The Failure of 'Dark' Fantasy

[Requia]

DA:O is straight up high fantasy. It's much more like D&D. Almost completely unambiguous morality - pretty much uses the lawful/neutral/chaotic + good/neutral/evil system. The game gives you plenty of moral choices for sure, but when you're evil you're evil, when you're good you're good, there's really no grey area or questions about what path you're taking. Big spells, gallant heroes, extreme racial profiling, nondescript hordes of purely evil enemies bent on the destruction of the whole world and only you to save it etc. Very much high fantasy.

DA:O is textbook black and grey. You are constantly pushed to make choices that would be terrible in a different situation for the sake of fighting something even worse. The 'evil' choices are born out of desperation to stop the blight, and even the best intentioned character is still participating in the practice of tricking people into committing suicide, whether slow or fast, in order to get ahold of better fighters against the darkspawn.

 

[Fox12]

It's rather hard to find true "dark" fantasy. There is always a method of how it should be done, how far one should go, and the manner in which one is introduced to it. Berserk always calls to me as a perfect example of dark fantasy. There is a beauty in how some scenes are played out, the grittiness of war, the savagery of man, but it's not always black and white. There is always shades of gray that seem to coat the world they live in. Heroes can be darkened into villains, and villains can appear like saviors. There is always a disturbing quality about our world, and that's what is shown in dark fantasy RPGs. That's the hardest part to show though, because we always want an idealistic, or pragmatic view of fantasy. The world we wish for fantasy to be, or the world we believe it must be. A good fantasy world should be able to demonstrate both, and show us the unpredictability that the world we live in has. :T

I like Dark Souls for it's attempt in Dark Fantasy, and it works perfectly.

A number of people have brought up Berserk, though I haven't seen it. I have not played Dark Souls, either. Could you elaborate on what you like about them, and what makes them differ from games and shows that use visceral aspects in a misguided way?

Yeah, my problems with "dark" fantasy are not really generic, but rather that it is often symptomatic of a deeper laziness on the artistic level. If there is some dark fantasy that is truly done well, I wouldn't mind seeing it or playing it.

Berserk is a unique story, in that it's a fantasy story that feels very grounded in reality. It acknowledges that, yes, bad things happen, and sometimes there's no good reason for them, but there's good in the world as well. Thematically, it's very complex. A large part of the plot deals with a very infamous scene in the story, one that plays out like a classic Greek tragedy, and how the main character deals with the horrible event in question. The horrible event in question is led up to flawlessly, and when it happens it's quite powerful. At first the story seems like its in danger of becoming another Game of Thrones plot, where one horrible thing happens after another, but that's when Berserk reveals its ace in the hole. The main story isn't really about the horrible event in question, but is instead about how the character responds to what happened, and how a person recovers from a tragedy and learns to care again. It's almost like a deconstruction of Game of Thrones, except it's actually older. It's also a deconstruction of the typical macho fantasy hero. The philosophy and plot are deeper than they first appear, and the pacing unfolds the story slowly, so you have stick with the slow opening.

It reminds me of Watchmen, in that Watchmens central theme was actually about how most people are actually good at heart, despite all the bad in the world. It was, ironically, a deconstruction of all the "dark and gritty" comics it helped to inspire. Berserk isn't dark because it relies on shock value, like Game of Thrones, it actually has something to say.

If you're interested in Berserk it is an anime and manga series (don't let that be a turn off). You can find the episodes on youtube and the DVD for sell online. I will warn you that the show ends on the single darkest part of the story, however, and is not necessarily a fair representation of the whole story.

 

[Fox12]

Also, at the risk of being flamed to death, I'll throw my lot in with InfinityX. Game of Thrones and The Witcher both have a 14 year olds understanding of sex. It isn't handled with maturity, intellect, or respect. It's basically a reward. You perform certain in game actions, and your character is rewarded with multiple one night stands. The first game was even worse, as it gave you collectible cards based on the women you seduces. It's a juveniles understanding of sexuality. The game thinks that, because it has sex and violence, it's "mature," but people need to understand the difference between explicit and mature. Disneys Hunchback of Notre Dame was mature, despite being G rated. The Witcher and Game of Thrones were explicit.

 

[endtherapture]

Also, at the risk of being flamed to death, I'll throw my lot in with InfinityX. Game of Thrones and The Witcher both have a 14 year olds understanding of sex. It isn't handled with maturity, intellect, or respect. It's basically a reward. You perform certain in game actions, and your character is rewarded with multiple one night stands. The first game was even worse, as it gave you collectible cards based on the women you seduces. It's a juveniles understanding of sexuality. The game thinks that, because it has sex and violence, it's "mature," but people need to understand the difference between explicit and mature. Disneys Hunchback of Notre Dame was mature, despite being G rated. The Witcher and Game of Thrones were explicit.

Can you give me an example of a game that does sex well then?

 

[keosegg]

Fantasy needs to step away from the medieval setting all together.

And go where?

Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, and maybe dragons are a well trodden and boring path for some. I get that. I don't think they really enriched the setting of the Dragon Age games all that much. But where are we going beside the medieval era?

Other nations. The ancient mythology of the various African nations are replete with novel concepts that I guarantee no one has ever heard of before.

The mythology of the indigenous peoples of Australia, Canada and the U.S. are also filled with interesting concepts.

There is no damn limit.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

Also, at the risk of being flamed to death, I'll throw my lot in with InfinityX. Game of Thrones and The Witcher both have a 14 year olds understanding of sex. It isn't handled with maturity, intellect, or respect. It's basically a reward. You perform certain in game actions, and your character is rewarded with multiple one night stands. The first game was even worse, as it gave you collectible cards based on the women you seduces. It's a juveniles understanding of sexuality. The game thinks that, because it has sex and violence, it's "mature," but people need to understand the difference between explicit and mature. Disneys Hunchback of Notre Dame was mature, despite being G rated. The Witcher and Game of Thrones were explicit.

It's a cold realistic world, it isn't the idealized fantasy given to us by suburban families and taught at school but the real world where debauchery and sin happens often.

 

[Fox12]

Also, at the risk of being flamed to death, I'll throw my lot in with InfinityX. Game of Thrones and The Witcher both have a 14 year olds understanding of sex. It isn't handled with maturity, intellect, or respect. It's basically a reward. You perform certain in game actions, and your character is rewarded with multiple one night stands. The first game was even worse, as it gave you collectible cards based on the women you seduces. It's a juveniles understanding of sexuality. The game thinks that, because it has sex and violence, it's "mature," but people need to understand the difference between explicit and mature. Disneys Hunchback of Notre Dame was mature, despite being G rated. The Witcher and Game of Thrones were explicit.

It's a cold realistic world, it isn't the idealized fantasy given to us by suburban families and taught at school but the real world where debauchery and sin happens often.

I would have to disagree with you there. It's basically fanservice, and it's completely unrealistic.

None of the sex scenes in The Witcher were particularly believable. In fact, they were somewhat laughable. Again, just because a game has nudity doesn't mean its "mature." Incidentally, the sex scenes add nothing to the plot, and their sole reason for existing is to stroke the players ego.

Game of Thrones is worse, since the sex scene actually make the text worse, and leave me scratching my head in confusion. None of the scenes contribute to the plot in a meaningful way. 90% of them are simply fanservice. Did we need to see 14 year old Dani have sex with her maid servant, for instance? It was never implied that she was bisexual, the scene came out of nowhere. It also undermined the fact that she was supposed to be grieving her family. One could argue that she was always bisexual, in which case Martin had a unique opportunity to explore a bisexual relationship in a feudal European society. But he didn't do that. It was basically like a 14 year old boy deciding his story needed a hot lesbian sex scene in it. You want sex in your story? That's completely fine. You want it to be explicit? Totally fine. But it better impact the story, and it better have a reason for existing.

Berserk is way more explicit than either Witcher or GoT, in both sexuality and gore, yet it gets away with it. Why? Because it's handled in a believable, mature manner, and because it's (almost) always plot relevant. I'm not against sexuality, or even explicit sexuality. I'm just tired of bad fiction shoe horning pornography into their work, and then pretending that their "mature" for it.

 

[Fox12]

Fantasy needs to step away from the medieval setting all together.

And go where?

Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, and maybe dragons are a well trodden and boring path for some. I get that. I don't think they really enriched the setting of the Dragon Age games all that much. But where are we going beside the medieval era?

Other nations. The ancient mythology of the various African nations are replete with novel concepts that I guarantee no one has ever heard of before.

The mythology of the indigenous peoples of Australia, Canada and the U.S. are also filled with interesting concepts.

There is no damn limit.

I strongly agree with this statement. It would be interesting to see more urban fantasy, or more work like The Sandman, which I'm presently reading. Medieval fantasy still has a lot of room to grow as well, you just have to be creative. The secret is to mix genres, I think.

Out of curiosity, do you have any examples of the fiction mentioned above? I would be interested in studying fiction from around the world.

 

[Trinab]

My definition of 'Dark Fantasy' has always been in alignment with what Wikipedia and TV Tropes have been, Fantasy with horror elements, such as shocking portrayals of blood/gore, and darker elements, such as depraved sorcerers, truly evil demons, the unpleasant aspects of human sexuality, and whatnot.

In that regard, Dragon Age: Origins certainly tried to approach that, compared to the squeaky clean look and feel of contemporary RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights, Eastern RPGs, Elder scrolls, and whatnot. Whether it's more 'mature' is an entirely different argument. Frankly I think Dragon Age could have gone a lot darker, the closest they got was how the Darkspawn Mothers were made. On the other hand, they were restrained by their rating, true Dark Fantasy would totally have gotten them a 17+ rating, impacting sales.

So yes, I would say that they failed to be a true Dark Fantasy, instead sitting uncomfortably in the middle of High and Dark. From the look of Dragon Age 2, and the upcoming sequel, I would say they are drifting towards High Fantasy as the overall tone. I frankly don't think there will be a good Dark Fantasy video game that is able to take the genre to it's full potential. It's too hard to chase the high demographic groups and really delve into the truly horrifying fantastical.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

My definition of 'Dark Fantasy' has always been in alignment with what Wikipedia and TV Tropes have been, Fantasy with horror elements, such as shocking portrayals of blood/gore, and darker elements, such as depraved sorcerers, truly evil demons, the unpleasant aspects of human sexuality, and whatnot.

In that regard, Dragon Age: Origins certainly tried to approach that, compared to the squeaky clean look and feel of contemporary RPGs such as Neverwinter Nights, Eastern RPGs, Elder scrolls, and whatnot. Whether it's more 'mature' is an entirely different argument. Frankly I think Dragon Age could have gone a lot darker, the closest they got was how the Darkspawn Mothers were made. On the other hand, they were restrained by their rating, true Dark Fantasy would totally have gotten them a 17+ rating, impacting sales.

So yes, I would say that they failed to be a true Dark Fantasy, instead sitting uncomfortably in the middle of High and Dark. From the look of Dragon Age 2, and the upcoming sequel, I would say they are drifting towards High Fantasy as the overall tone. I frankly don't think there will be a good Dark Fantasy video game that is able to take the genre to it's full potential. It's too hard to chase the high demographic groups and really delve into the truly horrifying fantastical.

Dragon Age 2 was pure dark fantasy, it was one man or woman's hopeless struggle to keep his family and friends afloat in a city doomed to chaos. But to be fair, NVN and Baldur's Gate handle the whorehouse scenario better than some Dark Fantasy games do, IIRC, BG2 had you saving a mage's lover from a brothel, the Brothels in most dark fantasy do feel more like "distractions" then places where there is at least subplot.

 

[Serioli]

While it may be trending in computer games and more popular media, it has always existed and I personally believe that it is more the popular media focus on 'dark' and 'realistic' that makes it more noticeable. As others have pointed out, it is advancement of technology and a lessening of censorship that has helped with this.

Could DA:O have been released in 1999? Possibly, but on top of looking terrible it would likely have got a mature rating, if not banned.
Could they have released the 'A Game of Thrones' series at a similar time to the book (1996 as per wiki)? Absolutely, but it would not exist in its current state.

Spoiler

Some personal examples:
Is/was D&D a high fantasy power trip of elves & dwarves & magic or can it contain a 'so edgy' look at politics, warfare and the implications of slash and burn tactics or the effects of high level magics on people? (Insti-death on the battlefield, PTSD and other traumas afterwards.) (1974) Also, sanctioned edginess with the release of the 'Book of Vile Darkness' (2002)

Is Shadowrun about big guns, super-cool implants and flashy magic; standing up for the little guy, taking no shit and sticking it to 'the man' or can it look at drug (equivalent) addiction, ecological disasters, businesses writing laws and the psychology of terrorism? (On the receiving and performing side.) (1989)

Was (2nd Ed) Dark Sun a high powered munchkin game designed to force you into buying supplements or a new setting for an existing system which forced a re-think of magic and existing races, a 'survivor' mentality because resources were always scarce in a destroyed world and an exploration of what it meant to be property? (Beyond 'this is hard work' and 'OMG sex slave lol') (1991)

Fantasy is simply breaking into the public eye and will inevitably go through some teething troubles and no doubt some terrible experiments; just look at films, tv series, comics & music now versus 'the past' in ten year increments...

I guess I'm just asking/suggesting that you don't just write off 'dark' fantasy completely because of a few bad, (sanitised for the public or mass market), scenes or stories.

Aside: Muspelheim, check 'Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura' for an almost exact playing of the 'magic knight vs guns' scene, relayed by a survivor. Also Tabletop Shadowrun contains a fair bit of terrorism, magical and 'near-future'.

EDIT: Also check out the super mature, (BBFC: 18), Bloodnet (1993/94) for what 'might have been'