The DM's Burden

[Wildrow12]

Hey folks,

I'm Wildrow and I....I have a gaming group survival problem.

It wasn't always this way. I used to be a pretty decent DM (good narratives, fun adventures,
reasonable challenges, or at least that was the feedback I got from my players).

But lately, things have been unpleasant. Either I give my players softball adventurers (which makes them cocky or worse yet, bored)or we end up with a case of "Honey, I exterminated the Party" (which just pisses them off).

Now half the problem is that these players are rookies, and still are not wise to the ways
of RPGs. But I am not so proud as to claim that I am not responsible for half of the problem as well (after all, a good DM's primary responsibility is to make the sessions fun).

Maybe I have been spoiled by having experienced players in my groups for all these years.

So now I turn to you, fellow DMs and players, knights and cyber-samurai of the kitchen table. I come to you as a man humbled and willing to hear your council.

Please, tell me how I may best challenge my neophyte players without crushing them outright. Any tales or experience with ANY system will do.

 

[Artemis923]

Don't be afraid to fudge the die in the PC's favor from time to time. That's what the DM curtain is for.

I'm not saying don't let them die, but I'm just saying it sucks when that character you just invested a ton of time in (backstory, etc.) is gone in minutes.

Unless they do something unredeemingly stupid. Like grapple a Beholder.

Another problem that I've had, especially with P&P n00bs is getting them to role-play seriously. I fix that by asking for a detailed backstory before the campaign begins, for starters. This does several things:

-It filters out who is serious about playing and who isn't. If you can't take five minutes to scribble a few paragraphs about who you are and where you came from, then why are you playing?

-It can give you known weaknesses/fears to create interesting challenges for the PC's to overcome.

-It should give you an idea of how this character would react to different situations.

-A GOOD player will give you a nemesis or three that you could make a special side adventure for.

I read the stories, and then give out XP based on how helpful/detailed they are.

I also give out occasional XP for good roleplaying, even when it may endanger the PC. (Example: a warrior that always fights to the death does not retreat.)

Also, if your encounters are too strong, tone it down. Give your n00bs time to grasp how to work as a team, because that should be the ONLY way they survive.

 

[Seldon2639]

I've always seen it as good to (on some level) say "screw the rules, I have players", and reward creativity. If they want to stick purely to the mechanics of the game, that's fine, but I've always had my most fun as a player when the GM has given us challenges, and allowed us to think through real solutions, or as a GM when I've given challenges and seen the crazy ways the players deal with them.

Examples:

I was doing an L5R based "Dresden Files" game, and at one point two of the wizards of the group decided to combine spells. One of them did wind, one of them did fire, and they created a whirling cyclone of flame and awesomeness. Rather than go through the normal mechanics, I took a step back, looked at how much they had put into it, and decided that no matter what they rolled, they should have killed the damned vampire.

During a 7th sea game, we were using a magical compass to track the bad guy who had the other one, who wanted us to find him. One of the other players asked to put gunpowder on the bottom of our compass, and the GM went with it without thinking about it. Eventually, ours was taken, and the bad guy was going to combine the two compasses in order to accomplish his evil goal. At this point, my friend piped in "remember the gunpowder?" And the GM was forced to accept that the bad guy would have blown up.

During a Spycraft game, my brother was part of a two-man team going through a hostage-filled building, and taking out terrorists. At one point, a bioweapons expert terrorist big-bad had taken a group of hostages into a sealed glass section of a room, and left three eggs where my brother's character could get to them. The challenge was to find the one egg which wasn't infected with a deadly chemical. My brother takes one of the egg, injects it with an anti-chemical syringe from his med kit, and smashes it against the glass. "Clean" he said.

The problem with any kind of very specific challenge is that you're either railroading people into the very specific solution you're looking for, or you really do have to be freewheeling. I'd continue to give them the same kinds of challenges, but encourage them to look outside of the rules. Always remember that the rules are to govern what the makers of the game know are going to happen. It's up to the GM to govern what comes up. And, occasionally, if necessary, throw out the rules for times. Never let bad luck get in the way of a fun time.

 

[BonsaiK]

The general problem is usually that people don't understand how to roleplay properly and they focus too much on digits. Happens in MMORPGs all the time but it's just as fatal for the pen and paper variety. What this inevitably means is that they're not too good at thinking outside the square. The post two posts ago is a good one on how to fix this.

 

[Stevedave00]

I fucking had a long ass post ready, but Firefox fucked me.
Basically throw fun challenges that no one could possibly expect. Like a Wizard whom can't be killed by casters. Or the USB Dongle Goblin.

I dunno why but this post made me laugh for some reason.
Thanks.

 

[SharPhoe]

I fucking had a long ass post ready, but Firefox fucked me.
Basically throw fun challenges that no one could possibly expect. Like a Wizard whom can't be killed by casters. Or the USB Dongle Goblin.

TECH-NO-LOGICAL... RO-MANCE!!

On topic, I have no experience being a DM, but I know that being firm yet flexible is a good place to start. No one likes to be pulled along on train tracks for the whole campaign.

 

[Dr.Sean]

Make a character that is totally straight-jacket-wearing insane that has an unrealistic fear of bunnies. Encourage the players to find out weaknesses, ending it all by "unleashing a hoard of the impure ones unto" the madman and smite his ass in a way that will not hurt the bunnies (area of effect spells that could kill the rabbits are a big no-no)5.

 

[Wildrow12]

I fucking had a long ass post ready, but Firefox fucked me.
Basically throw fun challenges that no one could possibly expect. Like a Wizard whom can't be killed by casters. Or the USB Dongle Goblin.

TECH-NO-LOGICAL... RO-MANCE!!

On topic, I have no experience being a DM, but I know that being firm yet flexible is a good place to start. No one likes to be pulled along on train tracks for the whole campaign.

I give them a big open world to explore and they basically freeze until I have to bludgeon them with 1001 Clue Bats.

*sigh*

But you are right: a DM must be firm and fair.

 

[SharPhoe]

I give them a big open world to explore and they basically freeze until I have to bludgeon them with 1001 Clue Bats.

*sigh*

But you are right: a DM must be firm and fair.

Maybe you could try making your planned objective slightly mire obvious to your players if they aren't that bright.

Or find smarter people to game with, either one.

 

[Wildrow12]

Make a character that is totally straight-jacket-wearing insane that has an unrealistic fear of bunnies. Encourage the players to find out weaknesses, ending it all by "unleashing a hoard of the impure ones unto" the madman and smite his ass in a way that will not hurt the bunnies (area of effect spells that could kill the rabbits are a big no-no)5.

Does a time traveling, cybernetically enhanced, heavily armed, zombie virus carrying (and spreading upon death) clone of James Monroe (yes, the 5th president of the United States) count?

 

[SharPhoe]

In a difficult game I like to run (by difficult I mean that if you're an idiot, you die.) It's entirely open world, and what is accomplished is 100% up to the players. However the main story and quest is made 100% obvious. They can choose to ignore it, but the world progressively gets worse until they complete the main quest.

We could use campaigns like yours in my gaming group, it would weed out the friends of mine who love to act really dumb for no reason other than to get attention...

 

[WolfMage]

Hrm, well, I'd suggest that you listen to Seldon2639, he seems to be the holder of the great mind today.
And I think that you should really reward the cool trick/illogical yet awesome ideas they come up with, like dropping a thousand caltrops on an army, or, well, grappling a Beholder. Let them do crazy fun shit. People like being the awesome action hero.

 

[Woem]

There is loads of good and practical advise on WotC's Save My Game archive [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sg].

 

[Alex_P]

Please, tell me how I may best challenge my neophyte players without crushing them outright.

Tips that others aren't likely to give you (and, yes, they intentionally contradict each other):

1. Forget tactical play.

Do you need to challenge the other players tactically in the first place? Like, is that a play priority for your group? If it's not, then you can just forget about this flavor of "challenge" altogether and concentrate on other stuff instead.

Situation: With their armies waiting, Weeping Raven faces her lover and betrayer, Lord Long Summer, in single combat upon the icy plain.
Conventional D&D approach: Play out a scene using rolls and character attributes.
Try this instead: As a group, just narrate what happens. Screw game mechanics. Screw overly restrictive authority distribution schemes, too -- say what you will about whatever fiction element you care about.

2. Redefine the stakes.

D&D and games like it tend to structure challenges as victory-or-death situations. Forget about that. This isn't a video game where you can save-and-reload to get things right. Make each fight about something -- a race against time, a duel for honor, an opportunity to discredit a rival or impress a potential lover. Games are much more thrilling when the thing at stake in every battle isn't just "Do you get to go on to the next one?"

Games are much more thrilling when you have something to lose other than your life, too -- death in an RPG usually safe thing, you lose the character but the actual integrity of that character is still preserved. Narratively, losing faith or sanity or family or honor can mean so much more. D&D game mechanics trivialize death, anyway, in order to make it easier to sustain "campaign" play.

The other problem is that this makes the consequences of failure so much worse than the rewards of victory. That sucks because it forces you into a good-guys-always-win story structure (because the story is quite likely to just up and end any time they lose). Change the stakes of battle to heroic-but-manageable setbacks and big rewards and you can actually let the protagonists lose from time to time, like they do in almost every real example of "hero's journey" fiction.

Situation: Swashbuckling hero Simon and his merry band of scallywags engage in battle against the Red Duke and his minions. Long ago, the Red Duke murdered Simon's father. Now he's out for revenge!
Conventional D&D approach: If they fail, they die. If they win, the GM contrives some way for the Red Duke to escape death so that he can become a recurring villain. Ultimately, the players are working hard just to preserve the status quo ("We are heroes on some quest that we won't complete until the campaign is over months from now"), and their only reward is in the form of game-mechanical geegaws (loot and XP); the whole game is essentially a short story laboriously stretched out to be the length of a novel.
Try this instead: If they fail, he escapes and becomes a recurring villain. If they win, Simon has achieved his sweet, sweet revenge.

3. Keep the tactical play, forget the risk.

The "Juggernaut" play style is pretty popular. That's when you're really playing to show off and feel awesome rather than to be "challenged" by tactical battles. That's how a lot of video games really work.

Situation: The Big Damn Heroes storm the Tower of a Thousand Orcs.
Conventional D&D approach: Attrition through multiple encounters, time out to rest when the spells and potions and hit points get low, a big boss fight that almost almost kills the party.
Try this instead: Focus on the beautiful carnage-dance of the player-characters cut through their enemies like a scythe through wheat. Throw away concerns about challenge and maintaining the cycle of resource attrition -- this is about bringing the AWESOME and nothing else!

-- Alex

 

[Wildrow12]

Please, tell me how I may best challenge my neophyte players without crushing them outright.

Tips that others aren't likely to give you (and, yes, they are intentionally contradictory):

Thank you, Alex!

 

[Wildrow12]

I've always seen it as good to (on some level) say "screw the rules, I have players", and reward creativity. If they want to stick purely to the mechanics of the game, that's fine, but I've always had my most fun as a player when the GM has given us challenges, and allowed us to think through real solutions, or as a GM when I've given challenges and seen the crazy ways the players deal with them.

You are a source of wisdom and inspiration, Seldon. Thank you!

 

[Croaker42]

Have to push them out of comfort zones. Premake character concepts or force them to play classes they are not used to.
Also throw challanges at them, that will make them think sideways as compared to what they are used to (fugding a counter check every now and then dosent hurt).
I think a great thing is for your players to connect to the personalities they play. If you can get them thinking in new ways they will grow as players quickly.

 

[Slycne]

You should have them create back up characters. A combination of brand new pen and paper players with a DM who is learning what those players are capable of handling is going to lead to player death. That's fine though, it's a learning experience. Eventually you should fall into a good sync and having back up characters will keep the game rolling. If they start depositing their loot in the bank and willing it to either the party or their back up characters they can at least go in with better gear next time.

 

[wewontdie11]

Whenever I have DM'ed a game I've always kept my players interested with enthralling stories, original and interesting NPCs and unexpected plot twists. They were even willing to overlook the total fuck-ups I made with a couple of combat rules because they were interested to see where the rest of the game was going.

Plus my group has a knack for thinking outside the box so no matter how difficult a challenge I throw at them they always seem to find some ridiculous loophole or form some outrageous plan that can foil my very best attempts to kill them. I've never found difficulty an issue as a result, in my experience.

 

[Wildrow12]

Plus my group has a knack for thinking outside the box so no matter how difficult a challenge I throw at them they always seem to find some ridiculous loophole or form some outrageous plan that can foil my very best attempts to kill them. I've never found difficulty an issue as a result, in my experience.

Which was my experience with veteran players....