't even think about trying to find any other solution. And the thing is it's not that he didn't care about finding another solution, it's the only solution that immediately came to his mind when they entered the train station.

Here's what seems to be the thought process going on in Superman's head at this point: Okay, he's not gonna do this. He did say that I'd have to kill him to stop him, but he's just bluffing. He's not gonna really kill any of these people. Not in a million years. Uh oh, it looks like he's gonna fry that family with his heat-vision. But he's not gonna do it. He's gonna shut it off at the last second just to screw with me. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna do it. Wow, that beam's getting pretty close. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna do it. He's not gonna- OH SHIT! HE'S GONNA DO IT! [SNAP]........oh shit.......he really was gonna do it......
 

Ohlookit'sMatty

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Ok there is the one point about the killing of Zod that I'm sure people have mentioned already but here in my two cents // Superman killed him because he knew Zod would never stop, Never // Zod said it himself and Superman would have known that there was no way to talk him down, change his mind or stop him // Nothing on Earth could contain him and Zod was a better fighter than Superman // It was only a matter of time before Zod start to win and do some real damn to earth

Superman had only started to be Superman for a short time during this movie // He had faith, he had conflict within him and you could see that killing Zod was not an easy thing // He didn't have access to anything or anyone to help him with this and for later movies he will learn restraint and how to deal with the big bads

-M
 

Something Amyss

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I'm at least sort of agreeing with Bob in that I don't care whether they do some sort of big overarching deal or not, and that my primary concern is more or less the vision with respect to putting out good movies.

Also, Superman pretty much always finds a way, so that whole "no alternative" thing was crap. Is it cheesey and hokey? Well, yeah, but it's a Superman movie. Even in this version he's a dude who flies around in tighta and a cape in mixed primary colours. If you want dark and gritty, wait for Squirrel Girl.

canadamus_prime said:
Wait, Superman kills Zod? That's not right. Superman doesn't kill.
That's Green Lantern you're thinking of. Superman's the best at what he does, though what he does isn't very nice.

That's why he runs around with a skull on his chest and enough technology to take down the US government.

raven47172 said:
I kept laughing when Bob's Boston accent kept slipping in.
SLIP in? That thing barged in on the back of a zombie T-Rex.