The Big Picture: Skin Deep

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

JDKJ you are surely a troll. I bet you are sat there right now with your gleaming troll face smile, nice and fat from all the feeding that every one has given you this evening?

(a) He did recognise that he benefited - "The fact that I benefited"

(b) He actually went so far in the other direction to what you claim he is claiming... right that is hard to understand. To clarify, you seem to think that he doesn't think he owes any one for the "benefit" when in fact he says that every one owes the "benefits" to every one. He transcends the whole Black & White relationship extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race. - "You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times)"

I do not think I owe anyone for slavery (since I'm not a slaveowner and I never fought to keep slavery legal etc.). However if we're going to start doing this why stop at African slaves? Why not go back to the slaves of ancient times?

It's not that simple. If you're white and American, the long and, arguably, still continuing history of repression and oppression of racial minorities by the white majority better positions you to compete for scare resources and opportunities (e.g., schools, jobs, etc.) than the minorities who have historically been kept from the field of competition.

 

[Nerf Ninja]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Pretty sure I was talking about modern black Americans there, yep just checked, I was. I don't dispute that it was hell for those involved in the actual slavery part.

Do you understand what a "vestige" is? And why is your account of History stopping at the abolition of slavery? The unfair treatment of blacks in American wasn't legally abolished until the 1950s (see Brown v. Board of Education and related cases) and, in some cases, later than that (it was illegal for blacks to marry whites until the 1970s (see Virginia v. Loving) and the school desegregation cases, some of which festered on until the early 1980s)).

You were the one that mentioned about the slaves coming to America not me. I probably should say that I'm English so I'm not really inculcated in the history of America.

I do personally believe that racism in any form is wrong and yes I accept that it's only been recently that you could say it's even possibly on an even keel for all races (Probably not true as such) but as I said at the beginning, my statement wasn't so much that institutional racism no longer exists in America but that MODERN blacks have benefitted from slavery.

Not in any financial sense but rather in a sense that though their "people" have suffered, they themselves individually can achieve a great deal of things that would probably have been denied them had their ancestors not suffered so terribly.

I'm in danger of Godwinning myself here but do you think a German owes a Jew a debt because of the Terrible suffering of the Jewish during the war?

I think it should be acknowledged but it shouldn't be the defining character of those people.

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Pretty sure I was talking about modern black Americans there, yep just checked, I was. I don't dispute that it was hell for those involved in the actual slavery part.

Do you understand what a "vestige" is? And why is your account of History stopping at the abolition of slavery? The unfair treatment of blacks in American wasn't legally abolished until the 1950s (see Brown v. Board of Education and related cases) and, in some cases, later than that (it was illegal for blacks to marry whites until the 1970s (see Virginia v. Loving) and the school desegregation cases, some of which festered on until the early 1980s)).

You were the one that mentioned about the slaves coming to America not me. I probably should say that I'm English so I'm not really inculcated in the history of America.

I do personally believe that racism in any form is wrong and yes I accept that it's only been recently that you could say it's even possibly on an even keel for all races (Probably not true as such) but as I said at the beginning, my statement wasn't so much that institutional racism no longer exists in America but that MODERN blacks have benefitted from slavery.

Not in any financial sense but rather in a sense that though their "people" have suffered, they themselves individually can achieve a great deal of things that would probably have been denied them had their ancestors not suffered so terribly.

I'm in danger of Godwinning myself here but do you think a German owes a Jew a debt because of the Terrible suffering of the Jewish during the war?

I think it should be acknowledged but it shouldn't be the defining character of those people.

The Germans obviously think they do.

Germany, by way of agreement with Israel, has paid $715 million in goods and services to the State of Israel as compensation for taking in survivors of the Holocaust; $110 million to the Claims Conference for programs to finance the relief, rehabilitation, and resettlement of Jewish Holocaust survivors; and direct reparations to selected individuals over a 12-year period amounting to several hundred million dollars and still counting.

 

[blackwlf]

I just thought I'd toss in one other thing: Did anyone else mention the fact that the 'token black guy' is also the Asgardian equivalent of the door man?

 

[SOCIALCONSTRUCT]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

JDKJ you are surely a troll. I bet you are sat there right now with your gleaming troll face smile, nice and fat from all the feeding that every one has given you this evening?

(a) He did recognise that he benefited - "The fact that I benefited"

(b) He actually went so far in the other direction to what you claim he is claiming... right that is hard to understand. To clarify, you seem to think that he doesn't think he owes any one for the "benefit" when in fact he says that every one owes the "benefits" to every one. He transcends the whole Black & White relationship extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race. - "You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times)"

I do not think I owe anyone for slavery (since I'm not a slaveowner and I never fought to keep slavery legal etc.). However if we're going to start doing this why stop at African slaves? Why not go back to the slaves of ancient times?

It's not that simple. If you're white and American, the long and, arguably, still continuing history of repression and oppression of racial minorities by the white majority better positions you to compete for scare resources and opportunities (e.g., schools, jobs, etc.) than the minorities who have historically been kept from the field of competition.

1. Yes but that is different from slavery, yet slavery is still invoked as a debt that all white people share.

2. Also in the past, before my time. That is last millennium's business. Not my responsibility.

 

[le picklez]

Freedom's a new idea. Why is it so important to repay the minorities for their enslavement? Everything preys on something weaker than themselves. There's no excuse for that, but it's also not a reason for this in itself. A reason to cast that black man would be the guy's a great actor, and so forth, not that he's black. Literally saying that it's because he's black and it's fair because we enslaved black people is inflammatory. That in itself breeds hate and further racism in people who disagree with your view, and perhaps in people who share your view...

TL;DR: "Because he's black" is never a reason for anything.

 

[Davroth]

The reason why I'm not happy with casting a black actor as a Norse God is that it makes no sense to me. Why is there only one? Why didn't the Vikings portrayed him as black? For that matter, what's up with Thor's Asian friend?

Was that seriously the only role in the entire movie that could be played by a black actor?

 

[blackwlf]

The reason why I'm not happy with casting a black actor as a Norse God is that it makes no sense to me. Why is there only one? Why didn't the Vikings portrayed him as black? For that matter, what's up with Thor's Asian friend?

Was that seriously the only role in the entire movie that could be played by a black actor?

When you consider that they're actually alien beings who were worshiped by the Norse AS gods, there is the possibility that, since the Norse were white, they chose to depict their gods as white? Maybe the Asgardians were also worshiped by other societies under different names, who put their own ethnic spin on it?

When you consider how much of the currently living religions has been borrowed from older beliefs with new spins put on them, it's not hard to believe that such changes could have been made. Maybe there are other black Asgardians, we just don't see them in the movie. *shrugs*

And yeah, I kinda wondered who the Asian guy was too.

 

[Nerf Ninja]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt? You're benefiting at the expense of others.

And modern blacks haven't benefitted from that history of slavery?

By and large and as a group in the United States, no, they haven't. They've suffered and continue to suffer from those vestiges.

Apart from the fact that they're even in the United states in the first place, with a chance to make something of themselves?

You're kidding, right? I've never read the history where the West Africans lined up and fought each other for a berth on a slave ship headed to the New World. As I recall, they ended up here kicking and screaming.

Pretty sure I was talking about modern black Americans there, yep just checked, I was. I don't dispute that it was hell for those involved in the actual slavery part.

Do you understand what a "vestige" is? And why is your account of History stopping at the abolition of slavery? The unfair treatment of blacks in American wasn't legally abolished until the 1950s (see Brown v. Board of Education and related cases) and, in some cases, later than that (it was illegal for blacks to marry whites until the 1970s (see Virginia v. Loving) and the school desegregation cases, some of which festered on until the early 1980s)).

You were the one that mentioned about the slaves coming to America not me. I probably should say that I'm English so I'm not really inculcated in the history of America.

I do personally believe that racism in any form is wrong and yes I accept that it's only been recently that you could say it's even possibly on an even keel for all races (Probably not true as such) but as I said at the beginning, my statement wasn't so much that institutional racism no longer exists in America but that MODERN blacks have benefitted from slavery.

Not in any financial sense but rather in a sense that though their "people" have suffered, they themselves individually can achieve a great deal of things that would probably have been denied them had their ancestors not suffered so terribly.

I'm in danger of Godwinning myself here but do you think a German owes a Jew a debt because of the Terrible suffering of the Jewish during the war?

I think it should be acknowledged but it shouldn't be the defining character of those people.

The Germans obviously think they do.

Germany, by way of agreement with Israel, has paid $715 million in goods and services to the State of Israel as compensation for taking in survivors of the Holocaust; $110 million to the Claims Conference for programs to finance the relief, rehabilitation, and resettlement of Jewish Holocaust survivors; and direct reparations to selected individuals over a 12-year period amounting to several hundred million dollars and still counting.

So if America just decided one day to give all descendants of slavery or racial abuse in the past a few hundred million, that would be enough for you?

You're obviously much more well informed on this than I could hope to be, you probably had a better education than I did, mine was atrocious.

I will have to leave it here I'm afraid, as I have to be up early for work tomorrow and it's getting late here. I applaud your knowledge and hope for the best possible future for you.

I genuinely hope you didn't think I was attacking you or your beliefs. It's a sorry state of affairs that modern culture benefits from the miseries of the past, the best we can hope for is to acknowledge them but work to the future without forgetting their lessons.

 

[Nate Corran]

My only disagreement with some of what is said here is that not just black people were slaves in history (gasp from some of you).
In fact the word "slave" comes from the root Slav, for the Slavs, present day middle europeans, who were defeated and taken as slaves by the Norse peoples (See what i did there? full circle). Every race and people have been slaves at some point or another and mostly when those places had been defeated in war, in which case it was almost expected. So, while yes we took Africans as slaves in America, many other cultures took many other races as slaves as well, in which case all of this is conditional.
*breathes deep*
Besides that, this was a really good episode I agreed with for the most part (Besides what is stated above.

 

[Fappy]

While I don't take issue with it, I can understand why some hardcore fans do... but then, they take issue with any and all changes made against the source material.

 

[iblis666]

Skin Deep

Sometimes embracing a double standard is the right thing to do.

Watch Video

really pulling the slavery card as a justification for all minorities to play what are usually considered white acting rolls is a bit lazy. Yes slavery happened in the united states and it was bad, but only a small minority of white people in the united states today even have an ancestor that owned slaves. To carry on as if all white people owe all minorities for things that they never did and more than likely their ancestors never did is not only unfair to white people but a great disservice to black people since it tells them that they are a broken people and that they cant stand up on their own.

I would have much rather you used other reasoning for justifying the casting of a black man in what is traditionally a white roll such as its fiction and as such just about anything could be changed and still make sense. For instance both the norse gods and superman are aliens and as such could be portrayed by any race or for that matter could be green and it wouldnt change the story(though superman would need some sort of disguise while kent). Hell a black frier tuck all that unbelievable he could have been taken as a boy to England to help the church or monistary that he was attached to.

 

[Nautical Honors Society]

I've not seen the movie and actually never read an American comic book (Like many Europeans I was raised on Franco-Belgian comics), but isn't it a bit weird to have a Norse God portrayed by a black man?
Would u cast a European or African for the role of a Hindu god?

I agree with Bob, that those people, who act like hundreds of years of slavery, segregation and discrimination never happened, are idiots, but I can see why comic book nerds get upset about a change to their beloved source material.

He isn't a norse god. He is a comic book character based on a mythological being. If Marvel gives permission to do non-traditional casting then the filmmakers are allowed to do non-traditional casting.

I don't get why this is a big deal. He is a comic book character, he is ficitional, let him be represented in anyway that those with the rights wants.

 

[JDKJ]

I was born after slavery, Jim Crow, etc and I reject the idea that I owe some sort of historical debt.

If you're white and American, then you benefit from that history of slavery, Jim Crow, etc. Why shouldn't you owe a debt?

Because I didn't do anything. The fact that I benefited is not my fault and I cannot make the benefits go away.

You're benefiting at the expense of others.

You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times).

No, but you can (a) recognize the fact that you have benefited and (b) don't claim that you don't owe that benefit to the burden of others.

JDKJ you are surely a troll. I bet you are sat there right now with your gleaming troll face smile, nice and fat from all the feeding that every one has given you this evening?

(a) He did recognise that he benefited - "The fact that I benefited"

(b) He actually went so far in the other direction to what you claim he is claiming... right that is hard to understand. To clarify, you seem to think that he doesn't think he owes any one for the "benefit" when in fact he says that every one owes the "benefits" to every one. He transcends the whole Black & White relationship extending the "racism and slavery is bad" to a much wider spectrum of social status and race. - "You could argue that all of humanity benefited from slaves (not just African slaves, but any slave going back to ancient times)"

I do not think I owe anyone for slavery (since I'm not a slaveowner and I never fought to keep slavery legal etc.). However if we're going to start doing this why stop at African slaves? Why not go back to the slaves of ancient times?

It's not that simple. If you're white and American, the long and, arguably, still continuing history of repression and oppression of racial minorities by the white majority better positions you to compete for scare resources and opportunities (e.g., schools, jobs, etc.) than the minorities who have historically been kept from the field of competition.

1. Yes but that is different from slavery, yet slavery is still invoked as a debt that all white people share.

2. Also in the past, before my time. That is last millennium's business. Not my responsibility.

No need to repeat yourself. I long ago understood your position on the matter and had stopped responding to you.

 

[Nomanslander]

Is it ok that I, a British person, find the casting of a nordic god as black a bit daft because I am without all that slave owning history guilt? (Although I am sure Idris is awesome in Thor as he is a great actor. I saw his BBC series Luther and he kicked ass, you should all go watch it now)

Well, I guess that's just the bullshit you and everyone there, actually all over the world. Has to deal with since the majority of popular movies made comes from Hollywood, CA, USA.

 

[moosek]

"Even a black Superman..." well there is Steel...

Why the hell would that matter? Superman is from space. He's not human, he's a strikingly humanoid alien which laser eyes and the ability to fly. His skin color could be purple and it wouldn't make a difference based on his origin story. Now a black Batman, that would turn some heads.

 

[Nautical Honors Society]

The NORSE gods are exactly that, fucking Norse. They're the depiction of the archetypal European.

But he isn't a Norse god. He is a comic book character. He is one fictional being based on another ficitional being.

Sure if this was a history channel special then the actor in the recreation should be caucasion, but this is a comic book movie and this guy is not supposed to be an actual representation of a norse god.

Thor is not a representation of Norse mthyology, it is a comic series based upon the mythology, so the characters can be cast however Marvel studios/the director chooses to cast them.

 

[Giest4life]

Nietzsche said FU to the "realists" and so now I say so, too: FU.
Not correcting a wrong using the justification that it's not a "perfect world" and that it isn't "realistic" is retarded.

 

[Atmos Duality]

So if America just decided one day to give all descendants of slavery or racial abuse in the past a few hundred million, that would be enough for you?

Just following the topic; but debts should be held to the perpetrators, not the kin of said perpetrators (assuming said kin are not perpetrators themselves, obviously).

The presence of a debt indicates blame (or there would be no grounds for justified compensation), yes, but who? Blaming the great-great-grandson of a slave driver for crimes s/he didn't commit makes about as much sense as blaming the son (or brother) of a bank robber who was killed fleeing the scene.

There are some who would seek any excuse to use history as a mortgage book, which is no more fair than holding the innocent accountable. Sadly, some cultures take the bait, not realizing the fallacy.

 

[metalmanky306]

i gotta say i totally disagree. (please insert "it's all my opinion" disclaimer...)

feeling sorry for minorities is just as racist as hating them. you're not gonna fix bad things that happened in the past by doing the opposite, you're not gonna fix them at all - they happened. even if the opposite is less harmful, it's just as bigoted. the best thing to do then is, if you ask me, just not to do them, move on. don't get me wrong, it shouldn't be forgotten, by any means, i just think it should simply be treated as past. horrible past, yes, but still past. how can we ever move on if we keep acting this way about it?

i'm not at all against them casting a black man in a white role, not even if it goes against continuity. it's just the fact that they obviously did it for the simple, pointlessly bigoted reason that they thought there weren't enough black people there.

i agree this is an imperfect world, and there are many things we can't change. but pointless bias is something we can change. so why don't we?