The "Family Values" trope.

[Silverbeard]

So, why the fuck in the Western world if someone does something a bit taboo, a threesome, swinging, being gay, giving a homeless person money, it breaks "family values" and the sort.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that charity and charitable donations to homeless people breaks family values. Maybe I just don't roam in the right circles to hear such things but still. Never heard that particular point come up.

 

[DefunctTheory]

So, why the fuck in the Western world if someone does something a bit taboo, a threesome, swinging, being gay, giving a homeless person money, it breaks "family values" and the sort.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that charity and charitable donations to homeless people breaks family values. Maybe I just don't roam in the right circles to hear such things but still. Never heard that particular point come up.

It's pretty rare, but some people get bent out of shape when you give direct donations (Cash to homeless hand), because there's 'a reason' they're homeless. Sometimes that reason goes against 'Family Values.'

Like I said, pretty rare, but it happens.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

I think this kinda debate thing first manifested back in California about Proposition 8 around....8 years ago? Some people just don't learn. I'll quote two people here regarding this issue, one a stand up comedian and another was a news broadcaster, and then leave you to your versions of peace.

Spoiler: First the comedian

 

[Pyrian]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that charity and charitable donations to homeless people breaks family values.

I've never heard such an objection to private and/or religious charity to homeless people, but I've certainly seen it deployed against government charity "entitlements", especially if single mothers are involved, "welfare queens" and all that.

 

[Zontar]

I think this kinda debate thing first manifested back in California about Proposition 8 around....8 years ago?

Add a 3 ahead of that and you'd be more on the mark. At least, that's if we go back to important players in the media and the social sciences advocating for the destruction of the family unit despite our entire civilization being literally build upon it and sustained by it. But that's a discussion for a thread in the basement.

Also, your video's link isn't working.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

Also, your video's link isn't working.

Likely it's because my computer can't play YouTube videos. Took a hit from a lightning bolt surge and I do not have sufficient funds or knowledge on how to get YT vids to play for me again.

Google "keith olbermann prop 8" and it's the video that's 6 minutes and 29 seconds long.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Add a 3 ahead of that and you'd be more on the mark. At least, that's if we go back to important players in the media and the social sciences advocating for the destruction of the family unit despite our entire civilization being literally build upon it and sustained by it. But that's a discussion for a thread in the basement.

Also, your video's link isn't working.

May I ask by 'our civilization' you mean ...? Also, I don't know of anybody sane who would advocate that children be ripped from their parents. I know of more than a few (like myself) who have made the argument that while parents have a right to their children, they do not have the right to own their children. For instance, withholding life saving treatment.

I've done quite well for myself, in 'our civilization'. No family required.

 

[Dragonbums]

Sigh, thought of a day:
"Stay away from political threads".

Better idea, read what posters have actually said and advocated for in the thread in question before going off on a one page rant about extremes and bigotry that nobody has actually stated in this thread.
If you think what your going to say pertains to what a user has said in the thread you can always quote them and challenge them on their opinions.
Bowing out now because it turns out that what your whining about is being called out as never happening in the thread is your own fault. Not the cause of some political forum discourse.

 

[Zontar]

May I ask by 'our civilization' you mean ...?

Western civilization, which is very well defined outside of the question of if the Southern Cone nations constitute a part of it, and where the line in Eastern Europe and the Balkans that separates it from the rest of the world lays. Though outside of relatively isolated areas most societies have the statement "was built on the family unit" hold true.

Also, I don't know of anybody sane who would advocate that children be ripped from their parents. I know of more than a few (like myself) who have made the argument that while parents have a right to their children, they do not have the right to own their children. For instance, withholding life saving treatment.

I honestly don't know what that has to do with what my post was about.

I've done quite well for myself, in 'our civilization'. No family required.

So you grew up without any family what-so-ever? Well congratulations, you lucked out given how few people can say the same background was their own while still doing well. Though I have a bad feeling someone somewhere would then use you as a poster child for pretending the national tragedy that is single motherhood is anything other then the one thing it has shown itself to be.

 

[Something Amyss]

*Sniff* You smell that? That smells like a thread that got ugly real quick.

You can smell bad threads? Damn, that's a super power I'd take back.

I think this kinda debate thing first manifested back in California about Proposition 8 around....8 years ago?

"Family values" has been around since before I was born. In one permutation or another, it dates back at least to the 50s, where the traditional white nuclear household was "under fire" because women could wear pants, get jobs, and it was slowly becoming unacceptable to beat the shit out of your wife.

 

[CrazyCapnMorgan]

"Family values" has been around since before I was born. In one permutation or another, it dates back at least to the 50s, where the traditional white nuclear household was "under fire" because women could wear pants, get jobs, and it was slowly becoming unacceptable to beat the shit out of your wife.

I acknowledge that you are correct and that this thing has been going on for more than what I posted, but the length of time I referred to was when the discourse and debate about this got national attention AND in regards to what constitutes "family" legally. My apologies for not presenting this in my first post.

In the end, I feel that if something does not infringe upon my life or my belongings, there should be no problem whatsoever. Such as the issue at hand here.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Western civilization, which is very well defined outside of the question of if the Southern Cone nations constitute a part of it, and where the line in Eastern Europe and the Balkans that separates it from the rest of the world lays. Though outside of relatively isolated areas most societies have the statement "was built on the family unit" hold true.

Garbage. I know for a fact that across the Western sphere that parents do fuck all in terms of 'civilization'. If not for ignorance, then criminal abuse. I think a New York school principle said it best; "In truth, we don't really like public holidays. School is often the only time a child gets a meal." That Western civilization?

When you become a public high school teacher, you realize quite quickly that whatever 'civilization' we have we owe to education, not parental guidance. History very easily makes that distinction, also.

I honestly don't know what that has to do with what my post was about.

At least, that's if we go back to important players in the media and the social sciences advocating for the destruction of the family unit despite our entire civilization being literally build upon it and sustained by it. But that's a discussion for a thread in the basement.

These were your words. Who, might I ask, is saying that children be ripped from their parents for no reason?

So you grew up without any family what-so-ever? Well congratulations, you lucked out given how few people can say the same background was their own while still doing well. Though I have a bad feeling someone somewhere would then use you as a poster child for pretending the national tragedy that is single motherhood is anything other then the one thing it has shown itself to be.

The irony being, that both my parents were well off. I 'lucked out', but I don't think you'd say that when you saw the homeless shelters.

More over, many of the avenues that were open to me to escape such a state are no longer viable. As a culture we seem to be making it harder for youth to leave their families. Hostile workplaces unsuited for young adults. No real wealth accumulation possibilities. Enlisting in the armed services is no longer even a guarantee. And with increased privatisation of health services, you're going to be needlessly sick, for longer, for no good reason. Further removing any sort of government service job possibility.

Families do FUCK ALL for civilization. I consider myself a proponent of civilization, I don't need a family to think that I am adding to its strength. What I owe my parents is nothing more than a contempt for the idea that families are at all 'uplifting' by definition. Certainly not civilization making, save for their worst expressions.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

May I ask by 'our civilization' you mean ...?

Western civilization, which is very well defined outside of the question of if the Southern Cone nations constitute a part of it, and where the line in Eastern Europe and the Balkans that separates it from the rest of the world lays. Though outside of relatively isolated areas most societies have the statement "was built on the family unit" hold true.

Also, I don't know of anybody sane who would advocate that children be ripped from their parents. I know of more than a few (like myself) who have made the argument that while parents have a right to their children, they do not have the right to own their children. For instance, withholding life saving treatment.

I honestly don't know what that has to do with what my post was about.

I've done quite well for myself, in 'our civilization'. No family required.

So you grew up without any family what-so-ever? Well congratulations, you lucked out given how few people can say the same background was their own while still doing well. Though I have a bad feeling someone somewhere would then use you as a poster child for pretending the national tragedy that is single motherhood is anything other then the one thing it has shown itself to be.

I was raised by largely a single mother; for all intents and purposes I am a functional, productive member of society who pays taxes, owns a home: I realize this is anecdotal but if I'm honest, I'll take a situation that involves a single loving parent with their head on straight over one with two parents who are wholly dysfunctional and don't know their arsehole from their elbow.

If old American ideal works for you and your other half, take it and run with it - but I'll be damned if I let you sideline the titanic efforts of successful single parents on my watch bucko.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Western civilization, which is very well defined outside of the question of if the Southern Cone nations constitute a part of it, and where the line in Eastern Europe and the Balkans that separates it from the rest of the world lays. Though outside of relatively isolated areas most societies have the statement "was built on the family unit" hold true.

Garbage. I know for a fact that across the Western sphere that parents do fuck all in terms of 'civilization'. If not for ignorance, then criminal abuse. I think a New York school principle said it best; "In truth, we don't really like public holidays. School is often the only time a child gets a meal." That Western civilization?

When you become a public high school teacher, you realize quite quickly that whatever 'civilization' we have we owe to education, not parental guidance. History very easily makes that distinction, also.

The switch from a public school system that was based around socialization to ones based around actual education was made after they realized that most parents couldn't or wouldn't be able to properly educate their children or prepare them to be thriving members of a community.

All hail teachers, the only reason society hasn't collapsed entirely.

 

[Zontar]

Garbage. I know for a fact that across the Western sphere that parents do fuck all in terms of 'civilization'.

Except for the fact that social dysfunction is literally impossible to separate from the breakdown of the nuclear family. A large majority of criminals come from single parent households, those with narcissistic personality disorder are much more likely then the general population to not have two parental figures in their life, youth crime went up at the exact time those who where impressionable children at the time divorce become normalized became late teenagers, and went down when the people who would have been those late teenagers ended up never having been born after the legalization of abortion.

When I say that our civilization is build on the family unit, it's not because of any bullshit, it's because that is literally the case by any metric one uses. There's a reason why the UN declaration of human rights even acknowledges the family unit as the foundation of society. It's because the family unit is the foundation of society.

[These were your words. Who, might I ask, is saying that children be ripped from their parents for no reason?.

Not a single person, because that isn't at all what I said or implied, and posting a copy of what I said only makes it harder to understand how you connect "people advocating the destruction of the family unit" with "children being ripped away from their parents". There's a middle between these two that I'm just not seeing.

Now, the media glorifying single motherhood instead of showing it in a realistic light, and brands of social science academics celebrating the end of the nuclear family, that's a problem that I despise, but as I said in another comment that's also a discussion for the basement instead of Off Topic.

The irony being, that both my parents were well off.

Wait now I'm confused, where you raised by two parents and turned out as most do or by one or none and lucked out unlike most do?

As a culture we seem to be making it harder for youth to leave their families.

Well, if parents don't raise their children to be ready for the real world when they reach adulthood it's only to be expected they won't be ready for the real world until some time after.

Hostile workplaces unsuited for young adults.

As someone who has been working since the age of 16 while being a full time student, the problem is on the side of the young adults not being prepared for entering the workforce, not the workforce being unsuited for taking in people who didn't get the preparation they needed.

No real wealth accumulation possibilities.

Maybe not for those who elect to go to university for a junk degree, but those who go for a proper degree or take a trade on the other hand have great opportunity. Hell we live in a time where there's three easy steps to avoid entering poverty: getting a high school diploma, getting a full time job (even at minimum wage, which in this economy isn't as hard as people think if they're willing to settle) and not having children before marriage. Sure not everyone can manage that, but most are more then capable of doing so and if they do there is only a marginally insignificant chance of becoming impoverished. Which is fair better odds then pretty much any time in the past.

Enlisting in the armed services is no longer even a guarantee

Well to be fair the only reason it was a guarantee once upon a time was because there was a war going on. In the 80s the USN has a manpower shortage, the 90s and 00's saw the USA with a manpower shortage, but now there is no shortage so no guarantee. Basic economics.

And with increased privitisation of health services, you're going to be needlessly sick, for longer, for no good reason.

Well that's a problem, but it's a problem that has always been there for the US. Thankfully for me my country has actually benefited from a bit of privitization. We hate to admit it up here but we actually took a few of the elements of private health care the US system showed functioned and adopted them, and while wait times up here are still terrible we've managed to cut them down when compared to the days of completely government run health care.

Though one of the problems is unbalanced regulations. Too many in areas that don't need them (or are held back by overregulation) while areas that need them are underregulated. It's a nightmare of a legal setup second only to the taxation system.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Though I have a bad feeling someone somewhere would then use you as a poster child for pretending the national tragedy that is single motherhood is anything other then the one thing it has shown itself to be.

The way you say that makes it seem like you think Single motherhood is some recent phenomenon come about by a specific policy on purpose, or that it's some problem that could be rectified with one or two simple moves if only people wanted to.

Which, of course, it isn't. Shit happens, couples break up, or one or the other dies, etc. It's not like there's a push to have more single moms raising kids or anything. It's just a sad fact of life.

Then again, that's just what that comment seems to be saying in some way, which it probably/hopefully isn't. I dunno. I'm tired. XD

 

[Zontar]

If old American ideal works for you and your other half, take it and run with it - but I'll be damned if I let you sideline the titanic efforts of successful single parents on my watch bucko.

Hey if you managed to make it work all power to you, but you also can't deny the fact that most people can't make it work. There are exceptions to every rule, but there is also a reason why most rapists are from single parent households, why most murderers are from single parent households, why most people with narcissistic personality disorder are from single parent households, and a long list of other problems society is currently going through that has had a significant effect on those born in the past 30 years. It takes twice the effort to get the same outcome, and most are simply not up to the challenge. And we as a society pay the price because those raised in single parent households are far more likely then those not to end up in poverty and a drain on the welfare state, as well as having a significantly higher chance of entering a life of crime.

I also wouldn't call it an "old American ideal" given it's fairly ubiquitous throughout the Americas, Europe and Asia

 

[Zontar]

Snip

It's true single motherhood has always been a thing, but the past 30-40 years has seen the number of single mothers rise to unprecedented levels.

I'm aware of the fact that there will always bee single mothers, but the problem is that we as a society are far too willing to think the reasons for it are acceptable. While for many it is beyond their power, for most it is because someone involved simply did not want to take care of their children. That is a problem when children need parental figures in their life and for most people being a single parent is simply beyond their abilities due to the stress involved coupled with the greater financial burden one is placed under.

This isn't at all helped by the fact the media glorifies single motherhood as though it is something to be aspired to, or social science academics who want to see an end to the nuclear family. Sure most people don't take such academics seriously, but it doesn't take many doing so for that to end up being a problem.

I think the worst part of it is that no one knows how to solve the problems society is facing due to so many parents being unable to raise their children. We sure can't depend on the education system to fill the gap, teachers aren't capable of doing that for 30+ kids on top of teaching them what they're supposed to be doing.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Aaaaand again we see a thread discussing a problem turn into a thread demonstrating one.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Connection through DNA is horse shit. If two people are connected by blood, and there's respect and love between them, great; If there's nothing but hate and bile between them, fuck'em.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Thank you.

Aaaaand again we see a thread discussing a problem turn into a thread demonstrating one.

It is, at least a little, my fault. I apologize for digging this hole.

Can anyone ever forgive me?