The Female Protagonist Fail

[Camaranth]

I was playing Fable 2 as a female lead and randomly decided to marry this NPC. After the wedding scene my character swung around, dipped the guy and gave him a smooch which just totally broke the vague sense of immersion. I realize my character was a big tough monster ass-kicking woman but would it be too much to ask for a female lead who acted even remotely feminine outside of battle?

I've noticed this in some other games too where there is a gender choice in character character, it feels like all that's changed is the character appearance but no change in behavior (argue all you want men and women do act differently!). And I realize that developing two different mechanics for essentially the same character is a ridiculous thing to ask for so let's keep this hypothetical.

So what are your opinions about female leads acting (slightly) female and do you have any other gaming examples where it just failed? Are there any games where this actually worked?

 

[CODE-D]

Dont open a can of worms that cant be closed.

 

[Commander Jack Rankin]

I'm a big fan of Fallout's Black Widow perk. Since most of the enemies and NPCs are male, it's more useful than the flipside perk Lady Killer.

 

[Vryyk]

I'm a big fan of Fallout's Black Widow perk. Since most of the enemies and NPCs are male, it's more useful than the flipside perk Lady Killer.

In New Vegas they changed this so each gender can receive both. I'm sure in retrospect it seemed a bit silly to them.

 

[RatRace123]

A lot of games are gender neutral in their actions, a man and woman probably would shoot a gun or swing a sword the same way.
Though in some cases it's a bit weird, like sitting, especially in games where the characters wear skirts.
Women (especially in skirts) wouldn't sit the same way as a man..

 

[Camaranth]

A lot of games are gender neutral in their actions, a man and woman probably would shoot a gun or swing a sword the same way.
Though in some cases it's a bit weird, like sitting, especially in games where the characters wear skirts.
Women (especially in skirts) wouldn't sit the same way as a man..

Having the same combat behavior is fine because as you stated swinging a sword is swinging a sword.
Yeah the skirt bit, that really bugged me in ME2 when I was chatting with Garrus.

 

[Xaositect]

"Kickass" guys are cliched and overused.

"Kickass" chicks are hip and cool.

In reality, both are just as shit, only the female protagonists get let off the hook by a lot of folks. The kind who idolise female Shepard for example.

 

[badgersprite]

Yeah, what bugs me more is inconsistency. I'm fine if my protagonist is a tough, tomboyish, ass kicking chick or a feminine girly girl who gets to be dainty and womanly, but, designers, seriously, you don't get to switch from one personality to the other in the space of a few seconds. Yes, the way they move is frequently a part of that, but also how they talk and what they say.

 

[oplinger]

What we need is a rise in gender roles. That's how we solve this problem.

Force healers and sorcerers to be girls. Wizards and warriors can be big beefy guys. And that's the only way it should be!

...Anyway, it's not a ridiculous thing to ask for. It's ridiculous to not ask for it.

Unless we just like manly women.

Of course it's also a real easy thing to make go wrong. Imagine making women different. Men can do something women can't, or vice versa. Someone will get upset.

However dialogue choices and such aside. It wouldn't be all that difficult to tweak animations for women and men. It really is not a ridiculous thing to ask for. Not in this day and age anyway.

 

[AssassinJoe]

Some people may feel that a female protagonist who acts feminine wouldn't make sense in a game. I've noticed that when game developers try to make a feminine female protagonist, they end up making a chick whose tough on the outside, but weak and sensitive on the inside. As much as I hate to admit it, it seems noone has reached the middle-ground yet.

 

[Camaranth]

Yeah, what bugs me more is inconsistency. I'm fine if my protagonist is a tough, tomboyish, ass kicking chick or a feminine girly girl who gets to be dainty and womanly, but, designers, seriously, you don't get to switch from one personality to the other in the space of a few seconds.

Surely there is some room for a middle ground here, where a tough character can show a moment of compassion or vulnerability without looking totally weak willed or doing a complete 180. I just can't think of a game where this has happened....

Of course it's also a real easy thing to make go wrong. Imagine making women different. Men can do something women can't, or vice versa. Someone will get upset.

However dialogue choices and such aside. It wouldn't be all that difficult to tweak animations for women and men. It really is not a ridiculous thing to ask for. Not in this day and age anyway.

I'm not sure about that; in the right context and handled well having a (slight!) difference in abilities wouldn't be a bad thing. even something small and simple like the male character getting an extra point towards strength at the start. No reason a female lead couldn't put more points into the strength options to "catch-up or surpass" the natural male advantage. Obviously there would need to be an equal and opposite advantage to the female lead, a la black widow vs lady killer

Note: I'm just picking on strength because its the easy and obvious natural difference between the sexes not because I think all men are automatically stronger than women.

 

[badgersprite]

Yeah, what bugs me more is inconsistency. I'm fine if my protagonist is a tough, tomboyish, ass kicking chick or a feminine girly girl who gets to be dainty and womanly, but, designers, seriously, you don't get to switch from one personality to the other in the space of a few seconds.

Surely there is some room for a middle ground here, where a tough character can show a moment of compassion or vulnerability without looking totally weak willed or doing a complete 180. I just can't think of a game where this has happened....

Of course. I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. What I notice more is when scenes that are previously based on the male model for selectable-gender protagonists are immediately followed by a section of female-only dialogue or a female-only scene where she moves and acts completely differently. It becomes quite jarring when you have that personality switch.

Bear in mind I feel the same way when things like this happen with morality meters too, so it's not exclusive to this issue.

 

[Camaranth]

Oh I see what you mean now, badgersprite.
Why does that transition never come off as smooth or in character? especially when there are so many good character driven stories being told in this media?

I feel that morality meters tend to be a law unto themselves, and its particularly jarring for your decisions not to be notice by other members of the party. you'll tell me off for blackmailing a guy to get a discount but don't care that I just shot an unarmed prisoner in the head..?

 

[Trolldor]

"Kickass" guys are cliched and overused.

"Kickass" chicks are hip and cool.

In reality, both are just as shit, only the female protagonists get let off the hook by a lot of folks. The kind who idolise female Shepard for example.

On the matter of Shepard, there was quite a fury over the request that the world and environment recognise your character's gender beyond a 'he/she' option.

Like in Vampire: The Masquerade some of the NPCs hit on you if you're female (Haven't done a full male playthrough yet, not as exciting the second time around.)

I like my character choice to matter at all levels.

 

[Ravison]

However dialogue choices and such aside. It wouldn't be all that difficult to tweak animations for women and men. It really is not a ridiculous thing to ask for. Not in this day and age anyway.

Technically, it's not a big deal. Probably an extra few megabytes. but all of the extra work on little things we expect from game makers, even when justified, end up causing them to make shorter games, and then no one's happy.

I feel like I'm parroting Shamus Young here, but I have to agree with him about this.

 

[Camaranth]

On the matter of Shepard, there was quite a fury over the request that the world and environment recognise your character's gender beyond a 'he/she' option.

How so?

I don't really have an issue with the designers saying "character is a chick, so what?" (for the most part that is the attitude I prefer) its just when they character is clearly based off the male model and there has been no effort to even remotely suggest the character is different beyond the avatar. KOTOR had different characters flirt with you in the bars bars depending on what gender you chose.

Technically, it's not a big deal. Probably an extra few megabytes. but all of the extra work on little things we expect from game makers, even when justified, end up causing them to make shorter games, and then no one's happy.

Certainly don't want that.

 

[Javarock]

Well, I agree.

The thing is some games do this already...

What was it?, Mount and Blade I think where the male had two or so more points in strength to start off with, While the female had the same advantage in Agility. But not to say with a few levels you can over come this start. But yeah its no where near where it needs ot be if we are to have equal sided games where one sides experince doesn't feel a slight alteration of the others. But on the flip side they can't go overboard with the diffrences... Its like walking a tight rope.

 

[northeast rower]

Three exceptions (mild spoilers):

1) Dead Space 2- Ellie. Watching her break down was really what convinced me that she wasn't just another ripoff of masculine figures, while watching her rescue you by flying through a ceiling in a gunship convinced me that she could handle herself.

2) Grand Theft Auto IV- Michelle. This was an incredible sidestory in the main game. Just play through and you'll see what I'm talking about.

3) Uncharted 2- Elena as well as Chloe. Obvious examples, but both represent a sort of sexy allure while also being kickass.

 

[pspman45]

what did you expect from fable? they use the same animation, so they only had to make it once. as long as all NPCs share the same skeleton, and the both genders of hero have the same skeleton, all they do is swap out the models and have the scene play out

 

[Camaranth]

oh I know Fable isn't the greatest game and far too easy to pick on but this is the scene that was so jarringly obvious I really started noticing it in other games where I picked the gender of my character. I was hoping to find a game where this had been done better.