The changing of opinions for Star Wars: How the New Trilogy stack up

[Dalisclock]

Loved Rouge One and Last Jedi. Though I hated the part with the casino and making it pointless in hindsight. Fuck Vice Admiral Holdo! One of the most annoying, unsympathetic characters in SW history. Even with her heroic sacrifice, I almost felt nothing, or felt that moment should have belonged to a better character.

The joke I like to make about Adm Holdo is she's the Peter Principle in action, or even more then that "You know how we said you could be an Flag officer when everyone above you died at the same time? Well....."

 

[ObsidianJones]

... Am I the only one who was screaming to the screen during the last Jedi when the first rebel ship was going down "Freaking turn around before you lose your fuel and take the bastards with you?!"

Like... why not? You're going to die just by the fact that your ship ran out of fuel and you are going to either suffocate or freeze to death... if you weren't shot down by the encroaching First Fleet. You signed up for a situation where you were unlikely to live as it is. You transferred the remaining crew to the rest of the fleet and this is probably your best individual chance to actually strike a blow for the Rebel alliance.

That completely killed the movie. How many ships fell before one of them actually did something for the cause.

Hell, if you were afraid, ou had driods! It killed it for me.

 

[Breakdown]

... Am I the only one who was screaming to the screen during the last Jedi when the first rebel ship was going down "Freaking turn around before you lose your fuel and take the bastards with you?!"

Like... why not? You're going to die just by the fact that your ship ran out of fuel and you are going to either suffocate or freeze to death... if you weren't shot down by the encroaching First Fleet. You signed up for a situation where you were unlikely to live as it is. You transferred the remaining crew to the rest of the fleet and this is probably your best individual chance to actually strike a blow for the Rebel alliance.

That completely killed the movie. How many ships fell before one of them actually did something for the cause.

Hell, if you were afraid, ou had driods! It killed it for me.

The thing that got me is that the rebel ships could have just scattered. They all had fuel for one more hyperspace jump, and the First Order only had one ship capable of tracking them. Each ship jumps to a different star system, the First Order can only follow one of them.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

Last Jedi is the best movie in the new trilogy, though that's probably not saying much. Which isn't to say it isn't still massively flawed, it had some of the worst comic relief in a series well known for having bad comic relief and Laura Dern having to play a character that was obviously only in it for the sake of a subplot that Carrie Fisher was too frail to handle fell pretty flat for me too (I mean, just because she has an unusual hair color and is played by a recognizable character actress doesn't make her anything more than Leia's replacement) but, like... i know I keep saying this but between Rogue One and Last Jedi the series felt like it was going new places and not just repeating itself. Solo was underwhelming and Rise of Skywalker was soulcrushing.

I'm not saying that there aren't some valid reasons to dislike Last Jedi but I can't help but blame the state of Rise of Skywalker on the backlash against it. And I sure as hell would rather have more movies like Last Jedi than movies like Rise of Skywalker.

 

[Kyrian007]

I enjoyed the new trilogy well enough. With the Disney buyout I was expecting it to be a little different, and absolutely understood the characters and stories from the Star Wars EU were NEVER going to be a part of the story going forward... and I was OK with that. I loved some of the EU material, but there was a lot of complete garbage there too. I was happy with TFA. It was a rehash, but at that point it was kind of what the series needed after the crappy prequels. And they hired JJ, that kind of rehash is exactly what he does so it turned out more or less exactly how I figured it would. I liked TLJ too. The new direction it went was pretty much exactly where I thought the series should go after TFA. Again, the sequel series matched my expectations pretty solidly. Rise didn't, but I didn't hate it either. And I never understood where all the "rise was just walking back the changes made in TLJ" derision came from. Yeah, Luke's ghost told Rey she should treat the lightsaber with more respect... TLJ spent its entire run time after Luke tossed the lightsaber away making him realize he was wrong in turning his back on his Jedi heritage. Making his line and attitude in Rise exactly in line with where the character was going at the end of TLJ. Rise just fell short by playing it too safe in where it could have gone with the story. That didn't make it bad, just kind of safe and not great like it could have been.

Mostly I was just happy that the lightsaber duels were back to a more weighty and grand feel like the stage broadsword fighting the original series used and not the twirl and spin uselessly wire-fu flipping around crap they used in the prequels. My only real problem with the new series, they never told us what ever happened to the Rebellion/Republic's greatest hero of all time... Wedge Antillies.

 

[Dalisclock]

The thing that got me is that the rebel ships could have just scattered. They all had fuel for one more hyperspace jump, and the First Order only had one ship capable of tracking them. Each ship jumps to a different star system, the First Order can only follow one of them.

There's so many things about the space chase in TLJ that annoy me but that's one of them. If they're going to suddenly introduce the "We can be tracked through Hyperspace now" thing, then the logical idea would be to, I don't know, flood them with decoys all jumping to hyperspace at once. Have Every Hyperspace capable fighter and ship all jump to a slightly different destination and meet up later. The First order can't follow all of them, probably.

But then again, they'll probably have some super-duper hyperspace tracker that tracks all of them and instantly figures out which ones are the real ones, because the first order can pull new tech out of their ass at a moments notice in the new movies. It's like playing tabletop with a DM who is obsessed with keeping you on the back foot, so he keeps inventing new reasons you can't remotely even the odds in your favor. And maybe that's why I dislike the new movies so much(among other reasons).

Then again, they never explains why those escorting Star Destroyers can't just catch up to the Resisty fleet, flank and murder them at any time. We know Star Destroyers can move damn fast(fast enough to catch the Falcon or a Corellian Corvette, per Ep 4/5) and 2 of them should be more then enough to overwhelm the sole Mon Calamari Cruiser they have. Instead, they just don't because......that would make too much sense?

 

[Trunkage]

There's so many things about the space chase in TLJ that annoy me but that's one of them. If they're going to suddenly introduce the "We can be tracked through Hyperspace now" thing, then the logical idea would be to, I don't know, flood them with decoys all jumping to hyperspace at once. Have Every Hyperspace capable fighter and ship all jump to a slightly different destination and meet up later. The First order can't follow all of them, probably.

But then again, they'll probably have some super-duper hyperspace tracker that tracks all of them and instantly figures out which ones are the real ones, because the first order can pull new tech out of their ass at a moments notice in the new movies. It's like playing tabletop with a DM who is obsessed with keeping you on the back foot, so he keeps inventing new reasons you can't remotely even the odds in your favor. And maybe that's why I dislike the new movies so much(among other reasons).

Then again, they never explains why those escorting Star Destroyers can't just catch up to the Resisty fleet, flank and murder them at any time. We know Star Destroyers can move damn fast(fast enough to catch the Falcon or a Corellian Corvette, per Ep 4/5) and 2 of them should be more then enough to overwhelm the sole Mon Calamari Cruiser they have. Instead, they just don't because......that would make too much sense?

I think you are putting way more thought into it than any Star Wars screenwriter has ever put into in. Dont think too much about Star Wars, it just breaks under its own wieght.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

The whole "they can only track one of us at a time" was out of character knowledge. Poe was working on Finn and Rose's educated guess and they cut Holdo out completely.
If it were a spy or compromised astromech, they'd've been shit out of luck.
They didn't have jump-capable decoys because their fighter bays got blowed up

 

[Bob_McMillan]

When I first watched TLJ, it was kinda okay. I liked the hyperspace ram (I have wondered for YEARS why they just didn't do that), and the Kylo and Rey stuff. However as with all things, the more I thought about, the less I liked it. I began to hate it even.

One thing I think sums up my dislike for the movie is the death of Admiral Ackbar. Fun fact, Ackbar almost never made it on screen in ROTJ. People thought he was too ugly to be on the good guys side. But they stuck with him, because they thought it was important to show that it doesn't matter if you look different, you can still be a hero. Decades later, he's become a fan favorite, a meme, an iconic Star Wars character.

And in the Last Jedi, they just fucking kill him off screen.

W H Y

I'm not going to pretend Ackbar was a deep character, or even a character I personally liked, but the fact that they actually TOOK THE TIME to kill off a side character from the originals for literally NO reason just blows my mind. Especially when Ackbar was so obviously a better choice than Holdo.

Thats why I hate TLJ. Not because it was an entirely bad movie, but because they focused entirely way too much on subverting your expectations rather than just being good. Woah, Luke throws away his lightsaber?!? SO UNEXPECTED! What, Rey's parents are nobody!?! Who could have seen that coming? Damn, Snoke was killed?!! Thats crazy!

Its a lame trick that worked the first time I saw the movie and never again. This movie could have easily been so much better, and should have been so much better. How Disney, infamous for firing directors for having independent thoughts, particularly in the Star Wars franchise, just let Rian Johnson do whatever he wanted is crazy.

And then when TROS came out, we all learned that Disney never had a goddamn plan at all. I don't expect every franchise to be the MCU, but for fucks sake, this is STAR WARS. At least TLJ was a competent enough action movie, nothing in TROS is interesting to watch. The lightsaber fights suck, the wars in the stars were embarrassingly bad, and every other action scene is forgettable. What a goddamn shit show, nothing was done well in that movie.

As for TFA, I liked it, and I still kind of do simply because of the experience leading up to it. What a great marketing campaign. However, my tolerance for all of its faults relied heavily on how the next two movies would do. And we all know how that turned out.

All in all, as with all forms of post Disney acquisition Star Wars media, the sequel movies disappointed. How Disney managed to fuck up such a rich IP so badly in so little time astounds me.

 

[Chimpzy]

My only real problem with the new series, they never told us what ever happened to the Rebellion/Republic's greatest hero of all time... Wedge Antillies.

They kinda did tho. He has a cameo as the gunner on the Falcon during the final battle in Rise of Skywalker.


At 1:17, That's Denis Lawson, the guy who played Wedge in epi V-VI. He even gets a line.

 

[Ezekiel]

I liked The Last Jedi, but JJ Abrams did enough damage by himself that I never wanna watch any of them again. I can't believe how much he cancelled out the middle of the story. I ended up writing a lengthy criticism after it was over, which I never do because of how many movies I watch.

The more I think about The Rise of Skywalker, the more it bothers me. This trilogy is a mess and I have no desire to ever see it again. I actually liked The Last Jedi and was hoping it would all come together at the end. I liked the message of The Last Jedi, about letting go of the past and about the Sith and Jedi philosophies being just interpretations of the same thing, that the force doesn't choose sides. I feel that it respected the original trilogy more than Abrams' movies, even the character of Luke, whose reaction to the darkness in Ben Solo, to the fear that he would turn and destroy the Jedi school, was only fleeting and believable. I liked that Kylo Ren unshackled himself from his master by defeating him. Episode IX really should have just had Kylo Ren as the main villian, instead of once again going back to the pawn of the evil master idea. I really thought he had become his own man with the end of Last Jedi and that we might see a more clearheaded ruler in Episode IX. Destroying the helmet that made him feel more like Vader was a part of that.

I'm so confused that Luke searched for Palpatine while exiling himself, or searched for Palpatine between training the new Jedi and exiling himself. This dumb retcon just so Kylo Ren could have a master again. I wonder what the point of the war in the previous two movies was if Palpatine could just pull star destroyers out of his ass, which is so damn ridiculous. How did Palpatine gather such a massive force of star destroyers after the Empire had been all but defeated, and why did he wait to reveal himself until Episode IX? Limitless resources and manpower with no explanation. I find it very hard to believe that no one would have known. Because we all know the Empire is great at keeping secrets. See the Bothan spies in Return of the Jedi and angry Hux in Rise of Skywalker and the secret plans transmitted by rebel spies in Episode IV (ignoring the retcon of Rogue One). But an emperor who builds a gigantic fleet and gathers limitless resources and men from all over the galaxy, who has to coordinate all this and surround himself with people who execute his commands, would have remained a secret. And Kylo Ren wouldn't have known about any of this. Right... How would these ships even have lasted under several tons of water for such lengthy periods of time? Spaceships aren't designed for extreme pressure.

I really didn't want Rey to be related to anyone and was so relieved when The Last Jedi said that she was no one, came from nothing. It meant that anyone could be a chosen one or whatever, that the force didn't just select those from the families. My biggest fear for Episode IX was that JJ Abrams would undo that, and he fucking did. I hoped they'd explain her power some other way. Why another offspring? It's so predictable, so dumb, like every hero in the galaxy has to be related. Rey's whole arc was about finding out where she belongs and who she is. I did like the idea presented in Rise of Skywalker that she can be whoever she wants to be, but we could have gotten there just fine by continuing from where TLJ ended.

Rian Johnson:

"If she were told that she's related to this person, or Luke is her this, or whatever, that'd be the easiest thing she could hear. That's everything she wanted, that would instantly define what her place is in this universe. So to me, the equivalent of "I am your father" is "No, you've got to stand on your own two feet. There are not going to be those easy answers here for you. You're wondering who you are? Okay, well, you have to find out who you are for yourself."

I found it dumb that they gave Leia a lightsaber, yet never showed her with it in the present. Carrie Fisher explained that she was force sensitive, but chose not to pursue Jedi training because of the responsibilities she felt she owed to the Rebels/Resistance. That would have been more believable than this revelation in the final episode.

I'm pretty sure if a moon crashed into Kef Bir, which is itself a moon, that moon would be freaking gone. Death Star II has a diameter of 160 km. That's enough to destroy Earth's atmosphere. It's sixteen times the size of the meteor that ended the dinosaurs. Even if just half or a third the space station landed on Kef Bir, it would be absolutely catastrophic. And how the hell can so much of it be seen from within the moon's atmosphere? It's too massive. We saw the whole exterior of the space station get obliterated in Return of the Jedi.

 

[Ezekiel]

When did force users become so ridiculous, so godly. Even little things like Luke lifting the X-Wing out of the ocean annoy me. Force ghosts were never able to interact like that with the real world, and if they could it would change the battles entirely. Luke would have confronted Palpatine with Obi-Wan and Yoda and probably even Qui Gon Jinn, Mace Windu and the whole rest of the Jedi counsel as ghosts. It's stupid. It makes Jedi unbeatable, removing any stakes. What makes it only more annoying is that Rey could have lifted the X-Wing out of the ocean herself. Disney repeatedly completely screws logic just for dramatic effect.

I actually blame The Force Awakens for most of the problems in The Last Jedi and the trilogy as a whole. It's Rian Johnson who tried to salvage Abrams' mess. Abrams and Disney didn't even TRY to imagine what the galaxy might really be like after the deaths of Palpatine and Vader. There was no world building. The Empire wouldn't have just turned to "ashes," as the opening crawl in The Force Awakens stated. There still would have been much to do for the Rebels. I would have imagined Leia as representative of the peace keepers trying to help govern a new Republic or expanded Alliance. Perhaps Commander/General Solo with forces of the new Republic/Alliance would have tried to mop up the remaining Empire. Think about that scene at the end of Rise of Skywalker when the huge allied space fleet shows up to save the day. That should have been the allies from the start of Episode VII. I actually would have started the new trilogy with the Empire on the losing side, from the perspective of Storm Trooper Finn or maybe an Imperial Rey. The first movie would have been about the Empire's resurgence or the First Order rising from the shambles (not the ashes) of the Empire, under the leadership of a new force user, whom I haven't decided should be Sith or not. Or, perhaps even better, a band of force users, a few who left Luke's school. They would have been unique characters who actually interact, wearing no masks (so as to give them more character), with Kylo Ren or whoever sort of but not quite at the top. They would have been more of a threat to Rey, the Knights of Ren that are briefly mentioned in The Force Awakens. That would have been SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

I wouldn't have wasted the last thirty years of Luke's life either. If I did make him a McGuffin, someone the Empire and Alliance are searching for, I would have, at the end, when Rey finds him, shown him not by himself on a little island, but with a school of apprentices he has been teaching in secret. The Force Awakens pissed on Luke before Johnson ever did. The trilogy could have also been about Luke and his apprentice, perhaps Leia's son or daughter, and how he tries to train him/her with the dark shadow of his family hanging over them. We would have witnessed that instead of being told of the events by characters. I would have actually had him survive the trilogy. Why did the whole trio have to be killed? What's wrong with just dying of old age after a meaningful life? The space fantasy could end "happily ever after." You just know Rey and Finn will be murdered in their fifties/sixties too. Han I see as necessary, since Ford wanted out.

Abrams, under the poor direction of Disney to do a soft reboot, just kept everything the same. Another desert protagonist. Rebels against a huge Empire again, barely mentioning the Republic or explaining anything that happened in the last thirty years. Another planet-destroying sphere. Solo still smuggling. The Jedi still just Luke, another hermit. Leia still with the underdog Rebels. Rey another child of a Sith. A Sith lord manipulating the antagonist again. It was all so lazy, safe, regurgitated and unrealistic, demonstrating Abrams barely thought the whole thing through. They wrote Episode VII and started filming in almost no time at all. I can see why Johnson wanted to cancel his mistake. They should have taken another year, at least, writing the three movies beforehand.

I hope they learned a lesson with this trilogy, to take their time writing it. Just because you paid 4 billion dollars for the franchise doesn't mean you have to start pre-production like the next season. George Lucas had been cooking the idea for the The Star Wars series in his head for years before he ever filmed the original. Some things obviously changed as they made the films, but it definitely helped having a plan. Next time, the writers should formulate a three part story covering the whole trilogy and then have the producer make sure the directors follow that vision. It's okay if they take a long while to write it. I know one of the reasons Avatar 2 is taking so long is because James Cameron wrote out the whole rest of the series before he began filming the sequels, and I'm sure that will pay off in the end. At least the original trilogy is a completely self-contained story and isn't hurt by Disney's failings and poor handling of the original characters. Looking back on how badly they screwed up, even the prequel trilogy is starting to look better. I can see myself rewatching those, but I have no desire to ever revisit this mess. I liked some of the things from the sequels, but there are so many major flaws, and it's hurt way more by having a crappy end than the prequels were hurt by having a crappy middle.

Another thing that bothers me are the fans, who try to explain away all the lack of world building with side stories like the books and TV shows, which most people aren't gonna read. That's not how film stories are told. You can't take out the first thirty minutes of Die Hard and expect people to read a book about how John McClane goes to Los Angeles and terrorists (or robbers) hijack the tower. Nobody would be okay with that. If a film or collection of films can't explain itself and has to rely on other media, it fails as a story.

 

[deleted20220709]

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[Bob_McMillan]

You mean like ESB did back in the day? Han Solo is not just a dashing rogue out for himself but an active coward who will abandon his friends right before the Empire will try to destroy their rebellion once and for all (and only gets stuck in with them because he and Chewie are not mechanic-savants but rather a duo of jury-riggers in a piece of void-faring trash). Luke isn't a great hero with amazing power, he's an untrained, reckless prodigy who barely understands his own powers or the risks of them and he's got a temperament entirely unsuited for being the hero the galaxy needs. Han Solo gets captured and carted off to Jabba the Hutt. Darth Vader IS Luke's father.

I don't think there's anything wrong with subverting expectations. I do actually quite like what they did with Luke, but the opening of TLJ is the most random thing in the world. It was played all for laughs, except I don't think its very funny.

The twists and turns in ESB at least added SOMETHING to the universe. What does Snoke getting killed off do, besides making the previous movie look dumb? Rey's parents being "nobodies" is the same. Does that reveal really change anything about her character? Afaik all she does is cry a bit. When Luke learns that Vader is his father, it actually matters to him. He can't see Vader as some unimaginable evil anymore. I felt that the subversions in TLJ were there for shock value and nothing more.

 

[Agema]

And then when TROS came out, we all learned that Disney never had a goddamn plan at all. I don't expect every franchise to be the MCU, but for fucks sake, this is STAR WARS. At least TLJ was a competent enough action movie, nothing in TROS is interesting to watch. The lightsaber fights suck, the wars in the stars were embarrassingly bad, and every other action scene is forgettable. What a goddamn shit show, nothing was done well in that movie.

I remember reading a bit about Lost (JJ Abrams ahoy). Apparently, they introduced some new characters in a series and the fans hated them, so they changed the plan and wrote them out with a grisly death later on the same series. Any "plan" can be rapidly amended to suit customer feedback. I think JJ Abrams just makes slick but slightly empty film-by-numbers movies, and I'll bet you what happened was that he pored through the feedback to TLJ, and (re-)wrote TROS to specifically address the fan criticism, consistency be damned. Abrams is also, I think, mediocre at action sequences. However, apart from the consistency issue, I think great art is more likely to come from a talented creator who maintains a purity of vision. JJ Abrams is not a great creator (hence the derivative nature of so many of his projects), and too much of a short-term people pleaser to even have a purity of vision for what he does create.

The problem for a studio is investing hundreds of millions with the risk of a bomb where the audience don't appreciate the director's vision, so playing safe is preferable to aiming for greatness. Furthermore, Disney does not care about Star Wars itself, there's no emotional attachment there in the way George Lucas would have. Star Wars is just one of many vehicles Disney has to make money - it matters not at all to Disney if it runs the IP down to mediocrity as long as its profitable to do so. There will always be new IP it can find and flog to death later.

In essence, Disney gave Star Wars to a safe pair of hands rather than a visionary, and thus it got slick but muddled adequacy.

 

[deleted20220709]

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[BrawlMan]

I enjoyed the new trilogy well enough. With the Disney buyout I was expecting it to be a little different, and absolutely understood the characters and stories from the Star Wars EU were NEVER going to be a part of the story going forward... and I was OK with that. I loved some of the EU material, but there was a lot of complete garbage there too.

That was my problem with most of the novels; they were so boring and acted like glorified fan fics. Which is hypocritical on Disney's part, because they did not like any of the ideas from the EU (such Palpatine being cloned, ressurrected, or having relatives with huge powers), yet felt the need to use all three I just mentioned in the worst possible way.

Rise just fell short by playing it too safe in where it could have gone with the story. That didn't make it bad, just kind of safe and not great like it could have been.

I like Rise, but there was clear backpedaling. All of the sudden Rey went from nobody to she's related to one of the character with some type of lineage. That is backpedaling and actually going further than playing it safe.

As far as the prequels go, the only one I truly dislike is Episode II. Phantom Menace is just mediocre and Revenge of the Sith is a regular 7/10.

 

[Breakdown]

You mean like ESB did back in the day? Han Solo is not just a dashing rogue out for himself but an active coward who will abandon his friends right before the Empire will try to destroy their rebellion once and for all (and only gets stuck in with them because he and Chewie are not mechanic-savants but rather a duo of jury-riggers in a piece of void-faring trash). Luke isn't a great hero with amazing power, he's an untrained, reckless prodigy who barely understands his own powers or the risks of them and he's got a temperament entirely unsuited for being the hero the galaxy needs. Han Solo gets captured and carted off to Jabba the Hutt. Darth Vader IS Luke's father.

ESB was incredibly subversive when it was released, which is why it got mediocre reviews at first and only became accepted as the true high point of the trilogy some time in the 90's when the updated re-masters came around. TLJ does the same thing as ESB did, in that it subverts and re-frames the plot set up by TFA and in doing so tries to take the trilogy in a novel direction (Star Wars is arguably beloved because ESB and RotJ didn't stick to the conventions of late 70's/early 80's sci-fi). The main difference between the trilogies is that the original has RotJ follow ESB's trajectory, while RoS is in a hurry to undo as much of TLJ as possible in order to remain a faithful, nostalgic throwback to RotJ. It sadly makes both RoS and TLJ weaker, because instead of complementing each other like ESB and RotJ does, it makes them compete and the whole trilogy suffers massively.

The ESB wasn't really that subversive in relation to a New Hope. You say that Han Solo was a coward but the first thing he does in the movie is risk his life by going out in a blizzard to rescue Luke whilst the other rebels stay back at the base. His behaviour is consistent with a New Hope, in that Han Solo will risk his life for his friends, but he's not a member of the rebel alliance and he has his own problems to worry about. Luke's behaviour is also consistent with his characterisation in an New Hope - idealistic but reckless.

The only really subversive elements in the ESB are the downbeat ending, and Darth Vader being revealed as Luke's father. That works because it opens up new possibilities for plot development - maybe Luke doesn't have to kill Vader, maybe he can try to redeem him instead. In contrast the Last Jedi shuts down opportunities to develop the plot, and offers nothing else in exchange. It's great that Rey finds out her parents are nobodies, but without that mystery to drive her forward, what is she going to do in the final film? She could try to redeem Kylo Ren, but she already tried that, so it's just repetition. And that does happen in ROS, and it falls flat. Similarly, Kylo Ren has already overthrown Snoke in the middle film, and chosen power and ambition over Rey. So what's he got left for the final film?

I guess the Last Jedi does vaguely suggest the possibility of General Hux leading a coup against Ren, but that's undermined because Hux is portrayed as a total idiot.

 

[Dalisclock]

I think you are putting way more thought into it than any Star Wars screenwriter has ever put into in. Dont think too much about Star Wars, it just breaks under its own wieght.

I know. I have to remind myself of that pretty much anytime I watch the films and sometimes in the shows.

The Invisible Hand getting damaged and just falling out of Orbit only to come in for an almost perfect landing in ROTS had my inner space nerd crying so hard and the Armchair commander in me just wants to scream at some of the battles(the entire battle of Endor hinged on the Imperial Army being able to GUARD A DOOR, which they FAILED AT).

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Star Wars is just one of many vehicles Disney has to make money - it matters not at all to Disney if it runs the IP down to mediocrity as long as its profitable to do so. There will always be new IP it can find and flog to death later.

In essence, Disney gave Star Wars to a safe pair of hands rather than a visionary, and thus it got slick but muddled adequacy.

I agree, I am under no delusions that Disney actually cares about Star Wars, but TROS made half as much as TFA at the box office. That is an insane drop, although of course TROS still somehow managed to make a billion. It's still a financially successful, but you'd think that Disney would be concerned that they're earning 50% percent less than they could have.

Also I wouldn't blame it all on Abrams, I don't think he ever even really wanted to come back to Star Wars. Poor bastard was pulled back in after Disney lost faith in Colin Trevorrow. Disney should have had at least a rough idea of where they wanted to go with the sequels, that they didn't even have their main antagonist set in stone is ridiculous.

A lot of things. In fact, I'd argue that Snoke's death at Kylo Ren's hands is the pivotal moment in TLJ and it is a great scene because it does so many things at once:

Man I've forgotten how hassle it is to quote things on here haha

1. I don't disagree, but then is that even interesting? Basically this scene tells us that Snoke is an idiot, which seems like the one thing we know about him. But we have no context because we have no idea who he is or what he did to to get there. The impact of his death is not from the sudden loss of an actual character, but yet again just the "oh wow they actually did that".

2 - 3. I think we just interpreted the scenes really differently. Kylo didn't seem angry at all to me, if anything it seemed he had already made up his mind before they got to the throne room. It wasn't an Emperor-frying-Luke situation either, Rey wasn't in any immediate danger from any one but Kylo. And since the movie never really bothered to show Snoke's and Kylo's relationship, the decision to betray Snoke and save Rey doesn't really seem like that big a deal.

4. True. But again, they do essentially nothing with this idea so they didn't truly add any thing?

TLJ wants to tell us that it isn't who your parents are or your position in a hierarchy or your military training that defines you. It is what you do with what you have under the circumstances you find yourself in that makes you a hero and that even a child slave cleaning stables can have the spark of greatness within them. Rey in TFA hinges her entire journey on the bet that her parents are important people, people with a destiny that they can bequeath her.

I don't disagree. I was completely fine with Rey not having some super special lineage. I was kinda annoyed that they didn't at least give us a real answer, although I think it was heavily implied that Kylo was lying. But is there an actual moment in this film where this revelation matters to Rey? Where it impacts her decisions or outlook on life? Its been a long time since I've watched TLJ, but from what I remember, she goes straight to doing sick loops in the Falcon and levitating rocks to save the day.

Its supposed to be show, don't tell. But TLJ did neither of these things. They did nothing to earn these moments, and did nothing to make these moments really matter.