a person with the name "Mad World" is defending religion.Mad World said:
WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED, PEOPLE!?
and yes, I payed attention to your defense. your "defense" is HORRIBLY flawed.
The escapist, I need your help.
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WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU NEED, PEOPLE!?
and yes, I payed attention to your defense. your "defense" is HORRIBLY flawed.
So how is it not petty or sadistic?Mad World said:
I get that the reasoning may be beyond our comprehension or whatever, but in your eyes, does that not seem slightly petty or sadistic to you?
Like say if we take it to the human level: You get a letter in the post saying to paint a yellow smily face on your door in the next 3 days. You don't do it and then are kidnapped, plugged into a machine that ensures you will never die and tortured without reprieve. Billions of years pass, and all you know is that it's but a flicker compared to the amount of time you'll need to endure yet.
You could say that they was clearly warned to paint a face on the door. But that's kinda ignoring the elephant in the room here.
If you aren't satisfied with Mad World's answers, try me. What's your big deal in this issue again?Z(ombie)fan said:
That is perhaps the most flawed analogy I've ever read. And I'm in debate, so that's saying something.Danzaivar said:
A better, but still flawed, analogy would be "Paint a yellow smiley face on your door within three days, or be tortured for the rest of eternity." Oh, and it's from the CIA. Would you take that more seriously?
This is, again, ignoring the bigger issue, and that is the fact the proverbial yellow smiley face(accepting Christ) only comes into the picture to help us. Have you actually read The Bible? Because I get the feeling you either didn't read it, or didn't read it to understand, only to criticize. The entire reason for everything we have to do, can be summed up in "our ancestors were morons." See, God gave out this handy little thing called free will. You know what people do when they have free will? They abuse it for everything it's worth. Let me pose to you a question: Say you have children in a house you built with your own hands, painstakingly over the years. Now, in this house you impose only one rule: Do not jump on the furniture. Next thing you know, you come home from work to find your loving children trampling all over your furniture, despite that one warning. What do you do? Just, let it go? Of course you don't. You punish them, and tell them don't do it again.
Now imagine that instead of jumping on the furniture, your children just doomed themselves and the rest of humanity, most of whom don't even exist yet, to an eternal struggle between right and wrong. They have created every liar, thief, murder, and rapist who will ever walk this Earth. What's worse, you knew, YOU KNEW, that this was going to happen, but you couldn't stop it. Because if you did, they wouldn't be your children anymore. They would just be servants. Nay, not servants, but slaves. In that one act of selfishness, you would become worse than all the evil their actions have created. However, you can warn them. You can tell them to fight against that evil. Against the pervasive force that now constantly tries to destroy them. You can give them a set of instructions, outlining what to avoid: Killing, coveting, stealing, lying, all these things they can know to avoid!
But they don't. They can't. The damage is too great, and too tempting. So you make the ultimate sacrifice, and give your own son, who is in essence a part of yourself, over to death. And as he lives life, he does no wrong. When he dies, as a blameless victim, he takes the place for all the rest of your children. For the injustice wrought against your son by death and Hell, you get to demand payment in the form of a pardon for all your other children. All they have to do, is accept.
That's how and why the Christian salvation system works. Now, let's take a deeper look at Hell:
Everyone assumes that's Hell's torments will be just like our torments on Earth, only worse. However, I would contest this. I prefer the theory put forth by, of all people, Neil Gaiman. The greatest torments of Hell are wrought by our own hands, upon the realization of everything we've done, and the fact that we have separated ourselves, for eternity, from God. That is the true terror of Hell, and nothing on Earth can never begin to compare to it.
Hope that clears things up.
Coming from a Christian believer:
Sometimes a while after you're happy, but not as happy as before because you see the changes that need to be made to live your life with these new beliefs. Plus, the sobered attitude is pretty common a short time after most people have their conversion moment. Super happy with the feeling they've found, sad when it starts to fade. Hard to describe, call me crazy with your friend. Hopefully ya'll will stay close and that the intervention doesn't cause any undue tension.
Sometimes a while after you're happy, but not as happy as before because you see the changes that need to be made to live your life with these new beliefs. Plus, the sobered attitude is pretty common a short time after most people have their conversion moment. Super happy with the feeling they've found, sad when it starts to fade. Hard to describe, call me crazy with your friend. Hopefully ya'll will stay close and that the intervention doesn't cause any undue tension.
the GROUP part of it, it feels so... Cultish. not to mention how the people feel soulless and unhappy.No one who has ever defended it ever given a proper argument for it. It feels empty, and support of it gives an impression of utter insanity.TheMaddestHatter said:
Wow, really? There must be some pathetic Christians in your area, mate. I don't know a single Christian who feels "soul-less and unhappy" because of their faith, in fact quite the opposite. Now, that being said, there are bad Christians, just like there are bad everything else. But we aren't all just some cult. For instance, I don't even go to my church's youth group, not because it's a cult, but because I find my faith to be a personal issue that I like to handle outside of groups. There are some people who treat it like a cult, but the same can be said about, well, anything. Take main-stream science, for instance: How often do you see dissenting opinions accepted there? Someone even whispers "young earth creationist" and everyone flies off the handle. Why is that? There is too much hate for it just to be "I don't agree with the idea". Just something to think about.Z(ombie)fan said:
I think you've spent too much time around the so-called "super-Christians", people who take everything to an incredible extreme and freak out at the slightest supposed offense. Those people? They aren't Christians. They are just douche-bags masquerading under a religion, and they exist everywhere.
tell her that if she has enough faith she can jump off a tall building and god will catch her and set her on the ground unharmed
if she believes you and jumps, problem solved
if she says you're crazy move on to this
Christianity says incest is bad, but god made Adam and Eve, and they had kids but then what?
then after Noah and his family?
while she's stumbling around "god moves in mysterious ways" say
"why do bad things happen to good Christians?"
keep presenting her with inconsistencies with the Christian religion
like dinosaurs, or human sex drives vs marriage,
until she snaps out of it
but there's a human debug code that should work, if the logic doesn't
the button combination is left nostril, right temple, click both their nipples at once, clap your hands 3 times and yell "Ostrich"
that one's worked on people. I've used it
if she believes you and jumps, problem solved
if she says you're crazy move on to this
Christianity says incest is bad, but god made Adam and Eve, and they had kids but then what?
then after Noah and his family?
while she's stumbling around "god moves in mysterious ways" say
"why do bad things happen to good Christians?"
keep presenting her with inconsistencies with the Christian religion
like dinosaurs, or human sex drives vs marriage,
until she snaps out of it
but there's a human debug code that should work, if the logic doesn't
the button combination is left nostril, right temple, click both their nipples at once, clap your hands 3 times and yell "Ostrich"
that one's worked on people. I've used it
I don't particularly want to put words in God's mouth. I personally would have had mercy on the theoretical Buddhist if I were God, so long as he hadn't publicly rejected and attacked Christianity, but who knows what God truly thinks?Mad World said:
(This coming from a "Christian Deist")
1 of 3 things happened:
1: Brainwashing, but not some complex form of it. Just the simple "Since everyone around me is doing it, I am pressured into doing it"; Something Hitler did in his early speeches. All you gotta do is wait for the stuff to get out of her system. If it's persistent, I'd call for an Intervention.
2: She really had a religious experience at that camp. If that's the case, nothing you can do will change her mind. Sorry, your stuck with a Religious Nut Job who's pretty much withdrawn.
3: This is all a sick joke she's doing just to keep her parents happy but she's worried about getting caught. If that's the case, look for subtle signs that signal this as a joke. Then confront her on it.
1 of 3 things happened:
1: Brainwashing, but not some complex form of it. Just the simple "Since everyone around me is doing it, I am pressured into doing it"; Something Hitler did in his early speeches. All you gotta do is wait for the stuff to get out of her system. If it's persistent, I'd call for an Intervention.
2: She really had a religious experience at that camp. If that's the case, nothing you can do will change her mind. Sorry, your stuck with a Religious Nut Job who's pretty much withdrawn.
3: This is all a sick joke she's doing just to keep her parents happy but she's worried about getting caught. If that's the case, look for subtle signs that signal this as a joke. Then confront her on it.
One of two things could have happened. She actually converted free will and all, or she was brainwashed.
No - we need to be punished; simply destroying us completely is not enough. Those who deny the Lord deserve permanent torment.Danzaivar said:
I know that it sounds harsh, but it's the truth.
My name has nothing to do with it; if I can recall correctly, I chose my name from the song "Mad World." Also, it sounds cool.Z(ombie)fan said:
Anyway, how is it "horribly flawed"?
It's not petty or sadistic because it is God's Will, and He is perfect. As I've said, those who deny God must be punished.Danzaivar said:
I used to think to myself, "Is that really fair?" But I know that God would never do anything unjust.
Humans beings don't have the right to decide who deserves to endure torture for all eternity; only God does. So I would consider that hypothetical situation to be unfair.
Like God, we share good morals, but because of the original sin, we also possess desires for evil. That is because of what we did.kikon9 said:
God is perfect, but we are not; therefore, some people do not accept God's Will as fair or good.
You don't need to put words in God's mouth; He has clearly stated that those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour will perish (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).lacktheknack said:
God will not permit non-believers into Heaven.
Romans 10:14 states: "How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"Ironic Pirate said:
This specific verse - I think - not only applies to people who have never heard of Christ; it also applies to babies. As for kids very young: there is no way to be sure, but as stated in Genesis 18:25, "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" We can rely on God to always make the right choice, so we have no need to worry.
To put it bluntly, judging by the manner in which your friend types it appears as though she isn't the sharpest spoon in the drawer. Such people are often easily manipulated, and religion has brainwashing the dull down to a science.
Im refering my Impression of them. I make decisions off logic, but religion is a matter of spirituality, and the vibe I get is... I can read peoples expression very easily, and quite frankly, the people in the churches ive been to were wearng fake smiles. and no, Im not refering to the ones who brainwash their kids, even the light hearted semi-religous ones seem saddened by themselves. It disturbs me, greatly. I've had thirteen years to think about it, and thats the conlusion Ive come to.TheMaddestHatter said:
It's known that those camps are no good...
But, I find most beliefs, especially those pertaining religion to be healthy. Give it time, she should eventually ween herself off the original rush after she sees some crushing real life.
xD
But seriously, just give it time.
But, I find most beliefs, especially those pertaining religion to be healthy. Give it time, she should eventually ween herself off the original rush after she sees some crushing real life.
xD
But seriously, just give it time.