The final proof...

[Erttheking]

Should I laugh or should I cry?
Maybe rage would be better instead?
Nah that requires too much effort.
So all this is going to get is a Meh.
We have seen this all before over and over.
Just ignore it and move on people.
But if I have to say something-
Both character are sexulised
Yet no one complains about
over sexulized male character
What a sad double standard that is.

Man with giant muscles =/= sexualized. It's more of a power fantasy than anything. And it IS criticized.

 

[The Lunatic]

Man with giant muscles =/= sexualized. It's more of a power fantasy than anything. And it IS criticized.

General rule.

Don't assume to speak for everyone when it comes to what is deemed as "Sexual".

I mean, how do you know the designer hasn't expressly designed this buff character for the sake of appealing to those who enjoy the male form?


I mean, I'm gay, so, do I find large muscular men appealing to look at in video games?

I suppose. So, yeah, I guess those characters are sorta sexualised to me.



Just sayin'.

 

[Erttheking]

Man with giant muscles =/= sexualized. It's more of a power fantasy than anything. And it IS criticized.

General rule.

Don't assume to speak for everyone when it comes to what is deemed as "Sexual".

I mean, how do you know the designer hasn't expressly designed this buff character for the sake of appealing to those who enjoy the male form?


I mean, I'm gay, so, do I find large muscular men appealing to look at in video games?

I suppose. So, yeah, I guess those characters are sorta sexualised to me.



Just sayin'.

I'm just saying, I've asked around both women and gay men and I've yet to find someone who thought that Marcus Feniex was attractive. And even if they did, there's a difference between a character that some people find to be attractive, and designing a character with the intent of said person looking attractive. And after that, there's a difference between attractive and sexuaized.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Wow. That was one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever read. Yours, not his, as none of your arguments are actually worth a damn and betray a stunning lacking of knowledge about feminism and the problems have with this stuff on your part. :\

 

[Weaver]

Let's get real, it's just another Japanese game that decided to put in huge breasts for their lonely otaku fanbase.
This is nothing other Japanese games haven't done a million times.

 

[Cecilo]

So I have a question then, to the women who do not mind sexualized women in games. Do we just tell them to suck it up and to do things the way feminists want it?

These issues are so complicated because not all people want what other people want. By saying "we want things done this way and only this way" You are going to step on another group's toes, and then you are back in the situation you started with. With a privileged, in power group, telling the group NOT in power to suck it up and deal with it.

Not to say that objectification is okay, not at all. But just the concept of the issue. What do we do. How can we avoid the trappings of this that may go on in an endless loop.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

So Mr.Schreier, of the fine rag that is Kotaku-

Stopped reading there.

And it's not just because it's a Kotaku writer, but Jason worded his grievances about the character design with all the integrity of a shit-eating smug FOX news guest expert when he said:

"As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year old boy. Perhaps game development studios should stop hiring teenagers? At least they're cheap, I guess."

So, I've decided to no longer ever longer pay attention to a single thing this guy has to say.

I dunno about you guys, but I just wanna play this game and have fun with it.

 

[The Lunatic]

I'm just saying, I've asked around both women and gay men and I've yet to find someone who thought that Marcus Feniex was attractive. And even if they did, there's a difference between a character that some people find to be attractive, and designing a character with the intent of said person looking attractive. And after that, there's a difference between attractive and sexuaized.

Marcus Fenix is about a sexualised as Anya Stroud.

While, their attractiveness is debatable, they're both clearly not intended to be eye candy.


A character like Jin Kazama from Tekken would be a better example in my mind.

The dude goes around shirtless, for no real reason other than to show off his torso and couldn't be more chiselled without literally being made of stone. He is designed to be both attractive and sexually appealing, the developers are pretty well aware of his female fanbase.


And you can't tell me females aren't attracted to the guy. I don't know one that isn't.

 

[Delerien]

"As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year old boy. Perhaps game development studios should stop hiring teenagers? At least they're cheap, I guess."

He later went on to call the artist immature for his (admittedly childish, yet funny) response. It's hilarious. Stuff like this is why i don't need a TV. All the drama and comedy and i don't even have to pay for it.

 

[Erttheking]

I'm just saying, I've asked around both women and gay men and I've yet to find someone who thought that Marcus Feniex was attractive. And even if they did, there's a difference between a character that some people find to be attractive, and designing a character with the intent of said person looking attractive. And after that, there's a difference between attractive and sexuaized.

Marcus Fenix is about a sexualised as Anya Stroud.

While, their attractiveness is debatable, they're both clearly not intended to be eye candy.


A character like Jin Kazama from Tekken would be a better example in my mind.

The dude goes around shirtless, for no real reason other than to show off his torso and couldn't be more chiselled without literally being made of stone. He is designed to be both attractive and sexually appealing, the developers are pretty well aware of his female fanbase.


And you can't tell me females aren't attracted to the guy. I don't know one that isn't.

Fair enough, he's more of an example of a sexualized male character. But the problem is that people like Jin are the minority, they're the exception to the rule. Sexualized female characters are far more common than sexualized male characters, to the point where there aren't many strong female characters. That's the problem here. There's nothing wrong with a sexualized female character if she's done well (Bayonetta) but it's getting to the point where doing stuff like this is becoming the rule rather than the exception.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I love it when someone thinks that because a woman thinks the opposite then all sexism is over and we can all go home. It's just great... *eyetwitch*

The sorceress looks fucking stupid to me while the male sorcerer looks pretty badass. That bothers me. Of course it doesn't matter how I feel so why do I bother saying anything. As long as men have some tits to look at, that's what matters right.

 

[Candidus]

Ahhh, I love you Atlus. Splendid designs as always!

Odin Sphere was my number one PS2 game. Dragon's Crown is look excellent so far, can't wait.

Edit for On Topic: Yeah, I can't even be bothered to read his drivel.

I like this stuff as is. I'll keep buying it. So will a lot of people. So it'll keep getting made. Have a nice day now.

 

[runic knight]

Is it wrong that I feel the person from Kotaku makes a pretty good argument? It's a good, well rounded argument that isn't in any way overly feminist, and in my opinion points out a flaw in the industry...

Nope, it's not wrong.
I think he has a good point. I'm sad to see so much false equivalence in this thread but fuck it I guess this is the gaming community.
But I'm an evil feminist so what do I know.

Wouldn't say false equivocation when the premise is based in special pleading to begin with. That being, that a women presented sexually is automatically sexist, regardless of character or anything else. It is based on the unspoken notion that women being shown with reference to physical sexual traits is inherently sexist, though does so while at the same time making it a special case as any male being presented sexualized is not. Though I suppose, looking at all the characters, perhaps stylized is more the right word. The archer and mage seem the least odd, with the dwarf fellow showing nothing but rippling muscles and the knight so broad shoulder and top that he looks like he will topple any second. Any complaint about proportions and character appearance then comes off as either looking for something specific in the design, or a complaint that can apply to the style as a whole.


But nice of you to in the same breath claim a logical fallacy of your opponents while then lumping an entire community together with a negative tone. Sort of undermines any degree of intellectual integrity to your remark, even though the shortness of it and lack of clarity did that well enough already.

I love it when someone thinks that because a woman thinks the opposite then all sexism is over and we can all go home. It's just great... *eyetwitch*

The sorceress looks fucking stupid to me while the male sorcerer looks pretty badass. That bothers me. Of course it doesn't matter how I feel so why do I bother saying anything. As long as men have some tits to look at, that's what matters right.

who here said that? Honestly? Nothing like a field of strawmen I guess...

They quoted the woman because she pointed out the inanity of the guy's statements. It isn't that "lol, sexism is gone now" rather "Lol, this guy is full of shit". The quote of her relates to sexism only in so far as it is the topic he was being called out on. I wonder though, do you actually believe people think that? Aside from the snark, is that what you legitimately think other people think? That.... that baffles and saddens me if so.

As for the character appearance, I assume the variety there is so people can pick the one they like. Stylized like they are, I think the archer and mage look alright. The knight looks silly, the Valkyrie a little off, the dwarf and sorceress just weird. I assume some people may like the top heavy look though -shrug-

 

[DoPo]

I mean, how do you know the designer hasn't expressly designed this buff character for the sake of appealing to those who enjoy the male form?


I mean, I'm gay, so, do I find large muscular men appealing to look at in video games?

I suppose. So, yeah, I guess those characters are sorta sexualised to me.



Just sayin'.

Let me get this straight

Spoiler: Sexy

Spoiler: From least to most sexy

Actually, looking at the second picture, I kinda get the barbarians' heads now.

 

[Phasmal]

Wouldn't say false equivocation when the premise is based in special pleading to begin with. That being, that a women presented sexually is automatically sexist, regardless of character or anything else. It is based on the unspoken notion that women being shown with reference to physical sexual traits is inherently sexist, though does so while at the same time making it a special case as any male being presented sexualized is not. Though I suppose, looking at all the characters, perhaps stylized is more the right word. The archer and mage seem the least odd, with the dwarf fellow showing nothing but rippling muscles and the knight so broad shoulder and top that he looks like he will topple any second. Any complaint about proportions and character appearance then comes off as either looking for something specific in the design, or a complaint that can apply to the style as a whole.


But nice of you to in the same breath claim a logical fallacy of your opponents while then lumping an entire community together with a negative tone. Sort of undermines any degree of intellectual integrity to your remark, even though the shortness of it and lack of clarity did that well enough already.

I don't believe women being shown sexually is automatically sexist, but I do believe the prevalence of it vs women shown nonsexually or as power fantasies does indicate that.
I find the entire style a little offputting, I'm not debating their right to exist though.

And I've been in the gaming community too long to even pretend like I didn't expect the responses in this thread.
If you find my remarks so disagreeable, I would suggest ignoring them.

I'm probably gonna get out of this thread anyway, while the flames are still small.

 

[knight steel]

Should I laugh or should I cry?
Maybe rage would be better instead?
Nah that requires too much effort.
So all this is going to get is a Meh.
We have seen this all before over and over.
Just ignore it and move on people.
But if I have to say something-
Both character are sexulised
Yet no one complains about
over sexulized male character
What a sad double standard that is.

Man with giant muscles =/= sexualized. It's more of a power fantasy than anything. And it IS criticized.

I feel that men with big muscles and women with big boobs can be either sexualized or power fantasy depending on the person you ask-some women will say walking male tanks turn them on and that big booby bounces is a power fantasy,while men could say the reverse.

Really they're both-and while both are criticized I think you'll find that the main focus is on the female mistreatment more than the male at least from what I've seen could be wrong *shrug*

 

[Erttheking]

Should I laugh or should I cry?
Maybe rage would be better instead?
Nah that requires too much effort.
So all this is going to get is a Meh.
We have seen this all before over and over.
Just ignore it and move on people.
But if I have to say something-
Both character are sexulised
Yet no one complains about
over sexulized male character
What a sad double standard that is.

Man with giant muscles =/= sexualized. It's more of a power fantasy than anything. And it IS criticized.

I feel that men with big muscles and women with big boobs can be either sexualized or power fantasy depending on the person you ask-some women will say walking male tanks turn them on and that big booby bounces is a power fantasy,while men could say the reverse.

Really they're both-and while both are criticized I think you'll find that the main focus is on the female mistreatment more than the male at least from what I've seen could be wrong *shrug*

I have never met a single female person who said that they thought that a person with big boobs was a power fantasy. Heck, I asked my mother what she thought would be a power fantasy for a woman, and she pointed to Zoey from Firefly.

 

[runic knight]

I don't believe women being shown sexually is automatically sexist, but I do believe the prevalence of it vs women shown nonsexually or as power fantasies does indicate that.

While I can argue your second point, what the article said suggested more of the former, that it doesn't matter the character of the women if she looks sexy, she is still sexist. As for How often they are shown, I would prefer a more numerical comparison of classically attractive male characters v female ones against non-classically attractive alternates, but that seems unlikely. While I would agree even without numbers but solely from personal experience that women probably are portrayed as attractive more often, the idea it is as part of power fantasies seems a stretch. Well, that is to say, the idea it is solely because of power fantasies is a stretch. There is a market that responds to attractive female characters, though trying to appeal to the motive behind that market is assumptions and projection a lot of the time. But that topic is far deeper then the one here.

I find the entire style a little offputting, I'm not debating their right to exist though.

And I've been in the gaming community too long to even pretend like I didn't expect the responses in this thread.
If you find my remarks so disagreeable, I would suggest ignoring them.

I'm probably gonna get out of this thread anyway, while the flames are still small.

I do find the remarks disagreeable when they are presented as a reflection of the community as a whole. With a group as large as us gamers, I am not so silly as to assume we don't have some, but the way it was said suggested almost an ownership to that, and that I called out as a bit wrong.

 

[knight steel]

snip

Man with giant muscles =/= sexualized. It's more of a power fantasy than anything. And it IS criticized.

I feel that men with big muscles and women with big boobs can be either sexualized or power fantasy depending on the person you ask-some women will say walking male tanks turn them on and that big booby bounces is a power fantasy,while men could say the reverse.

Really they're both-and while both are criticized I think you'll find that the main focus is on the female mistreatment more than the male at least from what I've seen could be wrong *shrug*

I have never met a single female person who said that they thought that a person with big boobs was a power fantasy. Heck, I asked my mother what she thought would be a power fantasy for a woman, and she pointed to Zoey from Firefly.

I've met women who say that being looked at and lusted over because of their looks makes them feel powerful and that they purposefully dress so this happens-a game that does the same for it character's should have the same effect----->sexy female character------>lusted after--------->women playing puts herself in characters shoes-------->feels powerful.

 

[DoPo]

The sorceress looks fucking stupid to me while the male sorcerer looks pretty badass. That bothers me. Of course it doesn't matter how I feel so why do I bother saying anything. As long as men have some tits to look at, that's what matters right.

Umm, as a male, I'd also say the sorceress bothers me. I went into it above. I think the only thing I can compliment her for is that she doesn't have high heels. And I like the hat.

Out of curiosity, what do you think of the other characters?