The "Family Values" trope.

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mduncan50

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Dollabillyall said:
So am I pro-family values? I sure am. Do I have the same view on what they are or should be as Fox news? Fuck no. Should we all think about ways to reconcile the christian conception of marriage with the secular one in order to leave the current state of things where christians feel attacked in their religion and gay people feel suppressed in their freedom? I sure think so, and family values is potentially a big part of that discussion.
I'm sorry, but I have to say a big no to this. Marriage has been around a lot longer that Christianity, and it will probably be around long after as well. And Christians are feeling their religion is being attacked BECAUSE they are not allowed to suppress the freedoms of gay people, so I don't think that's a fair comparison to make. As for a "traditional" family being one man, one woman, and their children through most of history, well that's just downright incorrect. That is a fairly recent trend, and one that isn't even present in your bible. It is way more common throughout history for "marriage" to be one person married to many (usually one man and multiple women, but the opposite is also true in rare cases) or many to many in more of a communal family. And that's just talking about the "official" marriages, not the very common and often accepted affairs and such (many same-sex) which occur up to and including today.

Historically, homosexuality has been (partially due to prevalent social values rejecting it) a very unstable type of relationship as well. This may be part of the reason why many people still view homosexual couples as inherently unstable.
So openly gay relationships have shown to be very unstable because of the oppression and discrimination they have received, which can cause understandable strains, and thus this is why those discriminatory people think they are inherently unstable? Even better reason to ignore them when they try to pass laws infringing on the rights of LGBT peoples.
 

irish286

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Family values are sticking together, loving one another, and helping each other. Family values does not mean all of this other crap most of you are trying to claim. It isn't some code for discrimination or bigotry. It's not some hateful intolerant concept. Those are meanings you've imposed on it because of your biased views of the people who support it. All of you people claim to be so tolerant of others and yet have this ridiculous capacity to justify any action in order to force others to support your views...
 

Silvanus

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Dollabillyall said:
Third, what you have to understand about christians is that in their culture (and yes, their culture should be respected in the same way you respect the culture and religion of muslims, hindus, jews and world views of that sort) view marriage as a bond ordained by God directly and thus it is inconceivable that there be something recognized as "marriage" that happens outside of that frame.
"Respected" is perhaps not the right term; we should substitute "recognise". We may recognise a position for such Christian ideas as this in our society, and still not respect the idea that they should have any power outside of those who willingly and expressly consent to them.

They may view marriage as a divine bond, sure. Nobody is obligated to respect that baseless belief, and it should not occupy that position in a legal capacity intended to reflect society as a whole.


Dollabillyall said:
Ofcourse this is not an attack at single or divorced parents. I'm not saying that collage families or single parent families are incapable of producing a loving and stable environment for a child... but decades of research has shown time and time again that stable, two-parent families are the best predictor for future happiness, ability to create and maintain lasting relationships and succes in overcoming challenges and achieving goals.
Well, no, it hasn't, actually. Decades of research has provided us with reams of information which may possibly be interpreted that way, if we were willingly being reductionist, and predisposed to believe that interpretation to begin with. I have yet to see any research on the matter that isn't plagued by confounding variables.

irish286 said:
Family values are sticking together, loving one another, and helping each other.
In that case, "family values" are utterly universal, and the term is meaningless. One wonders why one side of the political spectrum is far more likely to use it than the other. Perhaps it is far more likely to be co-opted by specific ideologies?

The same is true of various terms on the opposite side of the political divide, too, of course.
 

9tailedflame

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Yea, the idea of the "family values" has always been pretty bullshit. The structure basically works, to be fair, the nuclear family model i mean, it provides a source of income with a breadwinner and a support system with a homemaker, and does a pretty decent job of taking care of and rearing kids, but that doesn't mean other models can't work, or that these are things only the nuclear model can pull off, and the idea that the nuclear family is the only acceptable model is complete crap, and anyone who's actually thought about it knows that.

I think the hate that the "family values" ideology breeds is part of suburban culture at large, the idea that projecting the image of wealth and happiness is the only thing worth doing, and anything else might as well be a witch to burn. I have problems myself with these types, i have a functional and legal, but completely crap looking car, parked legally in the street across my house, and my neighbors leave nasty notes saying how it "wrecks the view". That's kinda what their problem is, forget that i need a car to drive, and that car needs to take up space, and i live with 6 other people, so there's limited space in the garage, no, all that reality never occurs to the suburbanite. A sick twisted people they are. The problem is that suburbia is comfortable, and if you heed anything in this post, heed this. Never underestimate the power of comfort. This is a force to be reckoned with, and it is suburbia's greatest weapon. For all it's pitfalls, it's close-mindedness, absurd materialism, value of style over substance, and convention over truth, and social ranking over law or reason, suburbia is comfortable, and as anyone who spends too much time on the internet knows, comfort is hard to break free of, no matter how much bad stuff you KNOW it's enabling. My 24 years of accomplishing and doing very little because of how comforting and convenient the internet is have taught me this well enough.

This leads me to another point, one that will no doubt piss lots of people off, but here goes. And please keep in mind that these are observations, not opinions. In my time on this earth, i have learned that there is a certain degree of merit in mistrusting the "progressive" at times. Look at modern feminism. There's more than a bit of a "take anything and everything you can" mentality to it, that deviates far from wanting equality, and reaches into oppression. Hell, men simply sitting without crushing their testicles between their thighs is seen as a problem to these people. Forcing people to crush their own genitals because their clothed crotch offends you, that's tyranny, that's oppression, that's what certain progressive people want. This is sometimes what we get from progressiveness. Yes, sometimes we get great things, like an end to slavery, new technology, all kinds of good stuff, but sometimes we get shit too, like revenge-discrimination. There's good and there's bad. Some things ARE a threat to the nuclear family, and the nuclear family doesn't always deserve to be threatened like that. In the end, people rarely really want equality, and this applies to people of all kinds. They want what's best for them and those close to them, and they will screw anyone who doesn't fit that bill if it makes they're lives even very slightly better. Equality is actually just as much a ludicrous false concept as family values is, and engenders just as much hate and bullshit.
 

Pyrian

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9tailedflame said:
Equality is actually just as much a ludicrous false concept as family values is, and engenders just as much hate and bullshit.
All in all, I'd call that kind of a pathetic attempt at false equivalence. On the one hand, we have murder. On the other hand, we have people tweeting about people spreading their legs on crowded buses. "Just as much hate and bullshit", I think not.
 

DefunctTheory

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9tailedflame said:
Yes, sometimes we get great things, like an end to slavery, new technology, all kinds of good stuff, but sometimes we get shit too, like revenge-discrimination.
Pro Tip - Any time you have a sentence that's 'It ended slavery, but...' you'd better put something on the other side of that equation more specific then 'revenge-discrimination.'

And revenge-discrimination isn't really a thing, by the way. It's just discrimination, regardless of which way it swings. Same with 'Reverse-Racism.' It's just racism, folks.

Some things ARE a threat to the nuclear family, and the nuclear family doesn't always deserve to be threatened like that.
Name three direct threats to the nuclear family. Please.

Equality is actually just as much a ludicrous false concept as family values is, and engenders just as much hate and bullshit.
The only people I've ever met that thought equality was a bad thing, or was 'fake,' were the ones trying to gouge their little piece heaven out of someone else's skin. And they are not as common as you would think.
 

mduncan50

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9tailedflame said:
Hell, men simply sitting without crushing their testicles between their thighs is seen as a problem to these people. Forcing people to crush their own genitals because their clothed crotch offends you, that's tyranny, that's oppression, that's what certain progressive people want.
I have literally never heard of this happening anywhere ever. Perhaps it has somewhere in some random place, but it is nowhere near as common as institutionalized sexism, sexual harassment, and rape, so if the consequences of getting rid of those things is that some guy in Buttfuck, Nowhere has slightly tender testes, then I'm okay with that trade.
 

Pyrian

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mduncan50 said:
I have literally never heard of this happening anywhere ever.
It's real, for what it is. Google "manspreading". People complain that men spread their legs on crowded public transit, often accompanied by pictures of men spreading their legs on distinctly not crowded public transit. Real, petty, but not entirely unjustified, and certainly in no way comparable to how the "family values" crowd goes around denying basic rights to people who don't conform to their narrow views.
 

Amir Kondori

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Family is the most important thing to me. To me it is family, country, friends, and then other obligations. To often so called "family values" groups and politicians really mean "my particular brand of Christian values" and is directly opposed to my own value system.
 

9tailedflame

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mduncan50 said:
9tailedflame said:
Hell, men simply sitting without crushing their testicles between their thighs is seen as a problem to these people. Forcing people to crush their own genitals because their clothed crotch offends you, that's tyranny, that's oppression, that's what certain progressive people want.
I have literally never heard of this happening anywhere ever. Perhaps it has somewhere in some random place, but it is nowhere near as common as institutionalized sexism, sexual harassment, and rape, so if the consequences of getting rid of those things is that some guy in Buttfuck, Nowhere has slightly tender testes, then I'm okay with that trade.
But why not do neither of these things? Why is it a trade? That's what i don't get. Forcing people to crush their testicles doesn't really help anybody, it doesn't do anything whatsoever to stop institutionalized sexism, sexual harassment and rape, so why do you act like it's a trade? Because it's not at all, and i have no clue at all how you came to that conclusion.
 

DefunctTheory

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9tailedflame said:
mduncan50 said:
9tailedflame said:
Hell, men simply sitting without crushing their testicles between their thighs is seen as a problem to these people. Forcing people to crush their own genitals because their clothed crotch offends you, that's tyranny, that's oppression, that's what certain progressive people want.
I have literally never heard of this happening anywhere ever. Perhaps it has somewhere in some random place, but it is nowhere near as common as institutionalized sexism, sexual harassment, and rape, so if the consequences of getting rid of those things is that some guy in Buttfuck, Nowhere has slightly tender testes, then I'm okay with that trade.

But why not do neither of these things? Why is it a trade? That's what i don't get. Forcing people to crush their testicles doesn't really help anybody, it doesn't do anything whatsoever to stop institutionalized sexism, sexual harassment and rape, so why do you act like it's a trade? Because it's not at all, and i have no clue at all how you came to that conclusion.
You're the one conflating the two. mduncan50 is just pointing out that if those two things are related, then it's worth it.
 

9tailedflame

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AccursedTheory said:
9tailedflame said:
mduncan50 said:
9tailedflame said:
Hell, men simply sitting without crushing their testicles between their thighs is seen as a problem to these people. Forcing people to crush their own genitals because their clothed crotch offends you, that's tyranny, that's oppression, that's what certain progressive people want.
I have literally never heard of this happening anywhere ever. Perhaps it has somewhere in some random place, but it is nowhere near as common as institutionalized sexism, sexual harassment, and rape, so if the consequences of getting rid of those things is that some guy in Buttfuck, Nowhere has slightly tender testes, then I'm okay with that trade.

But why not do neither of these things? Why is it a trade? That's what i don't get. Forcing people to crush their testicles doesn't really help anybody, it doesn't do anything whatsoever to stop institutionalized sexism, sexual harassment and rape, so why do you act like it's a trade? Because it's not at all, and i have no clue at all how you came to that conclusion.
You're the one conflating the two. mduncan50 is just pointing out that if those two things are related, then it's worth it.
I never said it was one or the other. I just said that it's ludicrous to say that the only group of people who advocate hatred are suburbanite family values types, and that people who have a problem with uncrossed legs are potentially crazy enough to be a threat to them, so it's not absurd to say that yes, some things are a threat to the nuclear family, the insane branches of feminism included, and that suburbanites are hardly exclusive in creating a culture that advocates unnecessary hatred.

It's this insane and bigoted philosophy so many ultra-liberals have, that any and all evil in the world is caused by straight white cis suburban men like myself, and nothing is ever anybody Else's fault and i'm pure evil and the cause of all the problems in the world just by my birthright. That the very concept of institutionalized racism/sexism whatever exists, always remaining undefined and vague so as to fit in to anything and never be solved, so that it can be used as a weapon of bigotry against people like me regardless of what the situation is, will justify any and all hatred that they themselves might advocate. That because of the mythical institutionalized racism/sexism whatever That mindset is so insane, so bullshitty, and so downright stupid, that i won't just sit here and let these people slowly build up more and more unjustified hatred. I'm gonna call it out. No, suburbanites and family values types, while quite bullshitty themselves, and who are in no way justified in that bullshit and do need to change, are not the exclusive perpetrator's of hatred and bullshit. Everyone does that.
 

DefunctTheory

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9tailedflame said:
I never said it was one or the other. I just said that it's ludicrous to say that the only group of people who advocate hatred are suburbanite family values types, and that people who have a problem with uncrossed legs are potentially crazy enough to be a threat to them, so it's not absurd to say that yes, some things are a threat to the nuclear family, the insane branches of feminism included, and that suburbanites are hardly exclusive in creating a culture that advocates unnecessary hatred.
And yet, you never did answer me and provide 3 direct threats to the nuclear family. If #manspreading, a thing that, as far as I can tell, only exist on social media sites with post character quantity limits and in the straw you make men out of, is all you got, then I understand why you wouldn't answer such a question.

No one here has said that suburbanite families are the source of all hatred, either. No one, anywhere, does, besides perhaps a few nutbags on twitter and the occasional lunatic at a bus station.

It's this insane and bigoted philosophy so many ultra-liberals have...
So many? Who? No one here, certainly. No one on the news that I can find. Google's coming up short.

Who are these multitude? Did the demon named Legion come back and campaign for Bernie Sanders while I was in the bathroom?

...that any and all evil in the world is caused by straight white cis suburban men like myself
Show me these people, outside of twitter, and I shall laugh at them with you.

and nothing is ever anybody Else's fault and i'm pure evil and the cause of all the problems in the world just by my birthright.
I'm white, straight, and have a penis, and I've never had any of these problems. Perhaps you just live in a bad neighborhood.

Though, to be honest, the whole 'white male birthright' thing is making me nervous. Sending up some flags. I'll try to ignore them.

That the very concept of institutionalized racism/sexism whatever exists, always remaining undefined and vague so as to fit in to anything and never be solved, so that it can be used as a weapon of bigotry against people like me regardless of what the situation is, will justify any and all hatred that they themselves might advocate.
You may want to actually look up institutional racism/sexism sometime. While it's often incorrectly attributed to things, it does exist.

I'm gonna call it out.
You haven't though. You've ranted and raged and stomped you're feet, all the while pointing at some vague beast and claiming it stole your lunch money. Why don't you provide something specific. We typically call it 'a source' around these parts.

Seriously, point at something, anything.

No, suburbanites and family values types, while quite bullshitty themselves, and who are in no way justified in that bullshit and do need to change, are not the exclusive perpetrator's of hatred and bullshit. Everyone does that.
Ok.
 

DefunctTheory

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undeadsuitor said:
"A guy sitting with his legs closed is CRUSHING HIS TESTICLES"

see folks, this is why we need proper Sex ed in schools.
Or more supportive underwear.
 

Parasondox

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undeadsuitor said:
"A guy sitting with his legs closed is CRUSHING HIS TESTICLES"

see folks, this is why we need proper Sex ed in schools.
I didn't know sex ed was that bad these days. Maybe some people don't know how testicles really work.
 

DefunctTheory

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undeadsuitor said:
AccursedTheory said:
Or more supportive underwear.
I honestly can't think of any kind of underwear that would do anything close to that. The only time my testicles were ever crushed was when I paid someone to do it and I haven't had that kind of money in years!
I have it on good authority, and totally not from personal experience, that lady panties will do the trick.

Parasondox said:
I didn't know sex ed was that bad these days. Maybe some people don't know how testicles really work.
It's pretty bad. I saw (On a show called Bullshit, admittedly) one teacher who had to describe how to put a condom one by using his foot and a rolled up sock, because he wasn't even allowed to say the word 'condom.'

My own 'Health' (Not Sex Ed) class was fairly rudimentary, as well. The only thing we did was look at pictures of STD riddled groins. Fairly effective, though - I spent a whole week studying latex on my own time in a flurry of panic and terror and didn't have sex until I was in the Army.
 

mduncan50

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undeadsuitor said:
AccursedTheory said:
Or more supportive underwear.
I honestly can't think of any kind of underwear that would do anything close to that. The only time my testicles were ever crushed was when I paid someone to do it and I haven't had that kind of money in years!

Parasondox said:
I didn't know sex ed was that bad these days. Maybe some people don't know how testicles really work.
Considering the average Sex Ed curriculum is "dont think about it", I wouldn't be surprised
Bringing it full circle, let's not forget that the "family values" version of sex ed to be taught in schools involves storks and never ever ever having sex unless you are married.
 

Parasondox

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AccursedTheory said:
Parasondox said:
I didn't know sex ed was that bad these days. Maybe some people don't know how testicles really work.
It's pretty bad. I saw (On a show called Bullshit, admittedly) one teacher who had to describe how to put a condom one by using his foot and a rolled up sock, because he wasn't even allowed to say the word 'condom.'

My own 'Health' (Not Sex Ed) class was fairly rudimentary, as well. The only thing we did was look at pictures of STD riddled groins. Fairly effective, though - I spent a whole week studying latex on my own time in a flurry of panic and terror and didn't have sex until I was in the Army.
Yeah I saw that on Last Week Tonight. They weren't allowed to use a banana, plus they also showed how young girls sexuality were compared to sellotape, a dirty shoe, chewing gum. Fucking awful.
The fuck is wrong with adults!!
 

DefunctTheory

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Parasondox said:
AccursedTheory said:
Parasondox said:
I didn't know sex ed was that bad these days. Maybe some people don't know how testicles really work.
It's pretty bad. I saw (On a show called Bullshit, admittedly) one teacher who had to describe how to put a condom one by using his foot and a rolled up sock, because he wasn't even allowed to say the word 'condom.'

My own 'Health' (Not Sex Ed) class was fairly rudimentary, as well. The only thing we did was look at pictures of STD riddled groins. Fairly effective, though - I spent a whole week studying latex on my own time in a flurry of panic and terror and didn't have sex until I was in the Army.

Yeah I saw that on Last Week Tonight. They weren't allowed to use a banana, plus they also showed how young girls sexuality were compared to sellotape, a dirty shoe, chewing gum. Fucking awful.

The fuck is wrong with adults!!
It would be hilarious, if it wasn't so soul crushingly sad and pathetic.

mduncan50 said:
undeadsuitor said:
AccursedTheory said:
Or more supportive underwear.
I honestly can't think of any kind of underwear that would do anything close to that. The only time my testicles were ever crushed was when I paid someone to do it and I haven't had that kind of money in years!

Parasondox said:
I didn't know sex ed was that bad these days. Maybe some people don't know how testicles really work.
Considering the average Sex Ed curriculum is "dont think about it", I wouldn't be surprised

Bringing it full circle, let's not forget that the "family values" version of sex ed to be taught in schools involves storks and never ever ever having sex unless you are married.
And the dick is a fountain of virtue, while a vagina is a car that's value and overall quality decreases infinitely with every new 'owner.'
 

mduncan50

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AccursedTheory said:
And the dick is a fountain of virtue, while a vagina is a car that's value and overall quality decreases infinitely with every new 'owner.'
Wait, is that promoting that young men should only be sexually active with other young men? Finally, we have figured out the "Family Values" agenda.