The Ending Was Not ME3's Only Problem

[RJ 17]

And it would be Chipotle burritos, if any food product, that could get the Reapers to cease their rampage.

Burritos? I suppose forcing them all to need a restroom break would be one way to cease their rampage...

We're probably going to have to agree to disagree on the other stuff, though (well, and probably that one too!). While I don't deny that Shepard was super-important to getting everyone together, I also doubt everyone would have given up forces that could have been used to defend their own homes if they didn't think Shepard (and the Alliance/Council by extension)believed, deep down, that the Crucible could destroy (or maybe disable?) the Reapers, regardless of what it actually was going to do (if anything at all).

Granted, this is all assuming there's any credibility at all to a theory that the game's ending proved inaccurate... along with many other theories that were unfortunately better than what we got.

Not even the power of pancakes and chipotle burritos could save us from the disappointment we got from the hands of the rEApers.

All I've been doing since the beginning of our little conversation is showing you that you wouldn't have to wait for the end to have your theory disproved. This is the internet, we're on a forum, we're SUPPOSED to make asses out of ourselves by arguing for argument's sake! While the Crucible certainly does offer the hope of "We've got a plan other than just going kamikazi against the Reaper fleet", the Turians refused to help unless the Krogan helped them, the Krogan refused to help unless the genophage was cured, the Asari refused to help because they're a bunch of stuck up blue lesbians, the Salarians refused to help because they're a bunch of isolationist bastards, and the Quarians done gone went and attacked the Geth, locking up both of those fleets. It was Shepard that took the necessary steps to ensure that people signed on, if your theory were correct, simply mentioning "I Haz Crucible" would get the various races to help. Hell, the game could have been over at the very beginning when you speak with the Council and say "We need everyone to work together, we've got the plans for the Crucible, join us so we can win!" but the Council shoots Shepard down...[sub]god damn fucking Salarian councilor always shaking his head every time two people look at him....[/sub]

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

snippety snip

And it's so wrong to be an opportunist? Well... okay, maybe it is. But still, it's not unreasonable for a race to put its own interests first and foremost. Frankly, I'd find it to be pretty unrealistic for anybody to devote their best military and scientific personnel to a cause, even one as great as that, if they didn't believe they personally were going to in some way profit (beyond winning).

The Turians were already under attack, if they didn't get the support of a race that they believed could hold their own in battle, there would have been no home for their military to return to. The Asari and Humans were in the same situations, and couldn't offer support. The Batarians were mostly wiped out. The Salarians, with the exception of the STG, are often seen as weak in battle (and even then, STG is really more about sabotage than ground warfare). So who does that really leave that's in a position to actually be okay with devoting the troops and resources, and can be trusted to fight fiercely? The Krogans.

The Krogans can also definitely have a very understandable asterisk at the end of their agreement to join up and fight. It's likely that they would take heavy casualties defending the Crucible from the Reapers, which is devastating for a race with such low birth rates. The losses that they could potentially take might potentially doom the entire species if something wasn't done about the genophage. And is it unreasonable to assume that to a Krogan, something like this might be their only chance for a real long time (or maybe ever) to get the other races to change their mind about the genophage?

The Asari were in the same position as the Turians, obligated to help their own and sparing what they could for the Crucible - except that, like the Turians, they had nothing to spare. By the time they got their chance in the narrative to make the same sort of deal the Turians made, it was too late. Upon discovery that the only hope was working together with the whole Crucible shindig that was brewing... Asari fleet, reporting in.

Salarians... ehhhh.... they're jerks. Fuck 'em.

The Quarians didn't appear to even be all that aware of the Crucible project until Shepard and the Alliance came along to request support. They just happened to already be at war with the Geth at the time. Notably, Geth that were under the direct influence of the Reapers. Note that by helping the Quarians against the Geth, you're actively removing a large war resource from the Reapers (or converting that resource to fight alongside everyone else), so it only makes sense for that situation to be resolved before devoting full support. The Quarians getting their home planet back was merely a perk.

Shepard was the deal-maker to sign everyone on, which is why I absolutely believe that Shepard was important, but the Crucible existed as the MacGuffin to make the races believe that they weren't just wasting their time and diverting resources that could have helped their own people for nothing. If the Alliance didn't have the Crucible under construction and the hope that it would save the day, I think Shepard would have gotten significantly different responses from the various races.

And really, the Crucible plan is really the only thing that gets anyone to initially give Shepard a second glance. If Hackett hadn't interrupted the Normandy's trip to the Citadel with a detour to Mars, it's likely that Shepard would have only been able to drum up light (if any) reinforcements for Earth, since everyone would have been busy setting up their own defenses.

And yeah... I've got nothing against pointless arguing. It's a slow day at my office. Just watching that clock tick, and tick, and tick away until it's time to get hammered.

 

[Ascarus]

while this is mostly true,

Spoiler

if you want the couple second end shot of shepherd taking in a breath

after choosing red, green or blue, you need an EMS > 5000 (4000?). either way that number cannot be reached without participating in the MP game.

fuck that bullshit. MP participation should never impact the SP campaign in any way. period.

Like I said, I had 6500 war assets and finished the game before I ever touched the multiplayer, so I know for a fact it's 100% possible to beat the game with the required amount of EMS without playing the multiplayer once. You just have to import a game from at least ME2 to have enough.

But if you ask me, if you jump into the third game of a trilogy without playing the first two, you aren't allowed to complain about it not catering to your every whim.

!?!

How did you get that many war assets without going online? I've imported my save from the very first game and the most I can get is roughly 3100!

it cannot be done without either a modified coalesced.bin file or participating in the MP game. you can get a TOTAL MILITARY STRENGTH (TMS) well over 5000 very easily. BUT your READINESS RATING will be stuck at 50% unless you participate in the MP. As such any value you have for TMS is multiplied by .5 and that is your EFFECTIVE MILITARY STRENGTH (EMS). you CANNOT get over 5000 EMS in the single player game w/o multi-player participation or an editted coalesced.bin file.

even if you import saved characters from ME1 and ME2 from the very beginning and stay paragon the entire way. there simply aren't enough military units in ME3 to recruit to get there to get to the required 5000 EMS.

officially i don't think bioware has ever confirmed or denied this, but data miners have shown what is available in the game. if you are interested here is a pretty comprehensive thread about this on bioware's forums -- hell it is all spelled out in the first post:

http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/323/index/10481662/1

 

[Erttheking]

Meh, minor problems that didn't really bug me.

I'd explain why I disagree but RJ17 already did that pretty well.

 

[RJ 17]

What do we snip apart from snippage? MOAR SNIPPAGE!

That's certainly a mouthful considering the brevity of my post that prompted it, but I guess you're just better explaining the details of your theory.

The Batarians were hit right out of the gate, this is why the Alpha Relay had to be destroyed, so yeah, they weren't coming to anyone's help to begin with. However after wiping those bastard Batarians out and stocking up on Cannibals, the Reapers headed straight for the Sol system to take out the biggest threat presented to them: humanity (FUCK YEAH FOR THE HUMANS! ). The Turians, Asari, and Salarians hadn't been hit yet. Well, the Turians were the next target after Earth. But there's no such excuse for the Asari and Salarians. Both those races know specifically that the Crucible is being built, and yet they don't help out. They both take isolationist approaches "We're gonna beef up our own defenses rather than pitch in to help your gamble."

Of course there's going to be a lot of "We gotta look out for ourselves" mentalities to break through...and that's what Shepard does by brokering the legendary alliances that he does. The turians vow to help Shepard not because he's got the Crucible plans, but only if he can manage to get the Krogan to help the situation on Palaven (while Earth still burns). The Krogan - grateful for being cured - vow to help you just for helping them out. The Quarians - having just regained their homeworld only to have it threatened once more - are willing to fight to protect what they've just won. The Geth - having gained full intelligence AND free will - know the Reapers must be destroyed and join up as well. The asari - seeing that they're officially the odd-man-out (so to speak) only offer their aid once Thessia is in the direct line of fire. Think how easy the game would have been had the asari councilor approached Shepard after the council meeting at the beginning of the game and said "Shepard...we cannot commit our fleets to you...but there is something on Thessia that you should really take a look at. It might help with this Prothean device of yours..." At which point Shepard could go to Thessia BEFORE it's utterly destroyed, acquire the Prothean VI right then and there, and apparently that would really be all they needed to help build the Crucible and get the Catalyst.

 

[Tuesday Night Fever]

Snippity-doo-dah, Snippity-ay

Just because the Crucible was designed specifically to be a huge undertaking to bring everyone together, doesn't necessarily mean it would succeed. If a race or races wanted to remain isolationists, it's not like the Crucible would shoot out rainbow happy rays of cooperation (maybe?) that would sway those races to join the fight. It merely existed as an object to give people hope that working together toward a single goal as a unified force could potentially defeat the Reapers once and for all.

Shepard was the agent who got the ball rolling, but without his (her?) diehard belief in the Crucible, it likely would have been far harder to convince everyone to leave their planets and their people behind. The Crucible gave everyone the hope that if they stood their ground in the Sol system, they'd never have to fight the battle on their own streets. If they didn't believe in the Crucible, for all they knew they'd be sending their forces into the grinder only to leave their homes defenseless.

There's also the argument about Shepard and possible bias. Assuming there's no Crucible, why should anyone have gone along with Shepard's pleas for support? Wouldn't he (she?) just be seen as a man (woman?) acting out of desperation to save his (her?) home? How would his (her?) pleas be any different than the ones from every other planet being invaded?

Shepard: Send your fleets to save Earth!
Turians: Fuck you! Send your fleets to save Palaven!

If anything, given the galaxy's stance toward humanity as a whole, it's likely that we would have just been thrown under the bus and left to fend for ourselves, to delay the Reapers long enough for everyone else to get their own defenses prepared (since humanity's defenses clearly weren't).

Oh, and obligatory follow-up FUCK YEAH, HUMANITY!

Edit:
And woohoo! Thank you for an amusing way to pass the time during a boring day at work, but now its time to get hammered! Yay!

 

[Doneeee]

Oh another me3 thread. I think I'm going to go hide until they're all gone.

 

[Emiscary]

Oh another me3 thread. I think I'm going to go hide until they're all gone.

If you could do so quietly I'm sure everyone would appreciate it.

 

[Doneeee]

Oh another me3 thread. I think I'm going to go hide until they're all gone.

If you could do so quietly I'm sure everyone would appreciate it.

'quietly hides' Got it.

 

[Thoraxe]

This topic is a joke. Your problems are trivial and read like fangirl fury. There are many problems with the game, you picked the least important ones.

 

[Emiscary]

I'm a douchebag.*

* It's not what you wrote, but it's what anyone who sees it will read. I say this for your benefit.

 

[Scow2]

I'm a douchebag.*

* It's not what you wrote, but it's what anyone who sees it will read. I say this for your benefit.

Especially considering he made his own list of silly, pathetic complaints about the game that he felt warranted a unique topic.

 

[RJ 17]

Snippin' in the mornin', snippin' in the evenin', snippin' at supper time!

I still just don't think the Crucible was as big a factor as you're making it to be (which is what we're debating at this point ). I think the "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" mentality would still prevail.

Shepard seeks out the Turians because he/she needs their fleet to help take-back Earth. And rightfully, the Turians say "We're not helping Earth since Palavin is still fucked. However...if you could find a way to help unfuck Palavin *cough*KROGAN*cough* maybe we could send our fleets to help you." The Krogan would sign on out of their eternal gratefulness for curing the Genophage (or at least making them think you did) and because they now see a future for their people to fight for.

All I'm saying is that I think that while having a plan with the Crucible certain does sweeten the deal, each of the races - considering what Shepard has done in for them in the past - would still have joined the cause even without the Crucible.

Then they plug in the Crucible and find out it's just a giant radio box that broadcasts "Please leave us alone..." on Reaper frequencies, politely asking them to leave.

 

[Freechoice]

...Kasumi had no valid reasons not to join you...

You didn't have the priiiiiiiiiiiize.

Whining about not wanting to go on an other suicide mission does not constitute a valid reason.

She would have gone if you had had Jacob.

Did you not get the joke or did you just want to argue?

Captcha:

no dice


BOOSH

 

[Goofguy]

...Kasumi had no valid reasons not to join you...

You didn't have the priiiiiiiiiiiize.

Whining about not wanting to go on an other suicide mission does not constitute a valid reason.

She would have gone if you had had Jacob.

Did you not get the joke or did you just want to argue?

Captcha:

no dice


BOOSH

I'm not above admitting that it went completely over my head.

 

[Freechoice]

...Kasumi had no valid reasons not to join you...

You didn't have the priiiiiiiiiiiize.

Whining about not wanting to go on an other suicide mission does not constitute a valid reason.

She would have gone if you had had Jacob.

Did you not get the joke or did you just want to argue?

Captcha:

no dice


BOOSH

I'm not above admitting that it went completely over my head.

Well you deserve a gold star for not being like the rest of the dispshits on this forum. Good on ya.

 

[AD-Stu]

Which human got the council seat did not matter at all, even though over half the story was based on the human councilor betraying the Citadel. (I would love to see what that mission was like if Anderson was a Councilor)
What you did with the Collector base didn't matter because Cerberus is the main bad guy no matter what.

I actually didn't mind this one - after all, if you stop to think about it for even a second, Anderson was a horrible choice for Councilor (he has zero qualifications for it, he never wanted the job, and condemning a solider like that to a life of politics and desk work is just... cruel) and the only thing worse than that is the idea that humanity's top representative to the other species of the galaxy could be chosen largely on the say-so of a soldier - even if that soldier is a Spectre.

TBH, I think this is largely a result of Bioware regretting giving us a choice in the first place. As for what that mission would have been like if Anderson had somehow been Councillor, I think it would've been basically the same. You might've even still gotten to shoot Udina, he probably would have organised the whole thing from his post as Anderson's deputy.

Whether or not you were against the Quarians attacking the Geth didn't matter. (Here's a little math Admiral Garal and Xen are pro war. Tali and Koris are against it. That means Raan supports the war? That means Raan voted against Tali? That doesn't make sense.)

Once again, I actually think this is a good thing. Seriously, if there's an idea that's even sillier than having a soldier making political appointments, it's the idea that one soldier having a 30-second conversation with a couple of politicians could have any influence whatsoever on whether or not an entire species goes to war.

I know, gaming and suspension of disbelief and stuff but seriously, the idea is stupid. The quarians were always going to make up their own minds about that one.

Not to mention a bunch of characters that didn't get any face time. Kal'Regar, Emily Wong, Gianna Parasini, Morinth, The Krogan who wanted the fish, anyone from Ferros. and many more.

TBH, a lot of that stuff felt really tacked on in ME2 - meeting Gianna or the slaver again, or Nassana Dantius just happening to be the bad guy in Thane's mission. Let's be honest, there was no good reason for most of them to be in ME2, let alone this game. I think the way they were handled in ME3 was probably about right.

 

[AD-Stu]

I'm not above admitting that it went completely over my head.

I think the suggestion is that Kasumi was obviously quite... erm... keen on Jacob, and probably would have come along if he had have been there.

There's a perfectly valid reason why Kasumi (and indeed, half the cast of ME2) can't join you in ME3 though - aside from all their other issues, a lot of them (Kasumi, Miranda, Jacob, Thane I think, probably Zaeed too, definitely Morinth if you chose her) are wanted criminals and the Normandy is an Alliance ship again, so they have to take that stuff kind of seriously. I guess you could have them pardoned, but it still probably wouldn't sit well as they were wanted for much worse stuff than, say, Ken and Gabby.

 

[Goofguy]

I'm not above admitting that it went completely over my head.

I think the suggestion is that Kasumi was obviously quite... erm... keen on Jacob, and probably would have come along if he had have been there.

There's a perfectly valid reason why Kasumi (and indeed, half the cast of ME2) can't join you in ME3 though - aside from all their other issues, a lot of them (Kasumi, Miranda, Jacob, Thane I think, probably Zaeed too, definitely Morinth if you chose her) are wanted criminals and the Normandy is an Alliance ship again, so they have to take that stuff kind of seriously. I guess you could have them pardoned, but it still probably wouldn't sit well as they were wanted for much worse stuff than, say, Ken and Gabby.

Oh I know that Kasumi had a thing for Jacob, I would find it pretty shallow if that were her reason to join/not join Shepard.

And your point about the ME2 squadmates' past transgressions is irrelevant. Once Miranda's sister was saved and her father stopped, she joined the war with little to no issue (confirmed by her final words to Shepard on Earth). Jacob and Kasumi both became part of the Crucible project so clearly they were trusted enough by Hackett. Thane was dying so that was a moot point. Hackett was thankful to have the Blue Suns, Blood Pack and Eclipse mercs helping out so wouldn't Zaeed (one of the founders of the Blue Suns, btw) also be useful?

The whole war was pretty much Hackett trusting Shepard's judgement and Shepard would gladly have taken a lot of his old crew back. The only thing stopping some of them were their crappy excuses. When faced with the possible extinction of many of the galaxy's races, I think the Alliance would look the other way when it came to past wrongdoings of certain characters if they could prove to be an asset in stopping the Reapers directly or indirectly.

 

[AD-Stu]

*shrugs*

By the time Miranda redeems herself and gets right with the Alliance it's basically the end of the game though. Ditto Zaeed, and you don't get to Jacob until pretty late in the piece either.

The other thing you've got to remember (about Kasumi in particular) is that somebody needs to foot her bill. She was a mercenary in ME2 and Cerberus was paying her to risk her life on a suicide mission. I think it's perfectly reasonable for her not to want to go on another one if she's not getting paid

Those are all plot reasons but let's be honest, the real reason for it is there were too many damn squad members in ME2 and Bioware made a deliberate decision to cut them down for ME3. The fact that they cut them down and there's still two or three I almost never used speaks volumes for how pointless it would have been to add even more.