The Economist on Bulgarian and Romanian immigration. Also discussion about e/immigration

[DaWaffledude]

You're right, and that's why there are many Communists who despise Stalin, because not only he killed Communists, he tainted the name (and symbol, but that's less important) of Communism.

I hate to break it to you, but that's how language works. If the USSR calls itself "communism" then becomes a major world player for 80-odd years, then that's going to be what people think of when they hear "communism". You'd be best off coming up with a new name without the negative connotations. It's a tad too late to reclaim it.

 

[Malty Milk Whistle]

What a cheerful article, if a tad condescending. Nice to see a paper that isn't propagantastic.

 

[Nickolai77]

Literally a third of what I wrote addresses exactly that. 2/3 if you include the fact that it's not about Bulgarians and Romanians immigration to the UK specifically. And the other 1/3 is not even about politics or anything in that nature. So no, I don't see what your point is.

You know, an even minded person would have simply over-looked that. Got up on the wrong side of bed this morning have we?

 

[Bebus]

It is racism because you're discriminating them based on race and not individually as people.

False, and it's people like you who devalue the use of the word "racism". For an explanation of why, let's look at two examples:

"The Roma people are more likely to be criminals than non-Roma". This is not racism. This is fact, based on empirical evidence gathered from every single instance the Roma gather in numbers.

"Because that person is Roma, they are a criminal". This is racism. Because they are using the person's race to pre-determine their guilt.

The first is acceptable because it is true. A group of people stereotyped by the actions they commit. It's perhaps not acceptable to those with crippling PC sensibilities, but then telling the truth rarely is to people like that and they can cram their sensibilities somewhere painful. In reality, it's no different to saying "women are more likely to carry handbags than men".

And on the other hand, let's consider: "because that person is a woman, she will be carrying a handbag". That is making a prejudicial assumption based on the group she is a member of. It might be true, and she might be more likely to be carrying a handbag because she is a woman. But to assume she is carrying a handbag because she is a woman is to be, for want of a better word, sexist.

Making a judgement about a racial group of people is not racist.

Making a judgement about a single person based on the racial group they belong to, is.

Learn the difference.

 

[GonvilleBromhead]

There are few, very minor, legitimate concerns (some of which are rather overblown by the Mail and Farage), a few of which are already in the process of being resolved, but on the whole it's probably in Britain's interests. The jobs they are likely to fill are those in which we are short of skilled workers. Plus, Bulgarian women are very pretty. And more pretty women is always a bonus.

Nice.

Immigration restrictions are Anti-Communist, people should be free to go to wherever they want.

Oh please, if you are going to support a discredited political ideology as a form of teenage rebellion, at least don't be so cliche about it. All the cool kids these day are Imperialists - get with the hepcats, daddyo.

 

[DoPo]

Literally a third of what I wrote addresses exactly that. 2/3 if you include the fact that it's not about Bulgarians and Romanians immigration to the UK specifically. And the other 1/3 is not even about politics or anything in that nature. So no, I don't see what your point is.

You know, an even minded person would have simply over-looked that. Got up on the wrong side of bed this morning have we?

I don't think the term "overlook" holds when you more or less ignore everything I've said. It's more than a tad disrespectful, after all I'm not asking for much, since I've written a grand total of three sentences. If you find it such a daunting task to read the entirety of that, you are more than welcome to not do it and not post.

 

[Suave Charlie]

My problem lies with the increase in gypsies, I'm fairly (European style) liberal, but all that goes out the window when gypsies roll into Bury.
Every time they come through my town they just tend to ruin things and the increase in ATM mugging really bothers me since I often move fairly substantial amounts of money around from different banks.

I get that law abiding Romanians will be filling some niche jerbs, but is the influx of the gypsies who get pushed out of their own countries worth it.

 

[Esotera]

I think it would be completely fine to have uncontrolled migration with the EU, as long as there are numerical restrictions that are gradually eased off so we don't get a massive influx. Basically, the UK government need to take a lesson from how Valve managed Dota 2 keys.

The main issue with migration (in the UK at least) is that we simply don't have the infrastructure to support everyone who's living here already, let alone hundreds of thousands of extra migrants (on top of the natural birth rate). If we built enough houses, made public transport more reliable, had enough schools and hospitals etc, it wouldn't be a problem. That's way more of a problem than "dey took our jobs" or the blown-up issue of benefit seeking.

 

[Nickolai77]

I don't think the term "overlook" holds when you more or less ignore everything I've said. It's more than a tad disrespectful, after all I'm not asking for much, since I've written a grand total of three sentences. If you find it such a daunting task to read the entirety of that, you are more than welcome to not do it and not post.

I still think your reaction was a bit over the top, as no disrespect was intended anyway. As I said, a more reasonable person would not have been so agitated by this.

 

[Ivailo Todorov]

My country is currently a shithole (Bulgaria).The amount of times I heard the bulgarian word 'otstavka'(which means retirement of a politician' this year is more than I have in my whole life.Every single day people are rioting in the streets.A person from the UK would be terrified of the current state of Bulgaria (and probably Romania,I don't know).Wild dogs killing people,seeing gypsies 24/7 etc.

 

[Atrocious Joystick]

I think it would be completely fine to have uncontrolled migration with the EU, as long as there are numerical restrictions that are gradually eased off so we don't get a massive influx. Basically, the UK government need to take a lesson from how Valve managed Dota 2 keys.

I thought we already had free migration within the EU? Have I been wrong about that? Not free as in you can settle anywhere unconditionally. But free as in the only real restrictions are that you need to be able to provide for yourself or be admitted to a university in said country or other things along those lines. A member country can´t say "We´ll only take 1000 worker migrants" and then deny you a working "visa" even if you have a job in the country and all that, as long you are a "citizen" of the European Union of course. But maybe I´m wrong about that, or maybe the UK simply has different rules. Because "they´re an island".

Anyhoo, issues pertaining to immigration often get muddled in debate and from reading posts here and elsewhere I´m assuming it´s a european rather than just a swedish phenomenon. Refugee politics get mixed with standard immigration, crime in immigrant heavy areas, even Islam and "multiculturalism" (whatever that actually is) gets mixed into the batter for some reason. It becomes a huge discussion about whether the modern liberal society and the european union should even exist or if we should revert back to a more conservative world view, without the european union. We´re all responsible for this to some extent.

 

[Esotera]

I think it would be completely fine to have uncontrolled migration with the EU, as long as there are numerical restrictions that are gradually eased off so we don't get a massive influx. Basically, the UK government need to take a lesson from how Valve managed Dota 2 keys.

I thought we already had free migration within the EU? Have I been wrong about that? Not free as in you can settle anywhere unconditionally. But free as in the only real restrictions are that you need to be able to provide for yourself or be admitted to a university in said country or other things along those lines. A member country can´t say "We´ll only take 1000 worker migrants" and then deny you a working "visa" even if you have a job in the country and all that, as long you are a "citizen" of the European Union of course. But maybe I´m wrong about that, or maybe the UK simply has different rules. Because "they´re an island".

Anyhoo, issues pertaining to immigration often get muddled in debate and from reading posts here and elsewhere I´m assuming it´s a european rather than just a swedish phenomenon. Refugee politics get mixed with standard immigration, crime in immigrant heavy areas, even Islam and "multiculturalism" (whatever that actually is) gets mixed into the batter for some reason. It becomes a huge discussion about whether the modern liberal society and the european union should even exist or if we should revert back to a more conservative world view, without the european union. We´re all responsible for this to some extent.

It's complicated, my understanding of it is that the states that have been in the EU for a long time have completely free movement, but more recent additions still have restrictions on how many people can migrate. Or at least that's true for the UK, we have restrictions that end at the beginning of next year, which is what all the fuss is about.

 

[DoPo]

I think it would be completely fine to have uncontrolled migration with the EU, as long as there are numerical restrictions that are gradually eased off so we don't get a massive influx. Basically, the UK government need to take a lesson from how Valve managed Dota 2 keys.

I thought we already had free migration within the EU? Have I been wrong about that? Not free as in you can settle anywhere unconditionally. But free as in the only real restrictions are that you need to be able to provide for yourself or be admitted to a university in said country or other things along those lines. A member country can´t say "We´ll only take 1000 worker migrants" and then deny you a working "visa" even if you have a job in the country and all that, as long you are a "citizen" of the European Union of course. But maybe I´m wrong about that, or maybe the UK simply has different rules. Because "they´re an island".

Anyhoo, issues pertaining to immigration often get muddled in debate and from reading posts here and elsewhere I´m assuming it´s a european rather than just a swedish phenomenon. Refugee politics get mixed with standard immigration, crime in immigrant heavy areas, even Islam and "multiculturalism" (whatever that actually is) gets mixed into the batter for some reason. It becomes a huge discussion about whether the modern liberal society and the european union should even exist or if we should revert back to a more conservative world view, without the european union. We´re all responsible for this to some extent.

It's complicated, my understanding of it is that the states that have been in the EU for a long time have completely free movement, but more recent additions still have restrictions on how many people can migrate. Or at least that's true for the UK, we have restrictions that end at the beginning of next year, which is what all the fuss is about.

Sotra - currently, if you're a Bulgarian or Romanian national, you can go in the UK, but you need a work permit to...well, work. But there are no restrictions for other older EU members (i.e., the ones who were there from before 1st of January 2007). The work permits are not exactly hard to get as in effort required but they do tend to take long. Assuming you fit the criteria, so if you already have employment there (kind of hard without a permit, but there are conditional and temporary ones) or you're a student (probably the easiest way to get a limited permit, though it's only for part-time work during term time and it runs out several months after you graduate), or you qualify as High Skilled Worker which is a bit weird but it works on points, so if you've finished higher education in the UK, if you've worked at least 12 consecutive months in the UK, etc - you tally up what you get and if you fit the minimum requirement, you can get an unlimited work permit. So these all take time, mostly. Or you can live in the UK for 5 years (or 3 if you marry to a British citizen), then apply for citizenship.

Starting next year, the work restrictions are removed, though, so anybody can come live and work in the UK. Since living without working is something not many people can do - I'm pretty sure you can't receive benefits if you cannot work in the UK.

 

[Angelous Wang]

The UK is shithole but if were Bulgarian I would immigrate too.

Seriously the company that I work for recently set a factory in Bulgara and I helped set up the payroll.

The average salary for a Bulgarian employee is £100-200 a month, compare that to my £1300+ every 4 weeks (and I work 8hr days to their 12h) and I would abandoning living in that country asap.

The only problem with them immigrating is they need to get immediate work or they will be broke coming over here fast with what little they have.

 

[Vegosiux]

So yeah, Germany is pretty much a paradise for criminals from all over the world. Bonus points because honest, hard working and fully integrated families from asia get deported for having made a formal error like 20 years ago while hardcore criminals from the middle east and eastern Europe can stay for "humanitarian reasons"...

See here's a thing I find rather interesting as I observe people. So many of them say that "immigrants are welcome as long as they obey the law and work for their lives just like everyone else" and that "only the criminals and bad apples should stay out"; and then not being willing to give anyone a chance to do the former *grin*

Captcha: I mustache why
HANDS OFF MY MUSTACHE! It took weeks to get where it is, sheesh!