The Big Picture: You Are Wrong About Sucker Punch, Part One

Triaed

Not Gone Gonzo
Jan 16, 2009
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I quite enjoyed Sucker Punch. I did not get all the topics that Bob is bringing up in his analysis. I do not always agree with Bob, but I trust his opinion, so that means I will have to watch it again with a brand new perspective. Thanks Bob!
Can't wait for the next episode
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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I don't really disagree with any of the points made, but I still think it was a boring, and uninteresting film as well as being quite poorly made as well.

A film needs more than an interesting idea and a subtext to be good. It has to actually be enjoyable to watch as well.
 

Darknacht

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May 13, 2009
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hentropy said:
And if people are overwhelmingly confused about the purpose or message because the satire was too subtle, then the satire DID NOT DO ITS JOB. That should be film school 101: if you have a message or satire, make it effective and clear, because satire that no one gets isn't really satire at all.
The movie literally yells 'STOP' at one point early on and everything comes to a halt while a character explains to the audience the point of the movie. How much clearer could it be, if people did not get that, then its a problem with the people watching it not the movie.
 

Sutter Cane

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Jun 27, 2010
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SonOfVoorhees said:
Sutter Cane said:
SonOfVoorhees said:
pretty sure Snyder has said in interviews that the title refers to what the movie itself was intended to do to the audience's expectations, so bob's interpretation is probably closer to what Snyder intended
Maybe. I dont know to be honest. But if you are correct then what does that say about Syder? He marketed it a certain way to get those people he wanted to mock in the theatres. Because those people are the target audience, the people he needs so that his movie can make money. I find that hypercritical to be honest.

Also, in the fantasy stuff, the girls chose their outfits because its their fantasy. Which has nothing to do with men. Atleast in the mental home, if men told them to wear skimpy outfits then that would make sense.

Is your name from In The Mouth Of Madness? Now thats a good fun movie. :)
Well from what I understand on big studio pictures the directors don't get to choose how the film is marketed, so there is that. Also yes my name is from in the mouth of madness
 

tmande2nd

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Oct 20, 2010
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Nah it just sucked.

None of its metaphors worked.
Its acting was poor
Its action while flashy was not dramatic
And saying to an audience "YOU SUCK" is not a good thing most times.

Just not a good movie.
 

orangeapples

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Aug 1, 2009
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I always imagined that Baby Doll's dancing was actually the Napoleon Dynamite dance. Both are strangely hypnotic and leave the viewer speechless.
 

Sejborg

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Jun 7, 2010
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As far as I understood the movie all the girls in the brothel were actually Babydoll or more specifically representations of parts of her psyche. So whenever one of them got killed it was just a part of her dying and the girl who escaped was the only part of her that survived the lobotomy =(

They weren?t given names because they were all the same person.[/quote]

I think you are mixing The Ward together with Sucker Punch.
 

shogunblade

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Apr 13, 2009
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I did see Sucker Punch in July for the first time, and while the *satirical* parts of the movie didn't make much sense to me (All the Villians were Cartoons, and the girls with underwritten, which meant I didn't care for anybody throughout the entire movie, which damaged at least 5 stars of a possible full 10 from me), I did spot other things that make the movie better than most.

I read a lot of reviews shortly after, and a lot of people did read incorrectly that the movie was sexist and all that jazz, but I felt the PG-13 rating helped prove that wrong quite well. Instead of showing the sexy parts, we are forced to be entranced the same way the males are entranced (I.e. - We really don't have a choice in the matter, we will look at the perceived sexy-time instead of the real sexy-time), and because of that, the PG-13 rating is leaps and bounds better than the unrated director's cut (I've not seen it, but if any of the dancing can be seen, it damages the integrity of Snyder's argument that these women are sex objects). The problem was that every action scene was nearly the same, and with no real characters, and by proxy, no real stakes, The movie amounts to very pretty visuals with no real substance (Sadly, what a movie nerd (Such as myself) read into the picture by having *very* pretty girls with no names).

However, Zack Snyder is a very smart guy, because he knew nobody would care about their names. He could have given them names like Samantha, or Christy or something, and we wouldn't have cared any other way, but by giving them the somewhat pointless nicknames (Babydoll, Sweet-Pea), I remember them better than I'd have with a more pointless ordinary name (The difference between calling Jeff Goldblum's character in Jurassic Park Ian Malcolm vs. calling him "Jeff Goldblum's character", It's just unique enough to get you to remember it, or calling Chunk or Sloth from The Goonies Jack and Fred for some reason, you wouldn't have remembered those names, you would have called him "The Fat Kid" and "The Freak", respectively, but with the nicknames, they stick in your head better)

Sucker Punch is a movie I WANTED to like, because I like Zack Snyder as a director (DOTD was fun, 300 was awful, Watchmen is in my top 20, This kind of sucked, and I haven't seen Guardians of the Ga'Hoole yet), but when Part 2 (or possibly 3) comes along, I'll definitely continue to listen, I just think that there isn't much to argue for, expecially for this movie.
 

1337mokro

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Dec 24, 2008
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YAY!!! Uncle Bob is going to lecture us!!!

Oh do show us how your opinion is more valid than anyone else's opinion. How you are going to educate the masses on how this movie is actually a work of brilliance and not just a poorly put together attempt at brilliance.

Paul Verhoeven's movie sucked (I still like it) because it took a pro-militaristic book and tried to make it into a brutal satire of war. The source material already was what it was and Verhoeven tried to morph the source material into his own material. He did this by making it into a high action war movie. Point Missed.

Sucker Punch sucked because any point it had was buried under what it was. A panty shot riddled random high octane action scene clip show which had horrible dichotomy between the characters. Men Are All Evil Rapists, all of them including the people in the audience. Women Are All Angelic Delicate Flowers. The "Sucker Punch" that that would entail is kind of non existent when someone sits down to watch it because all his friends told him it sucked. Not to mention in the least why it is wrong to enjoy such entertainment?

The movie never addresses why it is wrong. Is it that we are keeping them locked behind bars of sexuality? No, the movie never makes that point. Because being treated that way is poor treatment of women? No, the movie never makes that point. Maybe it stops female characters from being written with any depth? No that's not it either, but it's a funny bit of irony that the movies own characters lack depth. In the end it is a toothless message of a film using sex to make a comment about how bad it is to use sex.

It tried to be something by being the exact opposite of what it wanted to be. Buried deep down there MIGHT be clever satire. But when the satire is almost impossible to see.... then it's a crappy satire. Satire is an art form. Not everyone can just do because not only does satire have to be hidden, it also has to be very obvious. It is a thin line that our dear director Zack fails to walk and he morphed his satire movie into a boring, messy, in-comprehensive exploitation flick.

It's like giving a kid a lollipop and then coming back to scold him for spoiling his appetite. He was supposed to throw down the lollipop as it was a satirical symbol of kids not eating properly and parents not being responsible.

The funniest thing thing to me though is this. The movie lured in people who wanted to gawk at women. These people, all left saying how bad of a movie it was. That to me just shows that even if you were an adolescent boy who got into this movie just to gawk at hot women. It still failed. That's kind of funny to me. It failed as a satire and it even failed to life up to the low low standards of people that watch things for the fan service.
 

el_kabong

Shark Rodeo Champion
Mar 18, 2010
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mrblakemiller said:
that's like a vegan serving hamburgers to his guests and then retreat back to the kitchen to scorn them.
Now I have this image in my head of a mad-scientist vegan...Cackling in his kitchen and yelling "THE FOOLS!" to those eating at his barbecue. Priceless.

OT: I don't mean for this to sound like trolling...but is this movie really worth a two-parter? I didn't see the movie and, frankly, don't really regret missing it. I feel that it has had no significant cultural impact on either its audience or the industry. Nor do I thing that it was enough of a subcultural phenomenon to warrant a cult status. It was a movie that had a mediocre showing, not really impressing any factions of the diverse audience that it could have appealed to (at least, by the trailers).

Granted, I love over analyzing movies and things, so I'll definitely stay tuned in. It's just not on the usual level of edu-tainment that I've come to appreciate from the series.
 

The Human Torch

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Sep 12, 2010
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Nimzabaat said:
I am enjoying just how many comments there are from those people who just didn't "get it" though. Highly entertaining.
I am honestly not sure how I should take that. Did I amuse you?
 

Kargathia

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Jul 16, 2009
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Moonlight Butterfly said:
I feel like I 'get' this film mostly because I have been in abusive relationships with men and have used my imagination (and games) as a form of escapism. This film could have been taken from inside my head... I have real life parallels for both the step father and the doctor/brothel owner guy, unfortunately.

You are so right about this Bob, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

This film made me cry, I'm not sure how many people it had that effect on.
It appears perspective matters quite a lot on this, as personally I had the sense they were shooting for the whole imagination-as-escapism thing, but horribly failing at it. In my interpretation it should have been Baby Doll's imagination we'd get to see, in which the brothel easily could fit, but the action sequences felt horribly out of place, as they are such obvious male fantasies. That is not to say it can't be the preferred escapism of a woman, but it certainly does need additional background to explain for it.

In my personal opinion the best solution would've been to either make a movie about a girl using multiple levels of fantasies to escape from a wretched reality inside a mental hospital, or make an obvious satire burning the concept of "empowered" sex fantasies to the ground - not both.

All of this, of course, is based on personal interpretation - something that with this clusterfuck of a movie varies wildly.
One thing is for certain though: I have no problem whatsoever with snidely deriding anyone who solely went to watch it because it has "hot chicks in school girl outfits swordfighting".
 

Aiddon_v1legacy

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Nov 19, 2009
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even if this is what Snyder was intending he did such a terrible job of expressing it that it didn't matter what the intent was. Furthermore, a lot of stuff going on in the film just reeked of Snyder trying to have his cake and eat it. He needs to keep the FUCK away from the script side of films; talented on visual directing but AWFUL at writing (kinda like Terrence Malick).
 

Just_A_Glitch

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Dec 10, 2009
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I absolutely loved Sucker Punch. If I remember correctly, it was number three or four on my top ten list of 2011. And so far, I've agreed with everything you've said Bob.

I am man enough to admit that a big draw of the film isn't the most morally upright reasons, but sex appeal has never been enough to sell me on anything alone. The film itself is a visual beauty.

Also, it really reminds me of Emilie Autumn's book (though she doesn't seem too thrilled about the comparisons).
 

Xman490

Doctorate in Danger
May 29, 2010
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"I'm not talking about not LIKING it. I know a lot of people who DID get it and still didn't like it, not so much people not appreciating the QUALITY of the movie as not appreciating its PURPOSE."

That sounds like your very positive review of The Cabin in the Woods. At this point in the video (first minute), I'm guessing that Sucker Punch has that underlying tone of "Yeah, we know you like this a certain way. But seriously, stop demanding it. It gets on our nerves." or something like that.
 

Sejborg

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Jun 7, 2010
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Genuine Evil said:
Sejborg said:
I think you are mixing The Ward together with Sucker Punch.
sorry what?
There is still "the real world" the world you see when Baby Doll is not dancing, and there you still have all the other girls. In The Ward (another movie) I would agree with you.
 

TazTheTerrible

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Feb 20, 2010
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I totally loved Suckerpunch, but I've come to accept I'm one of the few that do. I guess its main failing was that it was too ambitious. There's not really a target audience for this kind of movie. Most feminists will be immediately turned off by the imagery the film uses, while the people who come for the girls in the short skirts aren't very likely to even try to look past its presentation, no matter how transparent it is. On that note:

Darknacht said:
The movie literally yells 'STOP' at one point early on and everything comes to a halt while a character explains to the audience the point of the movie. How much clearer could it be, if people did not get that, then its a problem with the people watching it not the movie.
QFT

The action scenes were definitely its weaker points, though, in my opinion, not for the reasons usually given. The lack of tension isn't a problem to me, these things were supposed to be stylized exaggerations, but they did drag on a bit. Given how trippy this movie was, the one thing I feel it couldn't afford to be was boring. And the action scenes did get to that point, unfortunately.

Still, despite its flaws, it worked on so many levels, I don't really care.

Flawed, yes, but Suckerpunch was still leagues above the samey, forgettable, cookie-cutter trash Hollywood squirts out by the dozens.
 

hentropy

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Feb 25, 2012
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Darknacht said:
hentropy said:
And if people are overwhelmingly confused about the purpose or message because the satire was too subtle, then the satire DID NOT DO ITS JOB. That should be film school 101: if you have a message or satire, make it effective and clear, because satire that no one gets isn't really satire at all.
The movie literally yells 'STOP' at one point early on and everything comes to a halt while a character explains to the audience the point of the movie. How much clearer could it be, if people did not get that, then its a problem with the people watching it not the movie.
Except Bob is spending not one but two videos trying to "explain" it to us all, because apparently people didn't get it enough for him and obviously critics weren't so sure, and those aren't idiots unfamiliar with subtext.

I'm not sure what part of the movie you're referring to precisely, but a satire loses its satirical edge when it becomes indistinguishable from the thing that it's satirizing. For example, Stephen Colbert would not be a satirical comedian if he just recited Bill O'Reilly monologues word-for-word. The movie is trying to say "hey nerds are misogynistic because they like hot women doing super human things, and we're going to make a movie about hot women doing superhuman things but make all the men sexist rapist pigs! Except we'll make all the women completely incompetent in the real world and make them rely on some kind of god-like male being in the fantasy world to get anything done! Ohh, add a dragon to that scene!"

To put it simply, it has no fucking focus. And for a supposed satire, that's fatal, because if you blur the line between you and what you're parodying while adding a lot of other things to muddy up the message, it simply does not work on any intellectual level.

captcha: fishy smell
 

maninahat

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Nov 8, 2007
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I'm pretty sure I "got it", as in I got the attempt to satire audience expectation and the audience itself. Still doesn't change my opinion.

Like Starship Troopers, the movie basically tries to have its cake and eat it. Sucker Punch wants to shout "ha ha, I tricked you, you pig, nerd, mysogynist, pervert!" but still gives the pig, nerd, mysogynist, perverts in the audience exactly what they were after; namely, skimpy fighting babes. That's inexcusable. You can't hide behind the satirical message, pretending its a different movie - they still made a movie about skimpy fighting babes.

Starship Troopers, whilst condemning militarist facism, winds up promoting militarist facism with its depiction of heroic soldiers killing merciless, terrifying monsters. Alright, between the action scenes, there are occasional jabs at the military complex and war propaganda. But they're pushed to the side by the prolongued action scenes; the focus of the film, that most define the movie.

No wonder people came away with the wrong message. The mistake lies in the directors not applying the message directly to the action scenes, instead saving it for the sidelines. That's a mistake in an action movie satire.