The Big Picture: The Fall of Kevin Smith

Ticklefist

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Kevin Smith movies were a photograph of us and how we perceived the world in our early adulthoods. It's an embarrassing thing to look at in hindsight but we weren't wrong about those movies, they were great. That is until Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. That was the point it all kinda became silly and stopped trying to be relevant. I would say Dogma but that would be dishonest. Everyone loved Dogma at the time. It's only now that we think it sucks.

And before you do it Bob, don't do it, Bob. Mallrats was the best one!
 

Pescetarian

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Jul 6, 2010
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You didn't call it "Revenge of the Smith"?

DUUUUUUUDE.

Also, I think I gave Dogma way too much credit because it's the closest we've ever gotten to a "Good Omens" movie.
 

The Hungry Samurai

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Apr 1, 2004
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There are two types of Kevin Smith Movies. Good Kevin Smith movies, and the movies Kevin Smith makes to pay for good Kevin Smith movies. Cop Out, Mallrats, Jay and Sient Bob Strike Back, Jersey Girl.... are not good Kevin Smith movies.
 

Darknacht

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Aardvaarkman said:
PhiMed said:
Harvard defines Generation X as people born between 1965 and 1984, so the youngest he could've been when it came out is 10.
Yeah, well the Harvard Center is out of line in that one - very few other researchers use that definition. And the Harvard Center chose those dates to artificially force the "generations" into equal 20-year spans. So, BS, basically. The majority of researchers appear to use 1981 as a cut-off.
There really just needs to be an in between generation, people(at least those I've known) born in the late 70s and early 80s rarely share much of a cultural connection to those born in the late 80s and 90s but they also did not have the same cultural experience as those born in the 60s and early 70s. They seem to typically refer to themselves as Gen X because they feel they have more connection to Gen X culture than to millennial culture.
 

Norithics

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So, let me get this straight.
A bunch of unimpressive everydudes saw another unimpressive everydude and then were disappointed he turned out to be less than their hopes and dreams. Somehow.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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ticklefist said:
Kevin Smith movies were a photograph of us and how we perceived the world in our early adulthoods. It's an embarrassing thing to look at in hindsight but we weren't wrong about those movies, they were great. That is until Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. That was the point it all kinda became silly and stopped trying to be relevant. I would say Dogma but that would be dishonest. Everyone loved Dogma at the time. It's only now that we think it sucks.

And before you do it Bob, don't do it, Bob. Mallrats was the best one!
I don't think Bob would ever simplify it to this point, but I think what it comes down to is that Kevin Smith seemed like a misguided Social Justice Warrior, like Bob himself, and might have even inspired him to some extent when he was younger. Then it turned out that really wasn't who Kevin Smith ever really was, and it became more pronounced as time went on as he continued,and had more pull to really say some of the things he wanted to. Given that he ties a lot of his works together (sometimes subtly) and re-uses people while referencing characters from previous movies you might not expect to be related, it can be argued that once he became a disappointment to those who projected onto his message it changed the entire lens through which his entire body of work can be viewed. Sort of like a less awesome version of Steven King's "Dark Tower" series and how it can change your perspective on pretty much everything he's written.

To put things into perspective, it seems people really seemed to turn on Kevin Smith when he did "Red State", which a lot of people figured was going to be "alright, let's see one of our favorite film making SJWs tear into the right wing", and then found out that while he did indeed do that, he didn't exactly do what they wanted, and produced a fairly balanced piece, balanced to the point of being sort of offensive to certain people, especially seeing as the bad guys who represents the problem and/or focus of the story arguably changes several times during the entire movie which is kind of the point of the entire thing. While it inevitably went to the expected place, it wasn't quite the whole "Kevin Smith does a grindhouse horror movie where a bunch of Red State rejects wind up having the tables turned on them and die horribly" that a lot of people expected.

At the same time, as some people have pointed out 20-something slackers was kind of entertaining, 30 and 40 year old slackers was just kind of sad, and it can be argued that this might have been intentional. Something that can disturbs people who worship his movies and the worldview they propose, and might have been doing so and living in a similar fashion ever since he first started making them.

Even Jay and Silent Bob have retroactively gotten some criticism, Kevin Smith is on record as I remember as pretty much supporting pot, but at the same time he doesn't seem to promote it to the extent some others seem to think. After all viewed in a certain way which is probably intentional, he's arguably mocking "lifestyle stoners" more than he's worshipping them. The sheer silliness involved in say "Bluntman and Chronic" and the way it plays out can, and has been, argued as having the exact opposite message of what it at first seems to be. One could argue that the champion of the slacker-stoner, who seemed to be giving you a role-model, isn't anti-pot, but doesn't actually have much respect for those who are habitual/lifestyle users.

Now I could be wrong there, and I don't read Bob's blog, but given what a lot of other people similar to Bob seem to say, and the circles he seems to travel in, I'd imagine this is pretty much the gist of it. Although I suppose his Star Wars reference does say pretty much the same thing, as Kevin Smith was "supposed to be the guy who championed us and our world view" and like Anakin who was prophecied as the opposite of what Obi-Wan thought from the very beginning, it turned out he never was what you thought he was. You were pretty much worshipping a guy as one of your voices, who really had about zero respect for you, and as a result you actually became the punch line of the joke.

That said I think Kevin Smith is a decent film maker, but really I think he'd do better to move on to other styles of movies. It was nice to watch him gradually grow through his work, but really I think he should consider trying to move more into pure fantasy territory for a while as opposed to doing movies that are primarily social commentary with perhaps some metaphorical fantasy thrown in. Get away from that a bit, and give people some time to chill out, and other things to think about, and I think it will all be good. Right now I think half the problem is people who once thought "Jay and Silent Bob" were role models and positive societal commentary of a sort, would kind of like to feed them both into a wood chipper feet first upon realizing the truth.
 

Verlander

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I'll reserve judgement until after I've seen the other episode(s), but if you're essentially accusing him of selling out to the mainstream, you really shouldn't have compared him to Tarantino...
 

ZippyDSMlee

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I'm I the only one who sees this as more Bobs disappointment with him rather than anything else?
 

Canadamus Prime

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I'd never even heard of Kevin Smith until his movie "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back" came out and even then I never really cared about him. Still don't and still haven't seen any of his movies.
 

anonymity88

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Aardvaarkman said:
PhiMed said:
Harvard defines Generation X as people born between 1965 and 1984, so the youngest he could've been when it came out is 10.
Yeah, well the Harvard Center is out of line in that one - very few other researchers use that definition. And the Harvard Center chose those dates to artificially force the "generations" into equal 20-year spans. So, BS, basically. The majority of researchers appear to use 1981 as a cut-off.
I always felt I was gen-x but my year of birth was 1988. Might be more to do with my spiritual connection to grunge music though?

OT:

I loved Clerks when I first watched it at age 17, probably because I'd just gotten my first job which was a low paid sole crushing retail gig. Not really sure why watching it at that point resonated with me...
 

KiramidHead

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I'll echo (heh) what a lot of other people are saying, in that I feel that this is more about Bob's disappointment than it is about Kevin Smith himself. As one of the younger generation that Bob refers to, I've mainly seen him as a guy who makes very good comedies, for the most part. I like his stuff because it makes me laugh, not because of any of the "bigger things" that Bob perhaps feels he should have accomplished. Hell, I was two when Clerks first came out, so I definitely missed the boat on any of that hoopla.

And one other thing- what is with the quality of the movie clips? Did Bob rip them from twenty-year-old VHS tapes that he found in a landfill?
 

Baresark

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I have always respected Kevin Smith. He had a clear trajectory planned for his life and did well for himself. Sure, he stumbled along the way. But he has written and directed movies, he has starred in movies, he has written comics, he has a successful television show. I'm not mad at the guy because I he wrote movies I didn't like or changed in such a way he doesn't fit what I perceive he should have been or should be. All of this, "I hate Kevin Smith stuff" just seems stupid to me. But, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Edit: All I have to say is: Bob, you clearly have an issue with guy. You should stop paying him so much mind. In the words of Dante from Clerks, "shit or get off the pot".
 

El Luck

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ok so you make a review where you take a few shots at Kevin Smith even though on the Tuesday you released a video explaining why people shouldn't do that with Michael Bay and now we're here? I'm caught up? ok then.

and now for the next few weeks because people called you out on this your gonna explain why you dislike a director because when you saw his first film you jumped to the wrong conclusion and rather than admit that you were wrong its his fault? Because that's the feeling I'm getting from this video at the moment and honestly I think I'll give these next videos a miss, last weeks big picture put a bad taste in my mouth and the next few weeks doesn't look like its gonna get any better.
 

Nimcha

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It's funny cause I like pretty much all of his movies (especially Dogma), except for Chasing Amy. There is no movie I loathe more than that one. Just thinking about it makes me angry again. Just... argh.
 

Wandrecanada

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As someone who worked at a convenience store next door to a video rental place this was something of a hazing ritual for every employee. For many of us teens with low income jobs in the 90s Clerks spoke directly to our demo. It wasn't a rose tinted Secret of My Success kind of story, it was cynical. It's the kind of thing we saw a lot of when the boomer generation was still preaching the capitalist way.

For those who didn't get the film or why it was good (it's not really that good) it was mainly because it pretty much spoke directly to one specific generation who were just coming into personal wealth and have now themselves begun to dominate the current culture's voice. Ya had to be there I guess.
 

DudeistBelieve

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Sep 9, 2010
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Clerks is a great movie for what it is a, a low budget indy flick that was some guys first movie.

His best has to be Clerks 2 or Chasing Amy.

But, and this is what I'm surprised no one here is talking about, I don't really like Kevin for his movies. They're okay. I'm a fan of Kevin Smith because of Smodcast and his other shows. Because thats what Kevin is really good at, talking and making people laugh. He's made the ScanBC twitter account the funniest thing in the world.

Also, I just really like the guy as a human being. He's so genuine. and people go "Oh the guy imploded" he did not. He became a stoner and (hell, listen to the Smodcast. From Episode 1 to now) he eventually has grown into this living version of the The Big Lebowski's dude character. He's taking it easy, and creatively he's making the movies he wants to make.

He's planning one film called Moose-Jaws. It's a remake of JAWS, but set in Canada, and with a Moose instead of a shark. Now based on that premise alone, I'm sorry, you either want to see that or you don't. I'm in the camp that thinks it's hilarious and totally will see. Just like I'll see Tusk and practically anything else he makes based off the podcast's conversations.

And if you don't like Kevin Smith's work? Hey, great! No one cares, he's not writing for you. He's writing for the audience that already loves him and enjoys what he does, and he can make a flick for 4 million and turn a profit. He doesn't need to convince anyone to go see his movies, which is why the critics are so upset that he doesn't need to give them free screenings anymore.

FYI, he was right: Giving a movie like Cop Out a bad review is stupid. It's not schindler's list, it's not making a statement, it's just film thats trying to make you laugh. It's not like it's a secret or not, you could tell just looking at the trailer if you like Tracy Morgan you'd have a good time.

Echoing what other people have said in this thread, maybe it is the old fans fault for thinking Kevin Smith was some sort of cultural icon when he was just a funny geeky dude. Now they're acting like entitled dickheads because he's not the film maker they thought he was. That's not Kevin Smith's problem. He owes you all nothing.

DrMcCoy said:
Who the fuck is Kevin Smith? o_O
Go to Smodcast.com. Listen. You're welcome.