Communism is great on paper, just like any other form of governance. But the main reason it would fail is greed...simple greed. Someone feels that their slice isn't big enough, get's greedy and ruins it for everyone else.
The fatal flaw of communism. A discussion of economic theory.
- Thread starter Kubanator
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Eh, I think pure capitalism can be a decent thing. Non beneficial monopolies can inherently not exist is such a market, companies that make or break it are determined strictly by the consumer, and we've seen that wages stay quite far above standard minimum wage as set by government. The freedom that exist in a strictly capitalistic environment far exceeds imo the security of a controlled market.Rolling Thunder said:
What about communism in the sense of a non monetary society?Kubanator said:Communism is the idea that if everyone earned equal amounts of money, nobody would be poor/hungry/. There is one major problem. People don't do equal amounts of work. First of all, lets define work.
Work is the product of labour and effectiveness, meaning that the amount of work you do depends on how much you work, and how much your work is valued. Meaning that a doctor does more work than a janitor. Not because a doctors job is harder than a janitors, or that the doctor works more hours, but a doctor is far more useful to humanity than a janitor, and thus he makes more money. This is fair. I am better than you at cooking, thus I become head chef and make more money. Work = Money. They are the same thing, except money is physical.
Thus communism is the idea that even though I am better than you, we are equal. That even though I can design factories, and you can work in them, your work is just as valuable as mine. Communism is unfair. It punishes those with ability, and promotes those with a lack of it. It forces the strong to carry the weak. That's not an act of good. You are taking power from those who deserve it, who earned it, and giving it to every incapable labourer.
The strong will not stand for this. When they realize that their labour doesn't correlate to their reward, they will cease to work. The strong drive the economy forward. It's their minds which keep it moving. If you decide punish them, the economy will cease to move, and the country will fall.
Communism makes people into insects, if we could accept this and actually pull it off then we would become extremely effecient organisms indeed. But we aren't insects, communism goes against human nature.
All I hear when it comes to communism is "O, it sounded good on paper" or "it goes against human nature".
What about a communist regime... where the population is divided into classes and region. A national census would be pulled up every month about how every occupation as well as region is doing. Say you are a doctor in region X, and region X has handled the recent pandemic very well, your entire group (the doctor occupation of X) receives a working bonus in terms of materials and luxury items. If the region X does better (in terms of materialistic output) than Y and Z, than it also receives a smaller supply bonus to everyone in the region.
If this regime would become economically bankrupt and/or unsuccessful, Plan B activates and rerolls it back into a capitalistic nation. While it is capitalistic, various personnel analyze the cause and effect of the failure, than improves the communistic regime so that it can be reused again at a later time.
In this way competition is encouraged between regions and occupations while communism is ensured within the regime (along with a failsafe system).
any criticisms and/or questions?
What about a communist regime... where the population is divided into classes and region. A national census would be pulled up every month about how every occupation as well as region is doing. Say you are a doctor in region X, and region X has handled the recent pandemic very well, your entire group (the doctor occupation of X) receives a working bonus in terms of materials and luxury items. If the region X does better (in terms of materialistic output) than Y and Z, than it also receives a smaller supply bonus to everyone in the region.
If this regime would become economically bankrupt and/or unsuccessful, Plan B activates and rerolls it back into a capitalistic nation. While it is capitalistic, various personnel analyze the cause and effect of the failure, than improves the communistic regime so that it can be reused again at a later time.
In this way competition is encouraged between regions and occupations while communism is ensured within the regime (along with a failsafe system).
any criticisms and/or questions?
The only way communism would work is if human beings had the exact same social qualities as ants. Good thread.
My friend, smart guy told me something today:
Give 3 men, TEN POUNDS and they are equal in pay.
The first man spends all his money and so has nothing left.
The second man saves his money and so has ten pounds left.
The third man invests the money and doubles his money, meaning he has twenty pounds left.
In a few simple stages each man is now different. £0 for 1 - £10 for 2 - £20 for 3
CF (Communism Fail.)
Give 3 men, TEN POUNDS and they are equal in pay.
The first man spends all his money and so has nothing left.
The second man saves his money and so has ten pounds left.
The third man invests the money and doubles his money, meaning he has twenty pounds left.
In a few simple stages each man is now different. £0 for 1 - £10 for 2 - £20 for 3
CF (Communism Fail.)
You aren't really letting a cat out of the bag here. Communism sucks and it has always sucked. I'm just not sure why so many escapists are pro-communism.
That isn't Communism's fatal flaw. Communism's fatal flaw is that it is based on the foundation of infinite resources (or at least sufficient resources to satisfy all wants).
I believe that even with Star Trek-esque replicators and WALL-E-esque automation political power and entertainment (and companionship depending on your perspective) will still be scarce resources so the abundance of everything required for communism will never exist (or not for a very long time at least).
And even if that fundamental requirement could be met and the Communist Utopia could be created there's still external factors to be mindful of. In a society with no motivation to achieve there would be no one to be mindful of those things.
I believe that even with Star Trek-esque replicators and WALL-E-esque automation political power and entertainment (and companionship depending on your perspective) will still be scarce resources so the abundance of everything required for communism will never exist (or not for a very long time at least).
And even if that fundamental requirement could be met and the Communist Utopia could be created there's still external factors to be mindful of. In a society with no motivation to achieve there would be no one to be mindful of those things.
There was no real problem with the economic theory behind communism. The problem was the leaders of the countries with communism. they were all power hungry and greedy dictators. If a country with communism was to be run by a person who was not in anyway corrupt or greedy(good luck finding someone) then communism would work.
Communism fails, Capitalism fails, Socialism is "too" communist, so in America everyone will lynch you if you so much as utter anything good about it. I would still support a libertarian type socialism in which you are paid based upon responsibility and everyone still has equal power in the same corporation by having equal stock and consent with voting when anything significant changes in it.
Commusism is really the type of thing I'd expect to see as a plot device in a pretty good science fiction novel. But real life? People don't work like that. It's doesn't even really "work" on paper because the paper makes the mistake of assuming people are ants.