The Big Picture: The Fall of Kevin Smith

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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If I might respond by borrowing another Kevin Smith cliché and overanalysing a Star Wars reference, the problem I think both with Anakin and Smith is that people assumed way too much of him. The guy made entertaining fun movies. There was no specific destiny that he would become good, or achieve cinema verite, or that he would usher in a new era of peace. Similarly, the idea that Anakin would bring balance to the Force was technically true, but there were a lot of things that were assumed into it. That Anakin would be the good guy in the whole thing. That he would be the hero. And that was dumb. But it works because people behave that way. And people did behave that way. They read into Smith far more than they should have, and were disappointed most for the things he didn't do that he never actually said he would.

I love the "Askewniverse" or whatever it's called. I love those movies far more than I ever should have. Even "The Bad Ones." But when he stopped making them, he sort of fell off my radar. Not because I'm mad at Jersey Girl, but because he stopped making entertaining movies I could laugh at over and over. But this is the danger of declaring the "new guard" and putting all your hopes into someone.

I hope the end point of this is that the backlash against Smith is not so much his doing, but the doing of the Gen Xers who held him up on their shoulders. Except I suspect the "Chosen One" quote is probably not going in that direction.

But then, I was never invested enough in him to care about his podcasts and stuff, so maybe there's something else I'm missing.

piscian said:
*sigh* time for another "things bob doesn't like" series. Bob I'm 32, I play mtg, I know what Leftover crack is and I've seen the Ewoks movies. I like Kevin Smith just fine. This hate you have a guy who made movies that didn't always fit what you wanted is yours alone. I thought Red State was awesome and I liked his other movies for the most part. I like his TV show.

You sometimes come off as the woody allen high art fanboy critics you so despise. Looking forward to your third act back pedal on this one.
I don't think it's just him. There seems to be an army of people like him out there on the greater web. That may not translate to the Escapist quite so well, but this is true of a lot of cases.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not one of them. I've never been of the opinion that Kevin Smith was great, nor have I hated him. His movies (to a point) were fun and made me and my friends laugh and I still enjoy watching them to this day. Then he started to do stuff I didn't care about and he fell off my radar, mostly. That's about it. I don't love or hate him, I'm not holding grudges or carrying torches, I just like to laugh at offbeat movies.

But Bob certainly isn't the only gen Xer with an issue with Kevin Smith.

Granted, I guess I have to wait until next time to see specifically what his arguments are, but I doubt they're too out of step with a large group of 90s kids.
 

bobdole1979

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he was the chosen one?? Serioulsy? what is wrong with you people he is just a guy who got lucky and made some movies.

If anything you should do a video on why Geek culuture feels the need to make random people their messiahs. None of them asked to be your chosen one you decided it
 

Something Amyss

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grumpymooselion said:
Hipster? Really? The language alone tells me how out of touch with the generation you're talking about here, and the roots from which Smith himself came. It's painted all over this. You have these ideas of things so colored by the now, that if you ever had sight on that period in time, or that generation, you've lost it. Wholly. Completely.
You do understand that hipster was actually a word at the time and his use of the term is appropriate to the culture he was describing, right? It's sort of like you heard the word "hipster" and tuned out.
 

Weresquirrel

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I loved Clerks and Dogma, and the Clerks animated series, but other than that I haven't seen many of his other films. I saw Jay and Silent bob Strike back, and wasn't too impressed. And I did see Mallrats, but it was a while ago and didn't leave much of an impression on me.
 

TripleDaddy

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grumpymooselion said:
Hipster? Really? The language alone tells me how out of touch with the generation you're talking about here, and the roots from which Smith himself came. It's painted all over this. You have these ideas of things so colored by the now, that if you ever had sight on that period in time, or that generation, you've lost it. Wholly. Completely.

Kevin Smith is a decent director, and, while I'm not going to pretend to be a fan of all his efforts, there is no betrayal here, there is no fall. Smith's done good work, and he had a lot of interesting things to say about quite a few subjects. You're allowed your opinion, that's not even in question, but you're off base here. You understand about as much about my generation as I know about rice farming, I might have a general idea of the process, but it's through seeing other people do it or talk about it, even by reading about.

That's how your viewpoint of generation X sounds. Like it's something you've heard second hand.
I was thinking nearly the same thing. MovieBob was what, twelve when Clerks came out?
 

Rabidkitten

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I have never liked Kevin Smith films, and I have never understood their allure. That said, I have a raging hard on for all things Quentin Tarantino. I think its that Smith's films are actually not very good. They are more about the cultural references than anything else. People like clerks because what it is, and not because its a good movie. And the more that became apparent with each subsequent film, the more everyone began to realize all of Smith's films were actually bad. The same is kind of true for Rodriguez.
 

Tireseas_v1legacy

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While it's probably a bit much to call Clerks the Gen X's Easy Rider, there is something to be said about its rather unique place in cinema history.
 

Pigsy

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See this is the problem with having the Game Overthinker crossover a while back. I can't take Bob's critique all that seriously when his own stuff (outside of TBP and ETTM) isn't particularly well shot or acted (or for that matter particularly clever). Still enjoy the show just wish I'd missed those episodes.
 

Devin Barker

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Was a Smith fan, Still am. Bob is entitled to his opinion, I get that... but hes wrong and I hate him (jk). This is where the hate mail starts rolling in... I like smith a hell of a lot more than Tarantino. I have actually never seen a Tarantino movie I liked (except Four Rooms but you cant really call that HIS movie) Smith is like Apatow to me, his movies dont always hit their mark but they are good at capturing a slice of everyday life, and I find that very refreshing... Tarantino seems to just surf TV/Movie tropes and mash them into overblown versions of themselves (Ive had people argue that that is the point... but that doesnt mean I have to like it) I guess I dont have much of a point other than "I disagree" and the "90 indi goldenboy" Tarantino I dont care for at all... OPINIONS!
 

SecondPrize

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Rabidkitten said:
I have never liked Kevin Smith films, and I have never understood their allure. That said, I have a raging hard on for all things Quentin Tarantino. I think its that Smith's films are actually not very good. They are more about the cultural references than anything else. People like clerks because what it is, and not because its a good movie. And the more that became apparent with each subsequent film, the more everyone began to realize all of Smith's films were actually bad. The same is kind of true for Rodriguez.
They're different directors, with different films. I'm not a film critic but, while I can see Tarantino and Rodriguez's work being grouped together, adding Smith to the mix seems forced.
 

Soulrender95

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TripleDaddy said:
I was thinking nearly the same thing. MovieBob was what, twelve when Clerks came out?
I can't find his actual Date of birth, I'm sure someone can but well clerks came out in 1994, being a Gen X'er, the youngest bob could have been at the time is 20 (Gen X being 1960 to early 1980's) if he was 12 he'd be a Gen Y or Millennial.

OT:
good to see he's tackling the issue and not just leaving it unsaid, I personally don't dislike Kevin Smith but became less fond of him because he often uses his films to relentlessly bash something he doesn't personally care for, instead of making a poignant quick joke and moving on.
 

CelestDaer

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I grew up loving Clerks. I spent a majority of my employed life in retail, and now, at 32, I rewatched Clerks about a month ago, and it just has the exact opposite outcome for me. Randall is one of the assholiest asshole clerks I've seen, and I've worked with a couple who did it just to piss off the customers. How he still has a job is beyond me. But that's beside the point. The movie didn't catch me any longer.
 

youji itami

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Soulrender95 said:
TripleDaddy said:
I was thinking nearly the same thing. MovieBob was what, twelve when Clerks came out?
I can't find his actual Date of birth, I'm sure someone can but well clerks came out in 1994, being a Gen X'er, the youngest bob could have been at the time is 20 (Gen X being 1960 to early 1980's) if he was 12 he'd be a Gen Y or Millennial.
Movie Bob was born in the early 80's he's 30 something, so very late Gen X.
 

Hunter Grant

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The problem isn't that you don't like his films or you expected more of him, its the tone and language you use when describing the PERSON. You come across like you would spit when you mention the man's name and look even if you hate his films he has never come across to me as someone pretentious or thinking his shit does not stink. He has taken on the chin, he is a big supporter of Gay rights he has a great dialogue with his fans, and a knack for forging his own way in film/podcasting. People are drawn to his personality as a guy we could hang with because, for me at least, I feel like I wouldn't be judged it would be a safe place.

The way you keep trotting him out as a whipping boy for Gen X without provocation talking about him as if he is a bad person for not living up to your expectations still makes you look petty. To get mad at KS because when he was asked about Batman V. Superman is dumb, he didn't ask to be asked. So whatever comes of this series of mini-reviews of his old films, it doesn't matter you can't justify to me your behaviour.

I like you, but this is not about what you think about his film making ability, this is the fact that as far as I'm concerned you've been a dick to a guy who has done nothing to you.
 

Uriel_Hayabusa

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Hunter Grant said:
The problem isn't that you don't like his films or you expected more of him, its the tone and language you use when describing the PERSON. You come across like you would spit when you mention the man's name and look even if you hate his films he has never come across to me as someone pretentious or thinking his shit does not stink. He has taken on the chin, he is a big supporter of Gay rights he has a great dialogue with his fans, and a knack for forging his own way in film/podcasting. People are drawn to his personality as a guy we could hang with because, for me at least, I feel like I wouldn't be judged it would be a safe place.

The way you keep trotting him out as a whipping boy for Gen X without provocation talking about him as if he is a bad person for not living up to your expectations still makes you look petty. To get mad at KS because when he was asked about Batman V. Superman is dumb, he didn't ask to be asked. So whatever comes of this series of mini-reviews of his old films, it doesn't matter you can't justify to me your behaviour.

I like you, but this is not about what you think about his film making ability, this is the fact that as far as I'm concerned you've been a dick to a guy who has done nothing to you.
Very well said. In last week's episode Bob rose to Michael Bay's defense in an attempt to be the voice of reason, but it all rings hollow when you consider his frequent potshots at people/movies/things he doesn't like or his self-pitying review on The Amazing Spider-Man 2 and how "the movie broke him", among other things.
 

jdarksun

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Does Kevin Smith really warrant such controversy? I've enjoyed more of his films than I haven't.
 

impocalyptic

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I am simultaneously relieved and disappointed that we are not getting ten episodes to pick apart Kevin Smith. Still, this is pretty fascinating. I still believe that Clerks is legitimately hilarious, but I do agree that the scenarios are contrived. The dive bar punk rock analogy is perfect. What it lacks in skill is made up for in enthusiasm and speaking as a 22 year old guy who's only previous exposure to Smith was through the amazingly awful Red State and suprisingly uninteresting Zack & Miri Make A Porno, that was more than enough for me.
 

Darth Sea Bass

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Damn i thought i was Gen X. I kind of had the loose thought it related to kids who hit their 20's in the 90's.

That said I still have time for the guy, sure his films have gone downhill gradually but he seems like a guy i could hang out with.