The decline of *Hardcore* gaming

[Vrex360]

Since people who consider themselves 'Hardcore gamers' keep consistantly flaming me and demanding I only ever play games made by Valve.... I can honestly say there might be something positive about them all perishing.

That said however actual hardcore titles are still being produced... they're everywhere.

 

[aww yea]

Because I know personally my controllers spent 90% of thier life airborn, and thats a fact I'm proud of

that line spoke to me.

im a younger gamer... started on the sega saturn back when sonic was GOOD. (dreamcast sonic was good too, 3D isnt the problem, wolfhedgehogs and knighthogs are.)

and a game i remember very much so was G-police

incredibly difficult to play but so good when you got the hang of it. And before even the ps2 had been released G-police two was out and shit. they changed the flight system to make it easier.

what the fuck. just abandon what made the game great to appeal to a wide audience that arent looking in your direction anyway.

on a lighter note im glad to see that wipeout hasn't a doesn't seem willing to give up its speed and flight system for attention. they'd rather earn it. and earn they did in the end

 

[OnceandFutureGamer]

i'll stick to a philosoph stick to a philosophy i learned a long time ago, don't feed the trolls, GTFO

Bump

LOL you really just "Bumped" your own thread. GTFO

I'll stick to a philosophy i learned a long time ago, don't feed the trolls, GTFO

 

[OnceandFutureGamer]

there.

I actually spoke of IWBG a while back in the thread, it isn't hardcore, its unfair and is deliberatly so, which is alot of its apeal, IWBG is insanly popular for that very reason, would it be so hard to take a note out of the public and do something right for a change...but companies will spend thier times catering to the regs, business is business after all

 

[EnglishMuffin]

Well mediocrity is the norm these days. People just want to look at something nice and shiny and not want to bother with anything complex. They want something that you can pick up, play for 20 minutes, forget about for a week, then come back and not have forgotten anything, because the game is so poorly thought out and bland that there is really nothing to remember.

 

[OnceandFutureGamer]

Yet its expected for me to pay 60 bucks a game....god knows i do it, maybe its that little light of hope in the back of my mind...(maybe it won't be like it was last time maybe its changed)...i feel like the wife of an abusive husband...

 

[Nia-san]

As far as my hardcore gaming stories go, probably my biggest one was after I sold back my N64 so I could by a PS2 (this was a while back when PS2 was the latest and greatest). I regretted this decision for a long time because of my longing for beating up Nintendo characters with other Nintendo characters. Long after I forgot about it, my friends and I had a retro gaming crave so we looked for a way to play those oldies that we all know and love. In the end, we found project 64, the N64 emulator for you computer. Basically it made my day and still does, since it doesn't need to run full screen you can use it as a "quick break" between writing those boring papers. I still use the emulator too.

Thats probably the extent of my hardcore gaming. kinda sad if you think about it.

 

[mtk2a]

Interesting topic.

"Hardcore" could mean challenging or difficult, complicated or just requiring a large investment of time. People have all kinds of definitions for "hardcore" when it comes to games. I think the one that most people would agree on is that a hardcore game is one that only the most involved and dedicated gamer would be interested in. AKA not casual.

A lot of games I would consider hardcore are PC exclusives, but not all of them. Here are a few examples off the top of my head which fit that definition.

Single-player
Baldur's Gate series on "Core Rules" or harder difficulty modes
Serious Sam on the hardest difficulty
Mega Man series games have always been pretty challenging
Falcon 4.0

Multi-player
Counter-Strike
Quake 3
Unreal Tournament
StarCraft (same with most RTS when played competitively)
WoW's Arena system fits in here somewhere

Then of course you have games that aren't exactly difficult to play, but require a lot of time and/or planning to be successful. Some of those are MMO's but not all.

EverQuest: Trilogy
X3: Reunion
Diablo II LOD closed ladder
SWG pre-CU Jedi grind

As for the decline in hardcore games, I think its inevitable due to the increasing casual game market, especially for consoles. Consoles are the new mecca for casual gamers, and it should surprise no one that we are seeing more casual titles released for those systems.

That doesn't mean hardcore games will cease to exist, but the ratio of casual to hardcore games is obviously going to change with the market as gaming in general becomes more mainstream.

As casual games draw a larger and larger share of the market, I think it is to be expected that most of the new and shiny big-budget games are going to lean more toward the casual side, because the publishers of those games want to make as much money as possible.

For the hardcore gamers out there, you have to face the fact that you are no longer in control of the industry. The casuals outnumber the hardcores by a wide and growing margin. In the near-future I would expect most of the hardcore games to come from independent publishers with considerably smaller budgets for graphics and advertising. It might appear that hardcore gaming is dying out, but the truth is it's rate of growth is just far out-stripped by the growth of the casual market. Once that levels off, and gaming has become as mainstream as it is going to get (like television did), that is when we will see new expansion of the more "niche" hardcore-oriented games.

I personally welcome the continuing growth of public interest in casual games, and games in general, because I know it opens doors and fuels the industry as a whole. As long as the consumers exist who are looking for a more challenging and difficult experience, there will be producers to take advantage of that demand.

TLDR: Worry not, hardcore gamers, the sky shall not fall.

 

[Skribblings]

In my definition, a "hardcore gamer" is a person who plays a platform for the main part of their day (excluding sleep.....usually....) Saying the amount of hardcore gamers has decreased I must say is bullshit. The largest game that has made people "hardcore gamers" is WoW. For example, in the good ol' days you wouldn?t' t hear about some guy who died or got rushed to the hospital from playing a video game so much he passed out. For WoW, this happens a lot more often, and people are used to hearing about it.
Hopefully this game will change (I personally dislike this game because of the fact that it has killed people) and people will get less interested in it, but that day may be far off in the future...

 

[mtk2a]

In my definition, a "hardcore gamer" is a person who plays a platform for the main part of their day (excluding sleep.....usually....) Saying the amount of hardcore gamers has decreased I must say is bullshit. The largest game that has made people "hardcore gamers" is WoW. For example, in the good ol' days you wouldn?t' t hear about some guy who died or got rushed to the hospital from playing a video game so much he passed out. For WoW, this happens a lot more often, and people are used to hearing about it.
Hopefully this game will change (I personally dislike this game because of the fact that it has killed people) and people will get less interested in it, but that day may be far off in the future...

I've heard ignorance is bliss. You must be blissed out of your mind.

 

[RobotJesus]

In my opinion its more about what you strive to get out of your gaming. I think of videogames the same way i think of sports (mainly golf and football), as a competition based on a set of rules in a controlled environment. Older games were a beautiful example of this, as they were physically and mentally challenging, as usual forced you to master a few different skills before you really unlocked your potential. Halo 1 was also a great example of this (slightly skewed opinion by a fantastic LAN party group, where we were able the no enforced rocketlauncher/overshield/invis whoring). The team that played the best won, and when you lost, it meant you usually learned something new.

The problem is that videogames used to be bought by actual people, spending hard-earned money from allowances/chores or "using up" the birthday and holiday gifts on your games and systems (i was young once too) or jobs , and not by every 12-17 year olds Mom whenever they ***** and moan about it. With the coming of multiplayer online, you either have to deal with the masses of 4chan morons, or play with a static group of sorts and play clan, which always seems to take up a lot more time than most people have.

Because of the downfall of the LAN, and by that i guess i mean the modern internet (lol, the irony is thick) the art of the competetive pickup videogaming has been lost to terrible pubs and clan matches that demand too much time investment.

I dont play very many single player games either, as theyre all sequels of sequels, or ripoffs of sequels of sequels and such. I havent seen an original idea (besides things like I want to be the guy and World of Goo) since Spore (which sucked because they took out the procedural animation and botched the space and civ stage) and Portal (which was fucking awesome). Its just an onslaught of MJRPGs and free-to-play MMOs and FPSs. Fuck the American gaming market.

 

[KrackleJack]

Well i missed the old days like Ghost 'N Goblins and Castlevania but they are the past now its a mix of both Hardcore and Causle games. Maybe in the future things change back to Hardcore. We Just have to wait and see.

 

[solidd]

I made a thread similar to this recently and all I got in response was people going WAHHH play this obscure game, its really hard even though no one has heard of it or cares about it except me.

THIS is what I was after. I have to agree with some of the previous posts in that games were harder back then due to sometimes poor design and also, lack of experience. Younger gamers these days I find are more adaptive to gaming and developers are finding it difficult to find challenging notions to incorporate into new games. Also as the OP mentioned, the gaming industry has developed to a point where the main market is the goal, not the elite gamers who play games as anyone else would breathe.

Playing games for the fun and satisfaction of finishing them is different to playing games for the challenge of completing them. I find the former category is widely seen as the most common idea game developers have when designing games today.

I think the emphasis needs to be made on difficulty level. Ive found a few games (Bioshock for example) where on the higher difficulties all that has changed is the health of enemies (its gone up) and the damage they do (also increased). This is a pretty boring way to challenge someone, just make them effectively grind more and take longer to kill things. Why not improve the speed of enemies so your reaction has to improve to accommodate? Or include new abilities or resistances for enemies? I dunno, im just spouting a few ideas here, basically im saying that difficulty increases are pretty lazy and dont really increase the difficulty, just the time it takes to complete the game and the amount of patience you need to have.

a REALLY good example of good difficulty is european extreme mode on mgs2. that shit is HARD. but then again...the patience and time thing comes in again, but it IS meant to be a stealth game, so i suppose its forgiveable.

 

[Plauged1]

Games nowadays would be more fun if they would cut the "OMG multiplayer online PWN nooBZ" bullshit. Sure, it is fun, but they need to remember the old days when two people sat and played split or single screen. That is the only way to have fun with story mode in RE5. I wish I had my ps1 right now...

But some games back then were just bullshit and too hard because of design choices. Castlevania was a ***** not because of the annoying enemies, but because Simon had a really bad jump system. To people that have the nostalgic urge to play it now: NEVER hold still and jump.

 

[TheGuyWithTwoEyes]

I have a friend who has not played a single Nintendo game, old or new, and thinks they all suck because they have pixels. This same friend, also, is one of the many jocks and preps that think they are gamers. These same people, every single day, talk about the same game, every single day. And they have been doing this for the past two years. Every day, it is "did you get that achievement on Halo 3?" and "dude, I sniped that guy in the face on Call of Duty 4." I reason with these people that the classics like Mario and Zelda are far better games than most modern games. Guess what their first comeback on that is? "The graphics suck." It's a game from the 1980s for jeez sake, you actually expect good graphics?

Another thing, when I suggest them to try out the newer sequels to series like Mario and Zelda, to just go to the rental store, and get them, they obviously decline and go and get their fucking achievements on Halo 3.

Another-Other thing, how come everybody hates the PC as a gaming platform? I only know one person in my school who agrees that the PC is superior to the Xbox and PS3, both graphically and because the PC is cool. Also, I have a friend who said he bought San Andreas for the PC very recently off Ebay, and he said he couldn't play it because it had frames (Frames per second). How dumb can you possibly get!? All games run on FRAMES. He just couldn't run the game on his computer because he had a inferior graphics card, and it was running too slow for him to play, so he blamed it on the game and not his computer.

PSSSSSSBLAHIDON'TCARETHISISGOINGONLONGENOUGHANDISSTRAYINGOFFTOPIC: I have a friend, named Ryan, who hates: Valve Software, iD Software, Doom because you cannot look up and down and he couldn't beat the first level because he couldn't figure out how to shoot the Imp on the ledge above the nukeage, MMORPGs, Quake because it's graphics should have looked like Crysis in 1996, MMORPGs espcecially, MMORPGs including Runescape, World of Warcraft, and Final Fantasy 11, the Final Fantasy series in a whole, and any game I like, literally, he will nitpick at any game I like for hours and hours on end.

*Dances* *Singing:* I went off topic, I think. Oh yeah, I just went off topic, yeah. Do a funky dance.

 

[OnceandFutureGamer]

I made a thread similar to this recently and all I got in response was people going WAHHH play this obscure game, its really hard even though no one has heard of it or cares about it except me.

THIS is what I was after. I have to agree with some of the previous posts in that games were harder back then due to sometimes poor design and also, lack of experience. Younger gamers these days I find are more adaptive to gaming and developers are finding it difficult to find challenging notions to incorporate into new games. Also as the OP mentioned, the gaming industry has developed to a point where the main market is the goal, not the elite gamers who play games as anyone else would breathe.

Playing games for the fun and satisfaction of finishing them is different to playing games for the challenge of completing them. I find the former category is widely seen as the most common idea game developers have when designing games today.

I think the emphasis needs to be made on difficulty level. Ive found a few games (Bioshock for example) where on the higher difficulties all that has changed is the health of enemies (its gone up) and the damage they do (also increased). This is a pretty boring way to challenge someone, just make them effectively grind more and take longer to kill things. Why not improve the speed of enemies so your reaction has to improve to accommodate? Or include new abilities or resistances for enemies? I dunno, im just spouting a few ideas here, basically im saying that difficulty increases are pretty lazy and dont really increase the difficulty, just the time it takes to complete the game and the amount of patience you need to have.

a REALLY good example of good difficulty is european extreme mode on mgs2. that shit is HARD. but then again...the patience and time thing comes in again, but it IS meant to be a stealth game, so i suppose its forgiveable.

we can really delve into the philosophy of it all, really the end result is this. Do not forget...simple as that, gaming had a unique and simple background that seems to be getting more and more muddled and forgotten. I want ppl and even critics to think less of the graphics and more of the gameplay. A collective hive mind of *oh ya this is a great game i heard oh ya this is a great game cuz the online* is a dangerous mind set to be in. It seems the more we accept that as a thought the more we admit that its ok that longevity and originality can be replaced with a highly polished al be it beautiful shit pile.

 

[NeoDeath90]

when sega was still a console giant and nintendo wasn't pumping out gimmicky motion sensor games.

When were these halcyon days!?

I think the main reason games are a lot easier/less frustrating nowdays is because gamers, as a culture, have become a lot less.. well, I don't want to say "dedicated", but I can't think of another word to use. I see myself as a dedicated gamer, but there are a lot of people who play games inbetween their little skateboard meets or whatever, or only when there's a group of people around. The lone gamer, his face pressed against the screen, reaching for that ONE last point, is sadly becoming a thing of the past. It's becoming more a question of "fun" rather than "difficulty", the designer's definitions of both fluctuating wildly from game to game.

Gaming is more of a hobby than a lifestyle for the bulk of society. they would rather go home after a long day at work and play a nice FPS for a couple hours rather than play Zelda or Final Fantasy for a straight day with that "One More Level Syndrome" all gamers face at some point.

Many companies are picking up on this now and ramping up the casual-ness of most games to make a profit on the hobby side of the spectrum.

 

[OnceandFutureGamer]

when sega was still a console giant and nintendo wasn't pumping out gimmicky motion sensor games.

When were these halcyon days!?

I think the main reason games are a lot easier/less frustrating nowdays is because gamers, as a culture, have become a lot less.. well, I don't want to say "dedicated", but I can't think of another word to use. I see myself as a dedicated gamer, but there are a lot of people who play games inbetween their little skateboard meets or whatever, or only when there's a group of people around. The lone gamer, his face pressed against the screen, reaching for that ONE last point, is sadly becoming a thing of the past. It's becoming more a question of "fun" rather than "difficulty", the designer's definitions of both fluctuating wildly from game to game.

Gaming is more of a hobby than a lifestyle for the bulk of society. they would rather go home after a long day at work and play a nice FPS for a couple hours rather than play Zelda or Final Fantasy for a straight day with that "One More Level Syndrome" all gamers face at some point.

Many companies are picking up on this now and ramping up the casual-ness of most games to make a profit on the hobby side of the spectrum.

Our kind is becoming a minority i understand this. But its not because more ppl have less time, in fact more teenagers have more time these days then ever, Its because we were given the choice to make things easier somewhere along the way and so it was. Bc some ppl still play fallout turned all the way down to very easy, bc some ppl decide to cop out and *relax* instead of wanting a challenge. Popcap games exist for a a reason, its for the housewives and businesmen who pretend they don't have enough time in thier life. Loosen the tie and breath it doesn't take hours upon hours to enjoy a hard game, just dedication.

A close example is riding your bike, you do it for an hour or more a day but not to much to not wear urself out before a race. dedication but understanding there are more important things in life such as family and your actual job.

 

[OnceandFutureGamer]

I have a friend who has not played a single Nintendo game, old or new, and thinks they all suck because they have pixels. This same friend, also, is one of the many jocks and preps that think they are gamers. These same people, every single day, talk about the same game, every single day. And they have been doing this for the past two years. Every day, it is "did you get that achievement on Halo 3?" and "dude, I sniped that guy in the face on Call of Duty 4." I reason with these people that the classics like Mario and Zelda are far better games than most modern games. Guess what their first comeback on that is? "The graphics suck." It's a game from the 1980s for jeez sake, you actually expect good graphics?


Another thing, when I suggest them to try out the newer sequels to series like Mario and Zelda, to just go to the rental store, and get them, they obviously decline and go and get their fucking achievements on Halo 3.

Another-Other thing, how come everybody hates the PC as a gaming platform? I only know one person in my school who agrees that the PC is superior to the Xbox and PS3, both graphically and because the PC is cool. Also, I have a friend who said he bought San Andreas for the PC very recently off Ebay, and he said he couldn't play it because it had frames (Frames per second). How dumb can you possibly get!? All games run on FRAMES. He just couldn't run the game on his computer because he had a inferior graphics card, and it was running too slow for him to play, so he blamed it on the game and not his computer.

PSSSSSSBLAHIDON'TCARETHISISGOINGONLONGENOUGHANDISSTRAYINGOFFTOPIC: I have a friend, named Ryan, who hates: Valve Software, iD Software, Doom because you cannot look up and down and he couldn't beat the first level because he couldn't figure out how to shoot the Imp on the ledge above the nukeage, MMORPGs, Quake because it's graphics should have looked like Crysis in 1996, MMORPGs espcecially, MMORPGs including Runescape, World of Warcraft, and Final Fantasy 11, the Final Fantasy series in a whole, and any game I like, literally, he will nitpick at any game I like for hours and hours on end.

*Dances* *Singing:* I went off topic, I think. Oh yeah, I just went off topic, yeah. Do a funky dance.

I don't much care for pc gaming due to alot of the best games require a thousand dollar computer or more, i could make it ya but in all honesty my computer does just fine (even though i really wanted demigod) for what i need, runs oblivion at a great fps.

But pc gamers are a little full of themselves and in all honesty the human eye can only see to a maximum of 60 fps and thats with the fancy smoothing thing games do now a day, 30 is really all an eye can process