This is definitely a morally gray choice. You have to bear in mind exactly who you would be giving the base to. If you trust Cerberus, have fun. I personally didn't. The only way I would have kept that base alive would have been to hand it over to the council, or possibly the alliance. Not the people who (Before the conflict started, mind) were experimenting with mind control and the thorian.
It seems like it would be giving a massive bomb to the most xenophobic people you can find, and then casually pointing out where a lot of people they hate hang out. Then giving them a stern warning they shouldn't use it, knowing full well the second that you turn your back there'll be an explosion where you just pointed.
As I said, Shepard has killed about 1.5 Reapers with relative ease and I have no doubt that if Cerberus tried to build a Reaper Shepard could destroy it, and even the threat of Shepard being able to take it down should keep them earnest.
No, the problem with giving it to the Illusive Man is that you're giving it to the ILLUSIVE MAN. He's a shady, super-secret, and creepy ************ that's basically pulled your leg like 3 times already(AKA using you as a distraction for danger without consulting you AKA playing with your lives).
While studying the Reaper thingy is quite smart, you're giving it to the Illusive Man. Giving it to the Council(while they might destroy it), is more smart as you know what they'd do. And since they only gave you 2 choices, between destroying it so that no one can use it or giving it to the extremely shady and possibly evil man; the best choice is destroying it(at least in my opinion).
Can you name a science fiction movie where tinkering around in an ancient alien vessel has led to a -good- thing?
Seriously, if a dead reaper can make a science team go crazy and kill each other, why wouldn't it happen again? If anything, I thought the silliest decision was -not- blowing it up.
Actually, I'd say blowing up the Reaper has perfectly logical choices behind it.
I base this on what Legion and the Geth do; follow their own technological path. They were offered Reaper technology, and they rejected it. I can see plenty of reasons, none of which have to do with ethics, to do so. The main one being that it is Reaper technology. This has shown numerous times to not only backfire, but turn you into a mindless slave in the process. Raper technology is dangerous and uncontrollable. It could very easily be used against you by the creatures that made it. This is why I always blow up the Human Reaper. It's to unpredictable and could easily lead to your demise. A perfectly logical conclusion that has nothing to do with the fact that it was made from a human smoothie. I just wish they had made Shepard's dialogue different so it didn't sound like he was disposing of it just to be a morally good angel.
However, I do agree that every single character berating you for keeping it is stupid, especially since the game is designed so that numerous characters can support keeping it. It's a huge dick move on the part of the writers.
Looking For Alaska said:
Firstly, I fought the ridiculous boss (who I will cover in another post because I can not comprehend why a supremely powerful, cold, uncaring machine race would want to make a human reaper to punch spaceships)
I'm one of the few insane people who thinks that was actually a good part of the story, for reasons contained within this huge post;
Many people have wondered why the Reapers constantly allow civilizations to build itself up, only to swiftly destroy it. There are many theories as to why. You could think that the Reapers are just using organics as a food source, but arguably there are easier ways to cultivate and sustain organic food than allowing civilizations to constantly evolve and then fall. Rather I think they do it because the Reaper's culture involves preserving the most advanced and valuable species for eternity as Reapers. Reapers are not one single species, but rather a combination of all species ascended into a higher form of life. The best the galaxy has ever produced, all united under one banner.
The Reapers were not just trying to build any ordinary Reaper. They wanted to build a Human Reaper. Not to lead a massive attack against the Citadel, but rather becuase this is the Reaper's culture. They believe Humans are the species with the greatest potential. If they were just trying to build a generic Reaper, they could have used any species. Arguably it would be a lot easier to target something other than human colonies. But they specifically wanted to turn humans into the Reapers. Think about Harbinger's dialogue. He refers to the process of turning humans into genetic paste to fuel the larva's growth as "ascension". Why use that word in particular? Why not call it "assimilation"? Or "consumption"? "Ascension" implies that they are raising humans to be what they consider to be a higher form of life. They see value in humans.
But what about Sovereign? He didn't seem to like organics at all. Why turn them into Reapers. Well I believe that the Reapers may have considered the current organic "crop" to be a failure, not worthy of being turned into Reapers. This could be for a number of reasons. I think it's because the galaxy had a very diverse category of sentient lifeforms, with no one species appearing to be dominant. The Protheans appeared to be the undisputed rulers of the galaxy at the time of their downfall. This is the Reapers idea of the perfect organic race to harvest. One species that follows their predetermined line of technological advancement, rather than a handful of species that all do so at the same time. So the Reapers were all set to just wipe every race out and start from scratch. What changed this? Well humans killed a Reaper. The game often alludes to the idea that by killing a Reaper, we grabbed their attention. To delay the extinction cycle and kill a powerful Reaper in the process would probably interest them. So Harbinger now thinks that humans are worthy of ascension into the ultimate life form.
If you're wondering why they didn't do this to the Protheans, it's because the Prothean Reaper failed. Instead they turned them into the Collectors, so that they would still serve a purpose.
In short; Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength.
"Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength."
I could be wrong but I believe someone (Mordin or Legion, I think) in one of the conversations that "they have no culture." But maybe he was talking about collectors. Or maybe I have a disease that causes me to imagine facts that make me seem correct, I don't know.
He was talking about the Collectors in that respect. I agree with a lot of the posters already in saying that the reason that the good ending is blowing it up is to prevent Cerberus from using it to illicit ends, whereas blowing it up prevents Cerberus from becoming too powerful. In my paragon play through I certainly didn't trust hardly anything coming out of the Illusive Man's mount, on the Renegade course it is more of a "I'll do absolutely anything to win" type of character.
This is definitely a morally gray choice. You have to bear in mind exactly who you would be giving the base to. If you trust Cerberus, have fun. I personally didn't. The only way I would have kept that base alive would have been to hand it over to the council, or possibly the alliance. Not the people who (Before the conflict started, mind) were experimenting with mind control and the thorian.
It seems like it would be giving a massive bomb to the most xenophobic people you can find, and then casually pointing out where a lot of people they hate hang out. Then giving them a stern warning they shouldn't use it, knowing full well the second that you turn your back there'll be an explosion where you just pointed.
As I said, Shepard has killed about 1.5 Reapers with relative ease and I have no doubt that if Cerberus tried to build a Reaper Shepard could destroy it, and even the threat of Shepard being able to take it down should keep them earnest.
Not saying they would necessarily build a reaper. That would be way too overt. I'm saying no matter what tech they pull out of there, Cerberus shouldn't have first crack at it. Even if they did something, it's not as if they would tell Shepard it (They've lied to him before, and he fell for it.)
When Miranda, someone who has worked with the Illusive Man pretty much all her life, who knows the organization better than just about anyone, says that you shouldn't give the place to Cerberus, I would be inclined to believe her.
Can you name a science fiction movie where tinkering around in an ancient alien vessel has led to a -good- thing?
Seriously, if a dead reaper can make a science team go crazy and kill each other, why wouldn't it not happen again? If anything, I thought the silliest decision was -not- blowing it up.
I'm one of the few insane people who thinks that was actually a good part of the story, for reasons contained within this huge post;
Many people have wondered why the Reapers constantly allow civilizations to build itself up, only to swiftly destroy it. There are many theories as to why. You could think that the Reapers are just using organics as a food source, but arguably there are easier ways to cultivate and sustain organic food than allowing civilizations to constantly evolve and then fall. Rather I think they do it because the Reaper's culture involves preserving the most advanced and valuable species for eternity as Reapers. Reapers are not one single species, but rather a combination of all species ascended into a higher form of life. The best the galaxy has ever produced, all united under one banner.
The Reapers were not just trying to build any ordinary Reaper. They wanted to build a Human Reaper. Not to lead a massive attack against the Citadel, but rather becuase this is the Reaper's culture. They believe Humans are the species with the greatest potential. If they were just trying to build a generic Reaper, they could have used any species. Arguably it would be a lot easier to target something other than human colonies. But they specifically wanted to turn humans into the Reapers. Think about Harbinger's dialogue. He refers to the process of turning humans into genetic paste to fuel the larva's growth as "ascension". Why use that word in particular? Why not call it "assimilation"? Or "consumption"? "Ascension" implies that they are raising humans to be what they consider to be a higher form of life. They see value in humans.
But what about Sovereign? He didn't seem to like organics at all. Why turn them into Reapers. Well I believe that the Reapers may have considered the current organic "crop" to be a failure, not worthy of being turned into Reapers. This could be for a number of reasons. I think it's because the galaxy had a very diverse category of sentient lifeforms, with no one species appearing to be dominant. The Protheans appeared to be the undisputed rulers of the galaxy at the time of their downfall. This is the Reapers idea of the perfect organic race to harvest. One species that follows their predetermined line of technological advancement, rather than a handful of species that all do so at the same time. So the Reapers were all set to just wipe every race out and start from scratch. What changed this? Well humans killed a Reaper. The game often alludes to the idea that by killing a Reaper, we grabbed their attention. To delay the extinction cycle and kill a powerful Reaper in the process would probably interest them. So Harbinger now thinks that humans are worthy of ascension into the ultimate life form.
If you're wondering why they didn't do this to the Protheans, it's because the Prothean Reaper failed. Instead they turned them into the Collectors, so that they would still serve a purpose.
In short; Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength.
That's consistent when you take a few pieces of evidence...
Legion asserts that the Reaper known as Sovereign was a composite entity of thousands of minds working as a collective. It's possible that a Reaper is a kind of hive mind constructed of the minds of an entire civilisation. Add in to this that the concept art for the human Reaper showed it being a part of a regular Reaper:
and it's likely that the human reaper is actually the norm for Reapers. Perhaps Sovereign was 'anonymised' so that no one would realise what it was or maybe Sovereign's parent species just doesn't look like anything we'd recognise.
There's a reasonable explanation for Soveriegn and the other thousand Reapers have a very similar appearance. In one of the pictures you linked, it shows the Human Reaper shoved into an outer shell that looks similar to Sovereign's body, so one could come to the conclusion that the Reaper place their true bodies inside protective shells to grant them space flight.
Things like this could have been explained just by walking through the derelict Reaper, but that level is just wasted potential. I can't believe we walked through a Reaper and all we learned about it was that they are powered by big blue cores of energy.
No, the problem with giving it to the Illusive Man is that you're giving it to the ILLUSIVE MAN. He's a shady, super-secret, and creepy ************ that's basically pulled your leg like 3 times already(AKA using you as a distraction for danger without consulting you AKA playing with your lives).
While studying the Reaper thingy is quite smart, you're giving it to the Illusive Man. Giving it to the Council(while they might destroy it), is more smart as you know what they'd do. And since they only gave you 2 choices, between destroying it so that no one can use it or giving it to the extremely shady and possibly evil man; the best choice is destroying it(at least in my opinion).
I trust the council/alliance as much as I trust the elusive man. Just because Council "represents" all species does not mean they make great choices. Though to be honest I hate the alliance the most. The second Shepard becomes a spectre, they send him/her out to multiple locations to clean up their mess. Are you KIDDING ME!? I finally gain some ground for human kind and you make me your ****ing janitor!? Ungrateful alliance pricks.
At least with Cerberus, you already know they are fishy. While the Alliance uses pretty uniforms to fool you into believing they are good people. Yeah, I didn't like Admiral Hackett. Not because I believe he is a bad character, but because he used me as a janitor more often than Cerberus did. All under the flag of "for humanity".
I could be wrong but I believe someone (Mordin or Legion, I think) in one of the conversations that "they have no culture." But maybe he was talking about collectors. Or maybe I have a disease that causes me to imagine facts that make me seem correct, I don't know.
This is definitely a morally gray choice. You have to bear in mind exactly who you would be giving the base to. If you trust Cerberus, have fun. I personally didn't. The only way I would have kept that base alive would have been to hand it over to the council, or possibly the alliance. Not the people who (Before the conflict started, mind) were experimenting with mind control and the thorian.
It seems like it would be giving a massive bomb to the most xenophobic people you can find, and then casually pointing out where a lot of people they hate hang out. Then giving them a stern warning they shouldn't use it, knowing full well the second that you turn your back there'll be an explosion where you just pointed.
As I said, Shepard has killed about 1.5 Reapers with relative ease and I have no doubt that if Cerberus tried to build a Reaper Shepard could destroy it, and even the threat of Shepard being able to take it down should keep them earnest.
Not saying they would necessarily build a reaper. That would be way too overt. I'm saying no matter what tech they pull out of there, Cerberus shouldn't have first crack at it. Even if they did something, it's not as if they would tell Shepard it (They've lied to him before, and he fell for it.)
When Miranda, someone who has worked with the Illusive Man pretty much all her life, who knows the organization better than just about anyone, says that you shouldn't give the place to Cerberus, I would be inclined to believe her.
This is my big problem with ME2. Nothing really happens. It's like Matrix 2.
At the end of ME1 you had just kicked the proxy race's ass (the Geth) and were now on to kick some reaper butt. Then, instead of letting you do that, ME2 introduced just another proxy race (the Collectors) whose ass you had to kick.
It was basically ME1 with less interesting party members and no plot (9 unrelated crew gathering missions and 9 unrelated personal missions don't count as a plot).
For me, it's basically this, with a side order of being unable to ***** out the Illusive Man for being a goddamn monster two years ago. Remember, he needs you as much as you need him, that's a recipe for being able to chew his ass out, but you never get that option.
Can you name a science fiction movie where tinkering around in an ancient alien vessel has led to a -good- thing?
Seriously, if a dead reaper can make a science team go crazy and kill each other, why wouldn't it not happen again? If anything, I thought the silliest decision was -not- blowing it up.
Yes, the very same tech that the reapers left behind so every advanced species can use it to be backfired later on. Only through the tampering of the Keepers, did it keep the reapers at bay.
I'm one of the few insane people who thinks that was actually a good part of the story, for reasons contained within this huge post;
Many people have wondered why the Reapers constantly allow civilizations to build itself up, only to swiftly destroy it. There are many theories as to why. You could think that the Reapers are just using organics as a food source, but arguably there are easier ways to cultivate and sustain organic food than allowing civilizations to constantly evolve and then fall. Rather I think they do it because the Reaper's culture involves preserving the most advanced and valuable species for eternity as Reapers. Reapers are not one single species, but rather a combination of all species ascended into a higher form of life. The best the galaxy has ever produced, all united under one banner.
The Reapers were not just trying to build any ordinary Reaper. They wanted to build a Human Reaper. Not to lead a massive attack against the Citadel, but rather becuase this is the Reaper's culture. They believe Humans are the species with the greatest potential. If they were just trying to build a generic Reaper, they could have used any species. Arguably it would be a lot easier to target something other than human colonies. But they specifically wanted to turn humans into the Reapers. Think about Harbinger's dialogue. He refers to the process of turning humans into genetic paste to fuel the larva's growth as "ascension". Why use that word in particular? Why not call it "assimilation"? Or "consumption"? "Ascension" implies that they are raising humans to be what they consider to be a higher form of life. They see value in humans.
But what about Sovereign? He didn't seem to like organics at all. Why turn them into Reapers. Well I believe that the Reapers may have considered the current organic "crop" to be a failure, not worthy of being turned into Reapers. This could be for a number of reasons. I think it's because the galaxy had a very diverse category of sentient lifeforms, with no one species appearing to be dominant. The Protheans appeared to be the undisputed rulers of the galaxy at the time of their downfall. This is the Reapers idea of the perfect organic race to harvest. One species that follows their predetermined line of technological advancement, rather than a handful of species that all do so at the same time. So the Reapers were all set to just wipe every race out and start from scratch. What changed this? Well humans killed a Reaper. The game often alludes to the idea that by killing a Reaper, we grabbed their attention. To delay the extinction cycle and kill a powerful Reaper in the process would probably interest them. So Harbinger now thinks that humans are worthy of ascension into the ultimate life form.
If you're wondering why they didn't do this to the Protheans, it's because the Prothean Reaper failed. Instead they turned them into the Collectors, so that they would still serve a purpose.
In short; Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength.
That's consistent when you take a few pieces of evidence...
Legion asserts that the Reaper known as Sovereign was a composite entity of thousands of minds working as a collective. It's possible that a Reaper is a kind of hive mind constructed of the minds of an entire civilisation. Add in to this that the concept art for the human Reaper showed it being a part of a regular Reaper:
and it's likely that the human reaper is actually the norm for Reapers. Perhaps Sovereign was 'anonymised' so that no one would realise what it was or maybe Sovereign's parent species just doesn't look like anything we'd recognise.
What the hell is Sovereign? Im glad someone finally addressed the question. If all reapers are based on an organism that sovereign squid thing was weird as. I think that they take the most promising race and collect it into a hivemind by which they become a higher form of life or "multiple platforms" as legion puts it. Protheans was no contest but the humans and the other species squabbled and faught for dominance, a councel being the least usefull thing to decide which species is strongest. Would soveriegn not have used the turians? He did select one as his representative and at the end his avatar.
Blowing it up is safer in every sense, removing whatever Reaper tech may potentially reactivate and pose a threat/corrupt anyone investigating it, as well as keeping it out of the Illusive Man's hands.
Hell, even trying to preserve it for the Council/Alliance is too risky as Cerberus are already proven to have massive resources at their disposal, more than likely enough to find a way to hijack the Collector base.
That's why it's a Paragon choice. Renegades prefer to screw the risks, for the chance of a higher reward; That's exactly what keeping the base intact is. Remember, a "Renegade" choice isn't always an "Evil" choice, this isn't like KotOR.
I'm one of the few insane people who thinks that was actually a good part of the story, for reasons contained within this huge post;
Many people have wondered why the Reapers constantly allow civilizations to build itself up, only to swiftly destroy it. There are many theories as to why. You could think that the Reapers are just using organics as a food source, but arguably there are easier ways to cultivate and sustain organic food than allowing civilizations to constantly evolve and then fall. Rather I think they do it because the Reaper's culture involves preserving the most advanced and valuable species for eternity as Reapers. Reapers are not one single species, but rather a combination of all species ascended into a higher form of life. The best the galaxy has ever produced, all united under one banner.
The Reapers were not just trying to build any ordinary Reaper. They wanted to build a Human Reaper. Not to lead a massive attack against the Citadel, but rather becuase this is the Reaper's culture. They believe Humans are the species with the greatest potential. If they were just trying to build a generic Reaper, they could have used any species. Arguably it would be a lot easier to target something other than human colonies. But they specifically wanted to turn humans into the Reapers. Think about Harbinger's dialogue. He refers to the process of turning humans into genetic paste to fuel the larva's growth as "ascension". Why use that word in particular? Why not call it "assimilation"? Or "consumption"? "Ascension" implies that they are raising humans to be what they consider to be a higher form of life. They see value in humans.
But what about Sovereign? He didn't seem to like organics at all. Why turn them into Reapers. Well I believe that the Reapers may have considered the current organic "crop" to be a failure, not worthy of being turned into Reapers. This could be for a number of reasons. I think it's because the galaxy had a very diverse category of sentient lifeforms, with no one species appearing to be dominant. The Protheans appeared to be the undisputed rulers of the galaxy at the time of their downfall. This is the Reapers idea of the perfect organic race to harvest. One species that follows their predetermined line of technological advancement, rather than a handful of species that all do so at the same time. So the Reapers were all set to just wipe every race out and start from scratch. What changed this? Well humans killed a Reaper. The game often alludes to the idea that by killing a Reaper, we grabbed their attention. To delay the extinction cycle and kill a powerful Reaper in the process would probably interest them. So Harbinger now thinks that humans are worthy of ascension into the ultimate life form.
If you're wondering why they didn't do this to the Protheans, it's because the Prothean Reaper failed. Instead they turned them into the Collectors, so that they would still serve a purpose.
In short; Reapers wanted to create a Human Reaper for cultural reasons, not military strength.
That's consistent when you take a few pieces of evidence...
Legion asserts that the Reaper known as Sovereign was a composite entity of thousands of minds working as a collective. It's possible that a Reaper is a kind of hive mind constructed of the minds of an entire civilisation. Add in to this that the concept art for the human Reaper showed it being a part of a regular Reaper:
and it's likely that the human reaper is actually the norm for Reapers. Perhaps Sovereign was 'anonymised' so that no one would realise what it was or maybe Sovereign's parent species just doesn't look like anything we'd recognise.
What the hell is Sovereign? Im glad someone finally addressed the question. If all reapers are based on an organism that sovereign squid thing was weird as. I think that they take the most promising race and collect it into a hivemind by which they become a higher form of life or "multiple platforms" as legion puts it. Protheans was no contest but the humans and the other species squabbled and faught for dominance, a councel being the least usefull thing to decide which species is strongest. Would soveriegn not have used the turians? He did select one as his representative and at the end his avatar.
Harbinger actually gives reasons for not using the other species to create the Reaper. You rarely hear them though, since they are just a part of his mad babbling that you're to busy to listen to since he's lobbing energy balls at you. He says that Turians are "to primitive". Not entirely sure what that means, though it could refer to their culture, biology, or something else. What really matters though is that he thinks humans are the best, which is probably because of our rapid technological advancement and Shepard's Reaper slaying powers.
Not saying they would necessarily build a reaper. That would be way too overt. I'm saying no matter what tech they pull out of there, Cerberus shouldn't have first crack at it. Even if they did something, it's not as if they would tell Shepard it (They've lied to him before, and he fell for it.)
When Miranda, someone who has worked with the Illusive Man pretty much all her life, who knows the organization better than just about anyone, says that you shouldn't give the place to Cerberus, I would be inclined to believe her.
Activate the bomb that they built into the second Normandy in case Shepard ever gets out of line and gets in the way of The Illusive Man's big schemes.
But seriously, saying that it doesn't matter if Cerberus does something evil because Shepard could fix it in the end is ridiculous. You'd have to waste time undoing what Cerberus had done, you'd probably have to destroy the Collector base in the process and lots of people would have to die in the process.
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