3) Tautology is tautology? 'American' isn't an ethnicity (well, Native American is but I'm talking about the rest of us who inhabit the country). 'French' however, is an ethnicity. Is somebody who passes a test and gets a piece of paper really as 'French' as someone whose family has lived in France since back before the Roman Empire? If so, then being 'French' is rather meaningless, isn't it?Sean951 said:snip...ReiverCorrupter said:snip...Sean951 said:But the current immigration problems are very much the issue of those alive today. I brought up the past because you claimed that Europe helped all it's foreign colonies.
3) As far as immigration issues go... America and Europe are in two completely different situations. Europe has countries with long standing cultures where the people have been there for thousands of years. No one has a right to their country just because they're wealthy. America, on the other hand, is #1 FUCKING HUGE and can accommodate a lot more people, and #2 is founded by immigrants (well, except for the Native Americans). If the French say you have to be French to be in France, then more power to them. But America is founded on the principle of:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
So yeah, two different situations entirely.
4) Would Africa be better off if we stayed out of it? Do you think that American black people are better off now even though they started off as slaves? I don't think Africa would have had the industrial revolution on its own, it just wasn't heading that way. I'm not saying that justifies slavery, but it does seem to suggest that slavery did have some good consequences as well. I think if you asked most black people today if they could go back in a time machine and stop slavery, but if they did they would come back in an Africa untouched by European influence most of them would resoundingly respond: "FUCK THAT SHIT, I LIKE RUNNING WATER!"
5) I'm going to go out on a limb here and people might call me racist, but I'm going to say that race is no longer the primary issue. Sure, it might keep some people from getting the jobs that they deserve, but I think the thing that overwhelmingly keeps black people down in America is... POVERTY. Duh. Middle class black people don't have much to worry about. Hopefully they live in an area like San Francisco or New York where they won't be discriminated against.
Poverty begets poverty, and black people started off poor, so now they have to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. I don't think the answer is to be focusing all of our attention on getting more black actors roles, or telling white people how they're privileged. That simply isn't going to accomplish much of anything. The fact of the matter is that we need to increase taxes and improve the education system in poor communities so that people can escape poverty.
3) I really don't see how that matters in the slightest. So what if America is founded as a nation of immigrants and Europe wasn't. Institutionalized racism is still racism and I reserve the right to call it that.
4)Yes, yes it would. Africa produced some amazing empires on it's own, such as the Great Zimbabwe, Ethiopia (which was never colonized), Mali, the Gold Coast, The Fatimid Caliphate, the Almoravid and Almohad caliphates, Egypt, Carthage, etc. Yes, I pulled some of those from ancient times, but the point is they were entirely capable of forming their own kingdoms and, had they not been largely subjugated from 1600s-1900s, they could have pulled of their own form. If nothing else, it would have been done through contact, as even the people of Southern Africa traded with China.
5) Well... I tend to agree on this, Racism still exists and will keep certain people from getting jobs or houses or what have you, but the main thing keeping the poor people poor is the "culture" that you find in the more poverty stricken areas. The "gangster" lifestyle has it's appeal and many of the role models of people who escaped such situations are pro athletes. This isn't to say that poor people can't get out of the ghettos, but it takes a significant amount of work.
I don't buy it. By comparison, being American just means holding that piece of paper. If, say, 100 million Chinese people moved into France, became citizens and then over the course of a couple decades changes the national language to Mandarin and most movies and public media are derived from traditional Chinese culture as well as the architecture, food, and everything else, then I hate to break it to you, but the geographical region of France would cease to be 'France' in any meaningful sense of the term. Are they really an evil bunch of racists for trying to preserve their culture? Why does everyone else in the world somehow have a right to come to their country and claim citizenship if their native population isn't for it?
4) Maybe. Maybe some regions would, but I doubt all regions would. Europe was pretty lucky in stumbling into its technology. Even extremely well organized civilizations like Japan and China with great potentials for scientific discovery and industrial complexes didn't develop the printing press on their own. Sub Saharan Africa has been far less organized than them, so they'd be even less likely. (Sub Saharan Africa doesn't include North Africa, which I openly admit has traditionally been fairly advanced. At one point Alexandria was basically the center of world culture.) There's no way you can claim that it would though. Hegel is full of crap, history isn't teleological: it's a conglomerate of blind forces above all else.
5) I think we're agreed. Part of the problem is that black people were deprived of their original culture when taken to America and the culture that developed has strong self defeating attitudes instilled into it by the pessimism that inevitably arose from their situation. Part of that includes a disdain for education and professional success because it used to be the case that a black person could only get those by 'sucking up to the man' and thus people who did so were seen as traitors. I think Malcolm X had it right when he saw that it would not only take political upheaval in America to uplift black people, but social and cultural upheaval within the black community as well. (And also adequate support of basic needs from the government like health care and education.)