I think the real paradox is that Peter Parker, comic's first nerd superhero seems to have had more girlfriends (attractive popular ones, at that) in high school and college than most men have had in their entire lives.
The Big Picture: The Amazing Spider-Man - The Gwen Stacy Paradox
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
Small sidenote here. The Spectacular Spider-Man television series featured Gwen Stacy as a major character throughout it's run. Not only did it manage to make Gwen an interesting character in her own right, but it also played a bit of a subtextual cat and mouse with it's comic reading fans regarding the fact that all Gwen is known for in every other incarnation is dying. That's saying nothing about how well written the rest of the show is, or how many storylines they manage to keep moving at any given time. It's a plate spinning act that is truly a wonder to behold. Seriously, if you want a Spider-Man fix that is actually genuinely good, that show is where you need to look.
I don't know about this one Bob. Do you really think general audiences care about Spider-man lore?
I think if she dies, her death will resonate a lot more, not because they give a web-swinging fuck about "Gwen Stacey", but because they worship celebrities, and they love Emma Stone. Seriously, in these movies they could have called Peter Edward and Gwen Bella and it wouldn't have mattered at all.
I think if she dies, her death will resonate a lot more, not because they give a web-swinging fuck about "Gwen Stacey", but because they worship celebrities, and they love Emma Stone. Seriously, in these movies they could have called Peter Edward and Gwen Bella and it wouldn't have mattered at all.
Don't even read this.
It doesn't end up as revenge, it doesn't even trail fully into any serious emotional "I CAN'T TRUST THE WORLD CRICRICRI!" bullshit, he mourns, he moves on, the mask is put back and it isn't for the sake of revenge... its because Spiderman is awesome.
It really worked for me.
It really worked for me.
For some reason I've come to enjoy Bob's ongoing nerd-rage over the Amazing Spider-Man movies. Not because I think he's right; the first movie was a notable improvement on Raimi's disastrous Spider-Man 3, and for as many points as ASM missed, Raimi's series missed just as many and had horrifically bad casting on top of that.
Mostly I think it's just an entertaining window into someone's personal blind spots.
Mostly I think it's just an entertaining window into someone's personal blind spots.
If the creative staff don't want to bring them back/don't care enough to bring them back. And again, being female, and having no powers are two pretty good indicators your not coming back.Andrew Siribohdi said:
As for ret-conning... lets look at Lian Harper, the four year old daughter of DC supehero Arsenal, who's death for pure shock value was widely derided, and with the news of the New 52 making the story that killed her having not happened in the New 52 gave hope that her death would be retconned... instead her whole existence was retconned.
The only story I have about Gwen Stacy relates back to when the first Sam Raimi movie was in theaters, I was working at a movie store at the time, and a kid about seven, I think, came in and started talking about how big of a Spider Man nerd he was, so I just blurted, "Okay, who was Spider Man's first girlfriend?" 'Mary Jane!' "Nope." 'Yup!' "Mary is Peter's Current girlfriend, but she wasn't his first. His first was Gwen Stacy," which I'm only now aware is also wrong. Whee!
in Ultimate Spider-Man Gwen Stacy dies, gets cloned and then she becames Carnage... Bob are you sooo sure they are going to use only the traditional Spidey lore? many aspects of TAMS 1 and 2 are more related to the Ultimate Universe althought if that doesn't make a good history/movie that's a different issue
Ah, yes, the "New 52", the series that retconned Starfire into a, for lack of a better description, slut.Windknight said:
For fucks sake, DC...
But on to permadeath; it's really a problem that stems from the fact that when you try and kill off a major character permanently, fans will riot. So that means that people like Batman, Captain America, Superman, Jean Grey; they're all off the table. Can't be touched.
That leaves supporting characters. But here, we have the problem of Running the Asylum, when the fans of characters that were killed off get creative power, and decide to "correct" the "mistake" of killing them. This process has repeated so many times that the entire community surrounding comics in general have become jaded.
"Oh, no, DudeBro got shot, stabbed, burned, drowned in acid, nuked 15 times and then thrown into the sun by Doctor D-Bag. This will set back his engagement to ChickGirl by a whole week it'll take for him to recover from those injuries. *yawn*"
Character deaths mean nothing these days because they get retconned so often. It's kind of sad when I'm more invested in this *story:
than in wheter or not Peter Parker will save his, by this point, antediluvian aunt from dying.
*I will keep linking this video until everyone has seen it, because it is the most epic Vlog I've seen in years!
Well...
But, who am I kidding? Bob will hate it, no doubt.
Yeah, she dies in TASM2. And, yeah, she dies as a result of Peter's attempt to save her life.
I, like every other comic fan in the audience, knew it was coming. But, for me at least, it still worked. It was sudden, it was brutal, and Garfield's performance that followed was just the final, bitter cherry on the top of the melancholic ice cream.
But what made it work even more for me was what followed (to a degree... could do with fewer stupid kids in costumes, thanks). Instead of having Peter go dark and twisted and swear revenge, they actually show him mourning her... y'know, like a real person would. The loss affects him so much he actually gives up being Spidey altogether until some kind words from May and a listen to Gwen's graduation day speech gets him back out on the street in the spandex.
That's why that moment worked for me. Peter's not going back out to fight crime to avenge Gwen Stacy, he's going back out there to honour her.
I, like every other comic fan in the audience, knew it was coming. But, for me at least, it still worked. It was sudden, it was brutal, and Garfield's performance that followed was just the final, bitter cherry on the top of the melancholic ice cream.
But what made it work even more for me was what followed (to a degree... could do with fewer stupid kids in costumes, thanks). Instead of having Peter go dark and twisted and swear revenge, they actually show him mourning her... y'know, like a real person would. The loss affects him so much he actually gives up being Spidey altogether until some kind words from May and a listen to Gwen's graduation day speech gets him back out on the street in the spandex.
That's why that moment worked for me. Peter's not going back out to fight crime to avenge Gwen Stacy, he's going back out there to honour her.
But, who am I kidding? Bob will hate it, no doubt.
Especially that shot of Peter's webbing stretching out a "mini-hand" toward Gwen as she falls
"He kills her will his dick, in her eye socket." Ah, the Spoony Bard, always the best story telling.Mangod said:
I have to say I enjoyed Garfield's spiderman a lot more than the Maguire version, which (while really well acted) was way too mopey and fragile, with none of the confident sark that Spidey is known for and Garfield is able to pull off without seeming like a prick.Kmadden2004 said:
However, I also have no doubt Bob will hate it, this preview of his thoughts already betray an awful lot of bias towards hating the movie however it comes out (and while I enjoyed the movie; it's best watched with no prior knowledge or expectations, it has it's flaws, and won't be enough to change the mind of someone who already has their heart set against it.)
Still, part of me is looking forward to the ultimate ragefest that will inevitably fall upon us when he actually reviews it - how Gwen constantly getting in harms way was the most contrived thing ever, how the use of the Green Goblin as sequel bait heralds everything wrong with modern studio greed, how it was the worst ever advertising lies that the Rhino is only in it for a few seconds, etc.
I get a weird kick out of reading hyperbolic rage threads.
I just hope he tops his statement from the last Amazing Spiderman review where he took time to emphasis that the crane sequence was the dumbest scene he'd ever seen in movie history ever EVER. That was awesomely unfair.
I get a weird kick out of reading hyperbolic rage threads.
I just hope he tops his statement from the last Amazing Spiderman review where he took time to emphasis that the crane sequence was the dumbest scene he'd ever seen in movie history ever EVER. That was awesomely unfair.
Something I've heard no one mention about AS1 that really stuck in my craw was his relationship with aunt may. it basically amounted to screaming matches and him being a massive Ahole to her over the course of the film. say what you want about aunt may it's kinda hard to like a super hero who screams at little old ladies. it really put me off him and I may or may not see this second one because that on top of everything else just didn't gel with me.
to be fair i'm not a huge fan of peter parker anyway, I LOVED superior Spiderman and i'm sorry they ended the run even though everyone knew it was going to happen soon. but I keep hearing people say they want spiderman in the mcu avengers and I keep asking them "why?" I get it from a fan perspective it's cool to see spidey and iron man together on screen but spider-man is the perpetual underdog of the marvel universe and when you have a thunder god on your team it's hard to sell the underdog angle. he's no less heroic infact at times he's much more heroic because even when every last hero on earth has fallen spider-man will stand and fight. but as much as I like that about him he's still kind of not very interesting to me. if you are a massive spider-man fan and you like AS then I'm glad I want the spider-man movie fans of spider-man will love unabashedly. but for me, this aint doing it, the snarky dbag version of skater spidey doesn't work for me.
the gwen thing is kind of yeah her only reason for existing, but the way she dies is also important. goblin gets the blame for killing her which he did kinda, but it was spiderman trying to save her, looping her ankle and snapping her neck that makes it so gutwrenching in the comics. the fact that in a very real way HE killed her himself ads gravity to it in a unique manner. if she just gets stabbed of killed by goby straight up I think that is going to be lot less interesting.
to be fair i'm not a huge fan of peter parker anyway, I LOVED superior Spiderman and i'm sorry they ended the run even though everyone knew it was going to happen soon. but I keep hearing people say they want spiderman in the mcu avengers and I keep asking them "why?" I get it from a fan perspective it's cool to see spidey and iron man together on screen but spider-man is the perpetual underdog of the marvel universe and when you have a thunder god on your team it's hard to sell the underdog angle. he's no less heroic infact at times he's much more heroic because even when every last hero on earth has fallen spider-man will stand and fight. but as much as I like that about him he's still kind of not very interesting to me. if you are a massive spider-man fan and you like AS then I'm glad I want the spider-man movie fans of spider-man will love unabashedly. but for me, this aint doing it, the snarky dbag version of skater spidey doesn't work for me.
the gwen thing is kind of yeah her only reason for existing, but the way she dies is also important. goblin gets the blame for killing her which he did kinda, but it was spiderman trying to save her, looping her ankle and snapping her neck that makes it so gutwrenching in the comics. the fact that in a very real way HE killed her himself ads gravity to it in a unique manner. if she just gets stabbed of killed by goby straight up I think that is going to be lot less interesting.
You hit on an interesting parallel here - from where I sit, Marvel knew how to handle the "major twist everyone knows" dilemma by still featuring the Winter Soldier reveal (a friend of mine was actually surprised, but I assume because she's not a comic junkie) but keeping it brief and not overwhelming the main plot, instead focusing on a different twist that was more attuned to the unique chronology of the "cinematic universe" and still changed things in a meaningful way.bdcjacko said:
If Sony does go through with this as the "main event" with zero irony or awareness, Spiderman as a franchise is absolutely in the wrong hands and I fear it's going to be a very long time before it's under the control of people who actually give a damn.