The Felicia Day/Destructoid situation

[dystopiaINC]

I don't get why in gaming circles no one has a nice balanced view on woman. They're not all sluts and they're not all shining bastions of purity and goodness, they're just fucking people.

If this is actually what you think, we're definitely in agreement. People who respond to sexism by putting their head in the sand, people who only speak out against sexism because they think it will get them laid, and people who act sexist are all perpetuating the problem in different ways. And, as you said, these attitudes are pretty endemic on gaming websites. AFAIK, the Escapist is one of the least bad ones for this.

I like what you guys say here.

I'm honestly glad to see someone else entertain the possibility that the phony "white knight" attitude is a thing and it's just as big a part of the problem. I never see that notion addressed in these forum debates about sexism. Far more than the prevalence of the debate itself, I'm sick of that immediate reactionary attitude of "you're with us or you're part of the problem" with no in-between. Maybe they're genuine but they're so extreme sometimes that I can't help but feel it's an act put on just to LOOK like they're progressive.

Regarding Eyelicker's point, maybe that's why I don't necessarily categorize female characters in fiction based on strong/weak, objectified/non-objectified, etc. There are all kinds of men and women in the world, so it's not hard for me to see them as just...characters. Then again, I'm a self-professed privileged heterosexual man and prone to being horny at physical representations of women, from Half-Life to Dead or Alive. You won't catch me apologizing for that, but you'll also never catch me telling my girlfriend to get back in the kitchen. People aren't black and white.

And regarding Ryan Perez and Felicia Day, there's no question the dude was completely out of line. That said, shame on anyone who harassed or wished him harm on Twitter for it. Those that had the chance to respectfully inform or ignore him, and used it instead to condemn and destroy the other party for their ignorance, short-sightedness and immaturity (crimes that no one is innocent of, by the way)...they're no better at all.

^ THIS
The whole way this sort of thing gets blown out of proportion annoys me. In this case dude had an opinion, stated it in a completely out of line and stupid fashion, and saw his career ruined. and for what? punishment should obviously be in order, but he lost his damn job over it, hell I spent almost a year looking for work, now that I have a job I would fight tooth and nail to keep it even though i hate the damn thing, and I would be pissed if I got fired because of a stupid lapse in judgement that had nothing to do with my job.

 

[thepyrethatburns]

The two things that I take from this:

1) Man, Apollo Smile would have killed for this sort of defense.

2) This should be a lesson for everyone. Avoid sponsored language. Even if your language isn't sponsored, avoid situations where your real name can be associated with what you're saying. This is why you should give as little personal information as possible to any Facebook/G+/Twitter/Escapist/etc profiles that you have. When (not if) you offend someone, all it takes is for one popular outlet to get ahold of the offending post/tweet and your life is over.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Hmm... I wonder what Ryan Perez has "provided to gaming." Oh, wait, nobody asks that question because he has a Y chromosome and it's not a good question.

Yeah, far be it to see anybody EVER being cruel to a man. Not like losing his job for a few dumbass comments, that'd never happen.

Yeah, because getting in hot water over sexist remarks is totally the same as being the target of sexist remarks, guise. (Like, seriously, did anyone call, for instance, Nathan Fillion a "glorified booth babe" for being in and helping to promote a Halo game?)

Sexism? Really? How was this in any way sexist? This wasnt anti-women it was anti a specific person. By the logic of he insulted a woman therefore he hates women dont you hate men?

Let's put it this way - if someone calls someone "a [insert ethnicity-based insult here]," are they being racist? Obviously. They're being anti-[insert ethnicity in question here] as well as anti-[specific individual of ethnicity in question].

 

[Eyelicker]

I don't get why in gaming circles no one has a nice balanced view on woman. They're not all sluts and they're not all shining bastions of purity and goodness, they're just fucking people.

If this is actually what you think, we're definitely in agreement. People who respond to sexism by putting their head in the sand, people who only speak out against sexism because they think it will get them laid, and people who act sexist are all perpetuating the problem in different ways. And, as you said, these attitudes are pretty endemic on gaming websites. AFAIK, the Escapist is one of the least bad ones for this.

I like what you guys say here.

I'm honestly glad to see someone else entertain the possibility that the phony "white knight" attitude is a thing and it's just as big a part of the problem. I never see that notion addressed in these forum debates about sexism. Far more than the prevalence of the debate itself, I'm sick of that immediate reactionary attitude of "you're with us or you're part of the problem" with no in-between. Maybe they're genuine but they're so extreme sometimes that I can't help but feel it's an act put on just to LOOK like they're progressive.

Regarding Eyelicker's point, maybe that's why I don't necessarily categorize female characters in fiction based on strong/weak, objectified/non-objectified, etc. There are all kinds of men and women in the world, so it's not hard for me to see them as just...characters. Then again, I'm a self-professed privileged heterosexual man and prone to being horny at physical representations of women, from Half-Life to Dead or Alive. You won't catch me apologizing for that, but you'll also never catch me telling my girlfriend to get back in the kitchen. People aren't black and white.

And regarding Ryan Perez and Felicia Day, there's no question the dude was completely out of line. That said, shame on anyone who harassed or wished him harm on Twitter for it. Those that had the chance to respectfully inform or ignore him, and used it instead to condemn and destroy the other party for their ignorance, short-sightedness and immaturity (crimes that no one is innocent of, by the way)...they're no better at all.

White knights are the fucking worse part of the problem. They attract and empower the wrong kinds of girls to nerd bait and do all kinds of stupid attention seeking shit, when the quiet majority of girls don't actually give a fuck about sexism in gaming and just want to game.

I've become quite familiar with Felicia Day though all this and she is exactly that kind of cancerous being, and it sucks that Ryan Perez made such a huge mistake and lost his post because of someone like her, despite everything he says being right. Without white knights who off on telling other people that they arn't as enlightened as them, or backing anything remotely female, or with a noble name attached such a feminism, this wouldn't have happened.

The whole fucking thing is a huge more progressive-than-thou circle jerk.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Hmm... I wonder what Ryan Perez has "provided to gaming." Oh, wait, nobody asks that question because he has a Y chromosome and it's not a good question.

Yeah, far be it to see anybody EVER being cruel to a man. Not like losing his job for a few dumbass comments, that'd never happen.

Yeah, because getting in hot water over sexist remarks is totally the same as being the target of sexist remarks, guise. (Like, seriously, did anyone call, for instance, Nathan Fillion a "glorified booth babe" for being in and helping to promote a Halo game?)

Sexism? Really? How was this in any way sexist? This wasnt anti-women it was anti a specific person. By the logic of he insulted a woman therefore he hates women dont you hate men?

Let's put it this way - if someone calls someone "a [insert ethnicity-based insult here]," are they being racist? Obviously. They're being anti-[insert ethnicity in question here] as well as anti-[specific individual of ethnicity in question].

Except he wasn't insulting her based on her gender. his problem with her is not, she is a woman. It is that she gets massive amounts of attention from gamers for essentially sitting around looking pretty. He feels she contributes little to the medium other than some personality, a figure everybody likes and recognizes. I personally disagree since I like her show The Guild and feel that a prominent personality is valuble to any medium however accusing him of sexism is simply a knee jerk reaction we see all too comonly in our society. Insulting one woman makes you a misogynist in the eyes of many.

 

[Vault101]

White knights are the fucking worse part of the problem. They attract and empower the wrong kinds of girls to nerd bait and do all kinds of stupid attention seeking shit, when the quiet majority of girls don't actually give a fuck about sexism in gaming and just want to game.

I've become quite familiar with Felicia Day though all this and she is exactly that kind of cancerous being, and it sucks that Ryan Perez made such a huge mistake and lost his post because of someone like her, despite everything he says being right. Without white knights who off on telling other people that they arn't as enlightened as them, or backing anything remotely female, or with a noble name attached such a feminism, this wouldn't have happened.

The whole fucking thing is a huge more progressive-than-thou circle jerk.

nope. Id rather have a 100 white knights than some sexist asshole (not saying this guy was, different argument) I think "white knight" can be a term people throw around to justify themselfs

[quote/]when the quiet majority of girls don't actually give a fuck about sexism in gaming and just want to game.[/quote]

*snrrrrk* HAHAHAHAHAHA....oh god are you fucking serious? let me tell you somthing, I DO give a crap when people say stupid shit like this :http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/07/this-article-about-why-girls-suck-at-gaming-is-either-clumsy-satire-or-sexism/

it actually amkes me angry, it makes me angry that I am seen as less because I do not own a mighty penis

and I do give a crap and roll my eyes at a another "armour bikini" <- that kind of crap makes no one look good

[quote/]despite everything he says being right[/quote]

do you know felica day?..persoanlly? and beside that it doesnt matter who he was saying this too..it was a dickhead thing to do...you don;t go up to people are say "YOU! justify yourself to me" [i/]especially[/i] in his case when your not exactally hot shit yourself

[quote/]Without white knights who off on telling other people that they arn't as enlightened as them, or backing anything remotely female, or with a noble name attached such a feminism, this wouldn't have happened.[/quote]

it happned because as i said he was a dick..the whole "gender argument" certainly made it into the big deal it was but in the end...he was out of line..and still would have been had he said it to a guy

I find it funny you dislike white knights so much...but to me your coming across as an anti-white knight

a white knight acts as though he;s speaking for ladies in the name of "defending them" your acting as though you speak for ladies as in "nah, theres no probelm"

YOU...do not speak for me

 

[darlarosa]

What was the comment in relation to?
Has he made similar comments about other people?
What does he mean by contributed? Who qualifies as making contributions?
Is he only calling her a glorified booth babe because she is attractive, says she is a geek, and has a vagina?

In terms of contributing to gaming I would say she is one of the few females who is presented by the media consistently as a gamer. More than that she is a good actress, smart, seemingly nice according to those who have met her, and generally tries to be herself. I would say in a sense the greatest thing she seems to do is be herself unashamedly. Which is rare when "geek/nerd culture" is a high commodity, as so many people fake their interests.

The reason people got upset is that pretty girls tend to get a bad rap if they become popular for their geekiness or geeky appearance. It would be one thing if she goes around talking about how she was going to "bang" herself in the Dragon Age 2 DLC like some people(....oh Jessica Chobot); Or if she was faking her nerdiness and relying on her looks alone like a Olivia Mun(Who may be slightly geeky in real life...but my instincts tell me not really). Felicia Day has seemingly gotten by on relying on her talent more than anything, so comparing her to a Booth Babe seemed completely uncalled for. If he worded it differently or explained himself later it would be different. That is why people felt that his remarks were sexist.

I like Felicia Day, and I find his comments mystifying.

 

[Callate]

An interviewer can posit questions, even questions possibly controversial or offensive to his interview subject, without coming across as an asshole.

If he can't do so without making it clear that those controversial and/or offensive questions are at least as far removed as not coming directly from his own prejudices, he can't do his job. He shouldn't be allowed to interview people- he's being given special access to people who are normally inaccessible on the premise that he can do that job, and even if his employer is foolish enough to allow him to continue to do it badly, chances are excellent that said inaccessible people (i.e. celebrities) are going to cease volunteering to subject themselves to some abuse, possibly from not only the interviewer but his employer.

Frankly, from this limited snapshot, it sounds like they did exactly the right thing in firing his ass. I'm not going to cheer on anyone harassing him on Twitter or the like, but, well, that's the Internet for ya.

 

[RaNDM G]

Ryan's questions to Felicia were as follows: "I keep seeing [you] everywhere. Question: Do you matter at all? Do you even provide anything useful to gaming, besides "personality?" could you be considered nothing more than a glorified booth babe? You don't seem to add anything creative to the medium."

To answer the first question, does any voice on the internet matter at all?

To answer the second question, no. She's an actress. That's what she does. But internet fame and gamer cred often go hand in hand, kind of like the relationship between Nathan Fillion and Bungie.

As for what she does, Felicia Day is most popular for starring in two popular web series, Dr. Horrible and The Guild, the latter of which is a semi-autobiographical commentary on World of Warcraft. She also wrote and starred in Dragon Age: Redemption, during which she was working with BioWare. She is not a booth babe. She has an actual career, even though she's only been guest starring in television for the past year which seems pretty lazy to me.

Day was also a supporting character in the last season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, which rockets her geek cred up the Echeladder.

Funny. A quick Google search could have saved him his job.

 

[Savagezion]

snip

snip

Yeah, I agree that there's definitely questions that can be asked about Day's fanbase, if not in the exact way that this guy asked them haha. I also don't know if she's the right person to discuss this type of issue with, oddly enough - if I was an actor/actress, I'd personally be pretty hesitant to question a good portion of my fans for being my fans. I also think there's an extent to which this sort of "fans with crush" thing comes with the territory for attractive celebs.

Going back to what Hjalmar said about the "women are, men do" cultural construct, I do think it's interesting that we tend to as a society judge women much more harshly for having this sort of fanbase than men. So you don't see David Tennant attacked for having a legion of squeeing fangirls, but we do see Felicia Day attacked for having a legion of squeeing fanboys.

Justin Beiber, New Kids on the Block, Ricky Martin, Fabio.

 

[RaNDM G]

@Savagezion: I would just like to say, I like New Kids on the Block.


I mean... How can you not like New Kids on the Block? They're manly as Hell.

 

[DocBalance]

And because nobody answered my question, I went crying to Google. To my surprise, I found this article [http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2012/07/01/the-wreck-of-the-s-s-censorship-or-how-writers-steer-their-careers-into-the-rocks/] on top. So go and read it because it's by Chuck Wendig. I still didn't get my answers, but I love the dude's writing.

That...was just fantastic.

 

[tlgAlaska]

It would be one thing if she goes around talking about how she was going to "bang" herself in the Dragon Age 2 DLC like some people(....oh Jessica Chobot)

Well... she did a video about playing with herself ;P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DxsVzYUle0

 

[Savagezion]

They got browbeat by the public once they got famous though. My nieces like them too. I am just pointing out that the general public judges both men and women. Justin Beiber has insane talent but people judge him because teenage girls cry when he talks to them. Remember when Timberlake was judged harshly 10 years ago?

 

[RaNDM G]

@Savagezion: No. Because Justin Timberlake actually has talent. [small]/obligatory zinger[/small]

[sub]*casually changes the subject back to Ryan Perez before this thread is derailed*[/sub]

So I found this article on gamesparked.com which I'm sure must have been referenced by now. Basically, Ryan does this sort of thing as a critic, so anyone who knew of him before his Twitter posts shouldn't be surprised.

Is he a dick? Yes...

That's my entire argument really.

 

[Vault101]

They're both bad, but being a girl I can see how you'd get off on the white knighting.

I do fucking not....

but that said while I understand the concept of white knighting I don't think Ive ever actually seen it in its "worse" form...just because a guy has a certian opinion on thease issues doesnt make him a white knight



[quote/]Haha, dat article, maybe abit extreme, but not totally without merit. [/quote]

the article was pure bullshit, built on nothing but the absolute worst steryotypes and skewed veiws , it was painful to read...I'm not sure you know what its like to be sterotyped like that

those steryotypes (to me) in a way say "women are all the same, they are not complex induviduals" <- its even a form of dehumanising

[quote/]It's not saying you're less or inherently "worse", just not as [/b] psychologically wired for most gaming and competition.[/b] There's a reason girls are much more common in more social games such as WoW, and are next to nonexistant in high level competition.[/quote]
you know what? thats stupid and irrelevant.....weather or not thats true or pseudo science...any girl that expesses an interest in games is obviously going to be breaking some of those "general" Ideas...much like plenty of females are tomboys as opoase to feminine

sure, I can see that many females simply arnt drawn to alot of thease things...but there are those that are..and I call bullshit on anyone who says the "women" issue amongst the "gaming comunity" is fine...its not,

[quote/]Because you choose to get all butt hurt about chainmail bikini's doesn't mean every other chick does. [/quote]
it depends on context...I'm hardly going to give a crap about Bayonetta or the chick from loli-pop chainsaw

charachters like Miranda from Mass Effect or Morragan from dragon age don't bother me that much since theres more to them than the T&A...and in their case the T&A is "somwhat" justified

in fact asdie from catowomans suspiciously defective zipper from Batman AC I actually can;t think of the last time I was annoyed over a chainmail Bikini..so hey everyone wins

[quote/]Girls I know who [/quote]
anecdotal evidence..proves nothing

[quote/]game don't bat an eyelid and love the cartoonish worlds as much as I do.
Everyone in these fictions are usually based on "ideal" standards, I don't get butthurt when guys have costumes designed to show off their abs despite this being vunerable, [/quote]
ah..this old argument

this is a seperate issue so I'll keep it to the short version but when men and women in fiction are wearing thease things [b/]there is a difference[/b]

women are there for the veiwing pleasure of men, men are there as "power fantasies" examples of what they think is cool

many make the mistake of saying charachters like the guys from gears of war or Kratos are the "male Ideal" and therefore attractive to women...let me tell you spmthing..I wouldn't want Kratos within 1000 fucking miles of me...and the guys from gears? with their freakish muscles and scowly faces?...eeehh

I'm not saying no women would fidn them attractive (hell some of the thing some women apretnyl find attractive...) and thats the thing, womens sexuality and what they find attractive can actually be different to guys hence the popularity of somthing liek twilgiht and why they like Edward..the pnce....you know frollo from hunchback of notre dame?..some ladies want a peice of that wrinkly old ass...seriously

[quote/]infact I actively use it for inspiration sometimes. On many health and fitness forums I go on we have "ideal vidya target bodies" threads, featuring all kinds of ridiculous looking unrealistic specimens. It's not objectification or setting unrealistic expectations that I'll never be as ripped as Bryan Fury because it's a fucking cartoon world and that's what people look like there. The same way that chicks have Perfect hourglass figures with DD's. It's a cartoon and aesthetics comes before functionality. Honestly, I bet there are some less butthurt, more reasonable girls out there using Ivy from Soul Caliber as inspiration to diet and exercise.[/quote]
well thats nice and all but it shows your really not understanding why somone might have a problem with it, like I said its not exactally the same with male and female charachters...and "people may use it as inspiration" is no excuse

the thing is somtimes it adds nothing to the work in question, and renforces "a girls vaule is in her looks" but then the apearnece thing isnt as important to me as the females role in the story

[quote/]Fuck this whole; girls must all look like Chell or Alyx Vance or it's sexist bullshit. I want my cartoon characters to be ridiculous.[/quote]
*sigh* do you honestly think that?..again..point missed by a mile..its that same stupid strawman argument people use IT MUST BE X OR Y...[b/]thats not what peopel mean when they praise charachters like that[/b]

we all know its incredibly stupid to say "all x should do y" with any creative medium

does it bother you that Alyx Vance looks the way she does? does it bother you Chell isnt sporting breasts too big to fit into that apature science tank top?....my point is depends on what the work in trying to get across...thease charachters are not there for the purpose of fanservice. in thease cases they got important shit to do, peopel like them because they look "real" they are attractive but not in an outlandish way...peopel like that, and it makes it easyer for me to identify and sympathise with thease charachters (but again...personality and role in the story is still a big factor)

people like that fact that comander shepard (femshep) wears a full suit of armour, where she doesnt have her midriff showing...if her midriff is showing..well why? that would be retarded..it would be so fucking retarded it would make my brain hurt....

also I notice you use the word "cartoon" alot...I assume your talking about the absurdity of the words and not the visual style because very few games I know (save for japanease stuff) use that asthetic

[quote/]Attacking anyone on twitter is a bad idea and was dumb as hell of him, but whatever, she's pretty much a failed actress with minor parts in Buffy and Supernatural, did some voice work off the back of that in 4 games, only one of which didn't suck, and made some "LOL XD so nerdy!" sexually charged parody of WOW and some terrible songs, all based on being a "GRRL gAMER" all contributing to the cancerous attension seeking entity of "Gamer Culture" where everyone wears quirky retro t shirts with thick glasses and nintendo tattoos, and hangs out talking about being such a nerd without actually playing games or even discussing them with any depth. Yeah, he was right to question her worth, but he should have done it in an article instead of a incendiary twitter attack.[/quote]
really? thats just your interpretation of her...and this shows unfortunatly a women in the "gaming" spotlight is going to get this kind of critism...

as people say you can;t please everyone


[quote/]I am an anti white knight, I fucking hate white knights because it's one of the most irritating pathetic aspects of male behaviour and gets in the way of objective discussion and criticism.[/quote]
yeah, and I hate it when peopel use white night as an excuse to refenforce the Idea "there are no problems"

yes, I can understand your second point..the fact is anythign involving the female gender is going to have 10 different opinions for every person..its a clusterfuck...but it still stand that in this case the guy was out of line, and pointin that out does not make you a white knight


[quote/]
Lol okay sugartits [/quote]

the fuck?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Girls I know who game don't bat an eyelid! Yet me and Vault are here right in front of you saying we have a problem and you are all like 'Yeah but you don't matter! But my friends who are girls do! Because they agree with me!' Seems Legit. Over sexualised female characters are a problem because they make female gamers feel unwelcome and uncomfortable. Would you play a beat em up with 10 appropriately dressed women and 6 male strippers?

I also love the way you insinuated everyone who has a problem with sexy characters has a body image problem. Really classy. Maybe we just want female characters to be more significant than being eye candy.

Secondly just because Felicia Day is an actress who likes games. Does not mean she is attention seeking and nerd baiting. She plays games...not entirely sure why you think she doesn't.
Maybe she just ya know LIKES GAMES.

You are so eager to bring up these female friends of yours who play games and yet it's so hard to wrap you mind around the fact that a famous woman might also be a gamer?

 

[BrionJames]

Hmm... I wonder what Ryan Perez has "provided to gaming." Oh, wait, nobody asks that question because he has a Y chromosome and it's not a good question.

I very much agree with you. On the other hand, did she answer the question? If she did what was it? Also why does anyone have to validate themselves with what they've "provided to gaming"? We as consumers probably have "provided to gaming" more than either of these individuals, seeing as how we purchase the products and keep the cogs turning. Lastly, who gives a shit about either of these people, is Ubisoft creating a sequel to XIII? Is Squaresoft becoming its own entity again? Will they ever make a Shadowrun game that is basically a current-gen version of the Sega Genesis version? These are questions I'm sure a lot of us would like answered. Not this petty nonsense. My apologies, I have a tendency to get into tangents when I visit a website dedicated to gaming and find the discussions lacking.

 

[Hjalmar Fryklund]

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Yeah, I agree that there's definitely questions that can be asked about Day's fanbase, if not in the exact way that this guy asked them haha. I also don't know if she's the right person to discuss this type of issue with, oddly enough - if I was an actor/actress, I'd personally be pretty hesitant to question a good portion of my fans for being my fans. I also think there's an extent to which this sort of "fans with crush" thing comes with the territory for attractive celebs.

I think to a certain degree that this is something that should be expected and at least tolerated. Now I will admit ignorance about Felicia Day, I haven't seen anything from her and I only know about her credentials from what I have read in this thread, but I would say you could criticise someone for being an "all looks celebrity," or someone playing up the "pretty boy/girl, omg" part of their image. Not saying that I am applying these two image types to Day (or that they can/should be), of course.

Going back to what Hjalmar said about the "women are, men do" cultural construct, I do think it's interesting that we tend to as a society judge women much more harshly for having this sort of fanbase than men. So you don't see David Tennant attacked for having a legion of squeeing fangirls, but we do see Felicia Day attacked for having a legion of squeeing fanboys.

On some level it could be seen as a side effect of feminism criticising that particular construct. Bashing a woman for cashing (even a little) in on her looks seems more acceptable now that "da evul feminazis said so!"

 

[Wicky_42]

i think sexism is wrong(and most -isms)

Judaism? Constructivism? Baptism? Atheism? Patriotism? Colloquialism? Heterosexism?

Isn't heterosexism the belief that heterosexuality is inherently better and more deserving of respect than other forms of sexual orientation? Because I'm kind of against that.

Juzzayin'.

Maybe, I dunno. If so then yeah, sure.