The Fantastic Four Movie Reboot Unveils Its Cast

[JimB]

Wait, who said I was attacking his blackness?

Uh, I did.

I have said multiple times that the reason I don't like they've chosen a black actor for Johnny Storm is that because Johnny Storm is white in every other incarnation.

Yes, that's what I said. You are not saying, "It's good that Johnny Storm is white," but rather, "It's bad that he's black."

Usually, you don't try to paint a side's argument as "racist" when you're trying to debate something that's subjective.

Math is the only subject that isn't subjective, so not really sure your measuring stick applies.

Why else would this choice be made though?

The hell would I know? Ask the director, don't ask me.

It's not like he chose him because he was the best available actor when casting; the director already predetermined he was going to cast him as Johnny Storm way before this was announced.

What's your basis for saying that?

Yeah.... they didn't just alter the Mandarin's skin in the movie, if you hadn't noticed.

I'm not talking about the movie. I'm talking about the comic. The comic changed the Mandarin's skin color (and presumably his facial hair as well). This offends you when it's done to Johnny Storm, so why doesn't it offend you when it's done to the Mandarin?

a selection made usually automatically or without active consideration due to lack of a viable alternative

God, there are so many things I want to say to this, but I have places to be, so I'm just going to ask, what about Johnny Storm's character required Stan Lee to invent him as a white man to such a degree that no other race (or combination of races, which I only bring up because I think people forget how many people are not racially pure) was a viable choice?

What are you arguing for? That Johnny Storm could of been any race if Stan Lee chose so? Well no shit Sherlock. But guess what, Stan Lee chose to make him white and not a different race. That's just an inane argument considering just about any character can be race or gender swapped. The point is he could [have] chosen to have made him another race, but he didn't.

Then it is not a default, because there were other viable options. Like, say, the option the filmmakers chose.

 

[JimB]

Is it necessarily a good thing for any character to be the race they were created with?

No.

It's not something that needs to be said.

Yes, it is, if you need to explain why a change is bad, unless your premise is that change is inherently a bad thing.

What's the "racist" equivalent to Godwin's Law? Anyone know? Because that would fit perfectly here.

What are you on about?

I believe the director said loooooooooooong before this he always intended this particular actor to play Johnny Storm, working with him in Chronicle.

Let's leave aside that I don't accept your belief as an authority on anything and just grant that what you said is factually accurate. How does that disprove the point? If the director intended for Michael B. Jordan to be the Human Torch, then by definition, Michael B. Jordan is the single best qualified person on the planet to play the role, since in order to do so he'd have to be Michael B. Jordan.

Different context. The Mandarin was a racial stereotype, but they overhauled that quite a while ago for obvious reasons.

Fair enough.

Unless you're going to start to make an argument that Johnny Storm being white is racist (please don't) they're not very similar situations.

I'm not, but the assumption that he has to be kind of is.

Again, until we

Yeah, I'm not going to respond to any sentence you write that starts with the word "again." If I didn't find a statement compelling the first time you said it, why would repeating it change my mind?

Like the scenario I used before with the Red Skull, would changing him from German to Italian in that particularly horrible movie change the default of him being a German Nazi?

Nor will I continue feeding your insistence that the word "default" means "original."

 

[Dragonbums]

Does anyone else want to see Micheal Jordan as Mr. Fantastic? I haven't seen any of his acting but he looks to be more suited to it than the two interchangeable white guys.

Remember Space Jam?

That's all I'm gonna say on that matter.

..... >.>

his name literally is michael jordan. for getting your jimmies rustled to the max about this I thought you might realize that...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0430107/

OT: I think the cast is a bit young, but I have no problem with michael playing human torch, I like him alot as an actor and think he can pull it off. I honestly can't say how I feel about racial casting one way or the other, I typically prefer a character who plays the role well (like I didn't mind cumberbatch as khan in the new star trek, even if his ancestry wouldn't put him as the pale british guy he is. at least probably not.) and typically tend to not care about the race too much, unless it's really a defining part of the character.

curious, dragonbums, would you be this upset if black panther was played by a white guy? (not the exact same scenario, but still, raceswapping a popular character nonetheless.)

Jimmies rustled? I wasn't mad at all. Space Jam is like the best(worst) movie ever!

Granted I did realize my mistake like a day later so I felt ultimately stupid for that comment.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Jimmies rustled? I wasn't mad at all. Space Jam is like the best(worst) movie ever!

Granted I did realize my mistake like a day later so I felt ultimately stupid for that comment.

Spoiler: this post in particular came across as jimmies been rustled, but I could very well be wrong

Honestly, I've hear people make an argument stating that if "race doesn't matter then it shouldn't matter if the lead for 12 years a slave is black" which was the dumbest fucking thing I've read all year, and once again, the majority catered to demographic of white dudes completely miss the mark and the point about how one point of race swapping is irrelevant and the other form is.

The Human Torch being black/white/asian/latino/etc. means fuck all because the human torch is identified as the guy who can cover his body with flames and fly. That's fucking it.
The human torch is also a fictional character. So race swapping him shouldn't mean a damn to anyone.

12 years a slave however is the retelling of actual events by things that actually happened to people.
Yes, the lead for 12 years a slave is very much connected to his race and skin tone because it's not made up shit. It's something that actually happened.

Race swapping the guy from 12 years a slave with a white dude is a slap in the face because it's an utter lie of a real story and is a disrespect to the history of black Americans.

Oh SURE there were white slaves PRESENT however one needs to remember that the perception of that time was "if you even had a drop of black in your blood you were black" that means if you saw a "white" slave back then, damn good chances are that person has a descendant that was black. Hence why they are slaves.

Regardless, it just comes to show how disgustingly racist fans of the comic book industry is. They like to pretend they aren't with their smokescreen of "oh well it's not necessary" and whatever bullshit they can come up with, but it's very much still a segregated thing.

They don't want comic books to expand demographics to be inclusive. They just want everything all white and pretty. The "others" can separate themselves to the minority category.

I will agree though, space jam is the best worst movie ever, which is why it proudly sits on my blu-ray shelf and I pull it out anytime my youngest brother comes over.

 

[Dragonbums]

Regardless, it just comes to show how disgustingly racist fans of the comic book industry is. They like to pretend they aren't with their smokescreen of "oh well it's not necessary" and whatever bullshit they can come up with, but it's very much still a segregated thing.

"Oh wow, comic fans must not like how they're changing an important aspect of a character they like so they must be racist for even thinking to criticize such a progressive and equalizing improvement. If they say they just don't like the pointless change, that must mean they are just trying to cover their racist, racist views with a more believable argument and don't actually believe what they're saying."

After seeing your arguments with various other users on any subject involving race change, I'm just going to tell you, yes that is racist.

Human Torch being white is not a defining feature of the Human Torch. His defining and fundamental feature is having the ability to set his body on fire and fly. Which design of him being white or black first means fuck all in that.