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Gigantor

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EDIT: Title changed because I didn't much care for the old one...
Unsure as to whether or not to start a new topic on this, but I don't really like posting two huge chunks of text in the same thread. Seems oddly improper.

In a review of mine for FFXII a respondent asked 'How can I take this review seriously if you're going to 'knock off 8 points from the mark of any game that features a section where the player's character is captured by the law, imprisoned, then makes their escape, happily finding a treasure chest containing all their confiscated possessions.' It was a very good question. He went on to ask 'Or should I take it seriously when you admit to having absolutely no idea what was going on in the plot. It's an RPG. If you don't understand the storyline, is it possible that it's not the writers fault? It's not like the game was a David Lynch movie.' A fair point, too. Now, this post is in no way intended as a dig at the chap who made these comments- indeed, I'm grateful to him for starting me thinking on the topic of 'seriousness' in game reviewing.

What should a review do? At it's most fundamental it should reveal some information about the thing being reviewed. Anything more than that is surely the responsibility and the choice of the reviewer. A serious game review, presumably, supports it's argument by providing scores/marks/stars/thumbs-up or thumbs-down/cow-pats or llama droppings. These marks will not only support the argument but demonstrate, in brief, an overview. But marks are subjective and often self-defeating- Gamespot has recently 'revamped' it's reviews by providing marks out of 10 in 0.5 intervals, and awarding good 'merits' and less good 'demerits' (Strong Multiplayer, Boobies on the Cover Art, May Give You Colon Cancer). Intended (I can only assume) to make the review process clearer, it only really obfuscates. Let us say a really 'good' game is an 8.5 or higher; a 9.0 is great; a 9.5 is brilliant; a 10 could only be perfect, and will therefore require inordinate amounts of caution to award. Cod4 and Assassin's Creed got 9.0. Crysis, though, got 9.5, so it's obviously way better. But Mass Effect only got 8.5- how fucking humiliating! Why even bother releasing the damn thing? These numbers are no use, and the merits and demerits are no better- it's like trying to create a review by slotting together a bunch of pre-fabricated thoughts and opinions, and we expect that to somehow tell us something? The UK version of PCGamer has never awarded a game more than 96%-not Half-Life 2, not Civilization, hell, not even the Horse Armour Mod for Oblivion (solid gold classics, all three). It's really backed itself into a corner, because if it ever awards a game more than 96% then it would have to be categorically, quantifiably, the best game ever. Ever. Either the game is the best game ever or their marking system is somehow flawed. One little percent is all it would take, and then there would be no way to justify that game not sitting pretty at the top of their 'best-of' list from now 'til Judgement Day.

It's easy to bash Gamespot (although, in this post Kane and Lynch world, it's becoming a bit too easy) It's fun too. But it's worth considering what else makes a review 'serious'. A prose style that focuses on the game without getting tangential would be good. I'm not knocking people who do want to write like this, because they provide a valuable and much-needed service for the community. At the same time, I see no reason why all reviews should take themselves seriously. If you're trawling the Escapist forums, looking at reviews by other users, chances are you already know a good deal about the games involved. I've never played Assassin's Creed, but I've read so many reviews and articles on it that, if I had to, I feel I could blag my way through on a conversation about it with some style. So why would the world need another 'serious' review? If I write about, let's say, Holocaust Denial or the bleak future for democracy in Pakistan then, by all means, take me seriously. If I'm writing about something where the biggest problem is that I can't obtain a specific magic spear then, please, take it with the appropriate barrel full of salt.

I suppose I think the ideal review would not need supporting by numbers or ratings to make it's feelings known. EDGE, an excellent magazine from the UK which can only be described as 'cerebral' (notwithstanding the occasional euphemistic connotations of 'cerebral' to mean 'pretentious'), provides a rating out of ten at the end of the review, but it treats it as a necessary evil, a shameful thing kept in a small box, hidden away. Much like my great-grandmother. How often can you accurately summarise a game with a number? Can I really say that the graphics in Mass Effect are a 9, or a 7, or the feeling of sand between one's toes on a beach at sunset? The armour is shiny, yes, and the special effects very special: conversely, the texture pop-in is spectacularly intrusive and the character's teeth look silly. How many marks is the industry standard to be docked for silly teeth? Fucked if I know, better consult the handbook. About the best I can normally say is that I have gut feelings. A gut feeling that I liked FFXII even though some of the more Machiavellian machinations may have escaped my attention. I can see the use of numbers to help collate the information for a site like Metacritic or RottenTomatoes, which in turn provides a valuable general overview of the market. But is it just the job of the reviewer to shoe-horn gut feelings into numbers or merit symbols? It's a fairly bleak mandate if it is. If I enjoy writing something, and other people, God willing, enjoy reading them, can't we all agree to suspend disbelief for a few minutes and look elsewhere for serious reviews?
 

AnGeL.SLayer

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lol I think you need to keep in mind a handful of the population has no sense of humor. You will always get thouse people who just don't get your style and let that get in the way of what your really trying to do. I do believe most people here on the forms are all understanding of this system the whole site has about nonserious/humor filled rants about games. Its the main reason most of us even bother to come here everyday. Besides The Escapist it self sayes it dosen't want normal numerical ratings on games. Its over done and every way worthless to anyone who takes them into consideration. I'm sure you know it but like you said for the humorless readers to take your reviews with a barrel full of salt you should do the same when they come your way with the serious faces in mob form.

^_^
 

Gigantor

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Dec 26, 2007
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It wasn't really a post written on the defensive or anything like that. Well, it was, I guess, but more in defense of slightly more abstract reviews than in defense of my personal honour. It would've been pistols at dawn if my honour were at stake. But I do like discussing and arguing about things (almost as much as I like custard creams) so all opinions are welcome!
 

AnGeL.SLayer

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LOL pistols at dawn? youve never shot a gun remember? Better hope that other guy hasn't aswell. I know what your saying and I was just trying to give you some comfort in the fact that people will be people. I know what its like to have your work critized and have everyone focus on that and forget about the props you should be getting. So barrel of salt my friend. you will always have thouse whod like to stone you to death. If for no other reason than to see you bleed.
 

Gigantor

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Dec 26, 2007
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If I'm going to be bleeding I'm staying weeeeeelll away from any barrels full of salt. But thanks for the support, glad you like my stuff!
 

Sib

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Dec 22, 2007
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sounds like you have a fan gigantor, and do keep putting inane methods of scoring at the bottom of your reviews, i have a good time making insane deductions to make them into percentages :)
 

Gigantor

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I'll do my best, but you seem to have an unerring ability to infer scores from seemingly abstract concepts. In the future I shall be marking by providing a famous piece of poetry and putting it to the theme of a famous TV show: FFXII, for example, receives the 3rd stanza of Keats' 'La Belle Dame Sans Merci':

'I see a lily on thy brow
With anguish moist and fever dew;
And on thy cheek a fading rose
Fast withereth too.'

To the tune of Hollyoaks.
 

wilsonscrazybed

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Dec 16, 2007
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Consider me a fan too Gigantor. I was sketchy on the Cysis review but you've won my heart. Now just don't hurt me! I can't go through another bad relationship.
 

mintfresh

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To be honest, this is the sort of thing I joined this site for, I'm informed enough about games from other sources, and it's often the tangential rambling 'reviews' which tell you things about a game you didn't know, read one or two 'serious' reviews, and you know the basics, the mundane things. It's people like you who tell you of the spears and little anecdotes, that make a much more interesting read.
 

Sib

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Dec 22, 2007
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Gigantor said:
'I see a lily on thy brow
With anguish moist and fever dew;
And on thy cheek a fading rose
Fast withereth too.'

To the tune of Hollyoaks.
cooo, this may take a minute.

the poem is talking about sickness, and death which is a bad thing (duh!) so that lowers the score to say 3-4/10
the tune of hollyoaks sucks donkey balls sooo thats got to lop off a couple more points, unless youre deaf so im going to go with a good old

15%
 

The Rogue Wolf

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There is one key thing to keep in mind that many people seem to keep forgetting:

A REVIEW IS SIMPLY ONE PERSON'S OPINION OF A GAME.

Some of the trouble is, as you've said, reviewers who take themselves far too seriously, acting as if they are handing down edicts from "up on high" as to what games we should and should not like. Another segment of the problem is gamers who read reviews, not to find other peoples' opinions on the game, but to find other people who agree with them. Should they find someone who does NOT agree with them, anger and irrationality ensue, as these people are of the mindset that they are right and all others MUST agree.

Really, there's absolutely no way around this; it's been a part of human discourse for thousands of years. The best thing you can do is simply carry on as you please, keep in mind the thoughts of those who read what you write with a clear view, and shrug off the idiocy.
 

Gigantor

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The Rogue Wolf, whilst I certainly agree with most of your thoughts on this, and I really do think a review is an opinion, and as such can not really be right or wrong (but can certainly interestingly or boringly presented). But, yeah, a lot of people read reviews just to seek confirmation for their own thoughts. Did you see what happened when Gerstmann gave Twilight Princess an 8.8? The forums practically exploded. I've never seen so many angry virgins. It's as if the game was somehow worse with an 8.8 than a 9.4, as though the score changes the quality of the game and not vice-versa.

The problem is that websites like, let's say, Gamespot (I hope their lawyers aren't reading this and getting their nano-suits into Maximum litigious mode) seem to be trying to standardise reviews, with their merits and clear cut +/-0.5 scoring system. I don't read a review on a lot of gaming websites and think 'ah, so this is Mr X's view on the subject', I just get the feeling that Gamespot, cNet, whatever, find it more convenient to be able to put together a review with building blocks, like they're building a Lego Star Destroyer. As much as I hate to sound like a namby-pamby 'oppressed by the Man and his Capitalist machinery' wuss, it's heard to escape the feeling sometimes. Particularly since Gerstmann got his legs broken and 'TRAITOR' branded into his forehead for giving the same score to K&L as every other media outlet in the world did. I'm not saying I'd be able to pick a review by Gerstmann out of a line-up, though. A big website like Gamespot must need a kind of homogeneity in writing styles or it would end up looking like the ramblings of a madman.

Anyway, what was the point of this? Right. Reviews should be someone's opinion, but all too often a corporation will want to make it look like they and they alone can provide some kind of objective truth, and the only people that will end up suffering are the reviewers and the gamers.

(Apologies it's all been so Gerstmann heavy. The fact that he gave pretty much the same score as every other reviewer makes it seem odd that Eidos would single him out as the lone recipient of their ire and wrath. Maybe the guy was just a bit of a dick. I've never met him, I dunno.)

For further speculation on the sacking of Jeff Gerstmann see every post made on the Gamespot forums and every editorial for the last two months...
 

sathie

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Dec 19, 2007
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I still like to have a score so that I know overall what that person thought. Whether it's "industry standard" scoring, or their own personal Furby scale, I don't care, but it's nice to put a score to their thoughts.

It's often hard to tell with reviews whether people actually like the game or not unless there's a final summing up and a score. It makes the reviewer stop and think, too. Many a time I've come to the end of writing a review and thought "overall, did I enjoy this more than the annoyances ruined it for me?". Sometimes that spurs me to go back through and write some more about the good points, or write the bad points in a less "they killed my mum," way.

Even though they're "amatuer" reviews, it's often more reliable to have the views of people who have absolutely nothing to gain from sharing them, than to have them from people who might be shunned if they give a bad review to this year's AAA title. Obviously you have to weed out the tens and the twos, but other than that I trust the views of your average gamer far more than the paid reviewer.
 

John Galt

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The Rogue Wolf said:
There is one key thing to keep in mind that many people seem to keep forgetting:

A REVIEW IS SIMPLY ONE PERSON'S OPINION OF A GAME.
quote]

I agree, arguing with a game reviewer over an arbitrary score is like beating someone up for having a specific opinion of a presidential candidate or novel.

Also, I feel that a game's quality is something too hard to quantify in a */10 number. When I read a game review, I find that the actual words of the reviewer can build a more accurate(or in Yahtzee's case, hilarious) picture of the game. If you are able to establish a workable system for grading games then more power to ya, but I feel that it is too vague and mechanical just giving a game a 'x out of y'.
 

robfoughtrome

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i don't know which side i fall on. whenever i've written reviews i include an overall score, as well as a score for different features such as graphics and gameplay, but include a little summary of a couple of lines (a la IGN). one major problem with the scoring system is that, whilst time changes, the score does not. i know the review does not change either but it is less blunt than an overall score. in many cases for example you can read a review where the writer has given the game 8 out of 10, but had the score not been there and it was up to you guess what score the game would get based on the review itself you may be able to say it warrants anything from a 6.5 to maybe a 9, depending on how serious you took some of the faults to be, or how much certain aspects appealed to you. we only have to look at a couple of the original xbox 360 games to see how weak the score system can be. ratings for perfect dark zero were commonly about 7 or 8, but if that game was released today id be willing to bet it would score little more than 6. but hitting 81 on metacritic, it has the same score as assassin's creed - a game offering superior technological advances, innovative new gameplay, and an engaging storyline.
this does highlight once again though what a review really is - opinion. a good example is the recent mass effect. some people called the texture pop-in and slow-down 'game hampering' whilst i for one barely noticed it and would not hold it against the game.
i guess people just need to stop taking reviews so seriously. i would not do away with the score system though simply because it often spurs me on to read a review. would i have bothered to read the IGN UK review of assassin's creed had i not seen the score of 6.5? probably not.
 

Rykka

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Sib said:
sounds like you have a fan gigantor, and do keep putting inane methods of scoring at the bottom of your reviews, i have a good time making insane deductions to make them into percentages :)
Signed, your Marrowind review was the first I read, and it caused me to track down other treatises of yours. Your editorial style is humorous, and honest without being viciously egotistical.

Elbow rubbing aside, reviews are often an interesting discourse to partake in, particularly if you've already played and cemented your own thoughts on a game before you read them. Honestly it is truly impossible to get a completely neutral review of anything because we will always have our opinions colored by personal tastes and experiences. Always. I mean, thats what it is after all? If you ask a country singer to rate a rap album- even though both are actively experienced in the music community- money is on the country singer dropping a weight on his review. People have different expectations, tastes, appreciations, likes and dislikes.

All I could really suggest, would be to have editorials written by one person who loved a game, and one person who hated it(If both parties exist) so that you get a two sided review that features opinions that might point out aspects that would otherwise be left out. To coin Mr. Gigantor's article again, someone who really disliked Marrowind probably would not have mentioned the blissful ambiance to be found in the game. At the same time, someone who really liked it likely would not have pointed out some of the glaring flaws, despite being a good game. Gigantor commented on both a bit, to be fair, but he had a great deal more space to do it in than most people relying on scoring systems in small, picture crowded magazine pages have. I think however flawed, scoring systems are used as a means to portray all of the details and responses they might not have had the room to relate.

Go go rambling. Sorry, I tend to meander a bit in topic structure.
 

GrowlersAtSea

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Nov 14, 2007
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It is just the opinion of one person, but with big name publications, it's generally viewed as the the opinion of the publication itself, by readers, developers and advertisers. You usually don't see on a box for a game "Stunning" -Charles Onyett, IGN. You usually just see IGN. It's not just games though, on commercials for movies you'll usually see the name of the newspaper or magazine, and if the name of the reviewer is small below it, if it's there at all.

For all intents and purposes, the reviewer is speaking for the publication, and behind them is the reputation and credibility of the publisher. So it might be just one person's opinion, but they're viewed, fairly or not, as the voice of a publication.

There are virtually no game reviewers like Roger Ebert or Joel Segal; reviewers who are well known, and in some ways are bigger than the publications that they write for (I'm sure Roger Ebert has better name recognition than the Chicago-Sun Times). I like reading a review from Roger Ebert of a movie, because the bottom line is that I've read enough of his reviews to understand what he likes and what he doesn't like, compare them to my own tastes and get a good idea of how I'll likely feel about a movie. There are no video game reviewers I "know" this well, I only know a couple reviewers' names.

I'm kind of off on a tangent here though. I would like to say though that I'm of the opinion that the way scoring in video games is done is horribly flawed. The need to quantify is taken to absurd levels with half a dozen categories leading up to average or seemingly arbitrary final scores that often reflect very little. Most reviews are effectively on a 7-10 scale by default (only really abysmal ones sink below that, typically) and when these numbers are rounded trying to figure out what is good and what isn't from a score isn't too easy.

7.5 or 8.0 could be quite good games hampered by not having the latest graphics but are still fun games. Or they could be beautiful games with a great style with fatal game flaws that make them chores to play. The technical aspects can trump the gameplay in many reviews, and the reason why we play games can be lost.

But people would like to see a quantitative value and a pithy end that sums up all aspects of the game. So scores likely aren't going anywhere.