The final proof...

[Scott Rothman]

There is something that needs to be said here that goes beyond the discussion of whether or not individuals see specific content as sexist.

Someone presenting their personal criticism about specific title is not a personal affront to all of those who may enjoy said title. They are presenting criticism because they have a personal issue with the game and they want to discuss it. It goes beyond the discussion of sexism. Fanboys are spewing homophobic and racial slurs over speculations for consoles, one of which that hasn't even been officially announced.

Taking criticism can be hard. But this isn't even criticism directed at you. It's criticism of media that you may or may not enjoy.

Instead of getting personally offended, can we take a step back and just discuss how opinions on the topic? You think the sorceress art is sexist? Great! Explain why! You don't think it's sexist? Also great! Please discuss! I want to know your opinions and thoughts of the medium just as I want you to know mine.

These are conversations that need to happen. Whether or not you happen to think this particular instance is sexist or not, there is definitely an issue of sexism in the gaming industry. Just look at the backlash Anita Sarkeesian got for just WANTING to discuss her feelings on sexism in the industry. People were flipping their shit about it before she EVEN SAID ANYTHING.

Everyone needs to take a need breath, get their egos in check, and calm down so we can have a rational and thoughtful conversation about this.

 

[generals3]

These are conversations that need to happen. Whether or not you happen to think this particular instance is sexist or not, there is definitely an issue of sexism in the gaming industry. Just look at the backlash Anita Sarkeesian got for just WANTING to discuss her feelings on sexism in the industry. People were flipping their shit about it before she EVEN SAID ANYTHING.

Hold it right there. She didn't get backlash because she said anything she got backlash because she made claims with huge implications. Saying videogames using the trope of damsel in distress encourages toxic views of women in RL isn't something to be taken lightly. It's on the same level as those who claim violent videogames make people violent. and guess what, they get flamed a lot as well.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

You may not think you have these power fantasies for said reason but your subconscious mind most likely does think that.

I would also like to ask among which typical demographic vulnerable pretty boys are liked. Sensitive makes sense as it would suggest caring and thus more family oriented and more likely to take care of the offspring but vulnerable? (and in which way "vulnerable")

And ultimately, the traits with the most merit are those which will ensure you will be able to pass on your dna. As a living species survival of the species is what is most important to us, and from a biological point of view that demands reproduction and since we cannot do that on our own (well, ok, nowadays we can to a certain extent) and need a male and a female being "attractive" is extremely important. Maybe not on a societal level but it is on an individual and evolutionary one.

I'm fairly certain, I know very well of many things that I could do that would make me more attractive to the opposite sex, particularly people I know, but I don't because I simply don't find any of those options desirable to me. If my ideal fantasy of myself is based entirely on being desirable to women then I should leap at those options and completely change my appearance, mannerisms and clothing. Yet the idea of those changes is completely undesirable to me

Also I'd suggest straying away from trying to make conclusions on people's personalities based on evolutionary reasons. Evolution is an incredibly complex field and the very nature of it makes it near impossible to work in that direction, evolution has countless different ways that it can work, so even something that would be logical and beneficial to be attracted to for reproduction might very well not be in demand because evolution hasn't taken that path.

As well there's positive reinforcement loops, which work particularly strongly in regards to sexually desired traits. A trait might not even be beneficial for a species to be desired and still become prominent. Great example of this are the tails of peacocks

Anyways, to answer your question about which demographic tends to like it, I am not entirely sure how I'd categorize the demographic. I have a few friends who're into yaoi (largely consisting of men of the type I was describing, you won't see anything beyond slim muscles) which as far as I'm aware is a market considerably more directed to women than gay guys. Not to mention that you find considerably less erotic fanfiction about characters like Kratos than you do of characters like Cloud.

Oh, and when I said vulnerable I meant emotionally vulnerable, not necessarily weak

EDIT: Changed some run on sentences to be a little bit more readable. I hope

 

[Scott Rothman]

These are conversations that need to happen. Whether or not you happen to think this particular instance is sexist or not, there is definitely an issue of sexism in the gaming industry. Just look at the backlash Anita Sarkeesian got for just WANTING to discuss her feelings on sexism in the industry. People were flipping their shit about it before she EVEN SAID ANYTHING.

Hold it right there. She didn't get backlash because she said anything she got backlash because she made claims with huge implications. Saying videogames using the trope of damsel in distress encourages toxic views of women in RL isn't something to be taken lightly. It's on the same level as those who claim violent videogames make people violent. and guess what, they get flamed a lot as well.

I mostly agree with you. I don't think the 'Damsel in Distress' in video games causes sexism; I believe it goes the other way around. But, I do think there is something problematic about the lack of positive female role models in video games.

But see, even here, we are having a calm dialogue about issues you have with my view. And that's fine. Obviously you are more than welcome to disagree with me. But go back and just look at how many theads were created on her just to "prove her wrong." Or the flash game someone made where you get to beat her up (link below). People started screaming 'fraud', 'she doesn't know what she's talking about', 'her research is shit', etc.

I agree with some of what she said, disagreed with some of it. But I'm not going to start yelling about how 'fucking stupid' she is for suggesting that a lack of positive female characters in the video game industry would discourage some women from wanting to be apart of it, or that is isn't detrimental to the industry as a whole.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/118310-Flash-Game-Makes-Players-Beat-Up-Tropes-vs-Women-Creator

 

[Arqus_Zed]

Wow, screenshots of those characters have been floating around for ages and NOW people are taking offense?
Even Penny Arcade made a nice little doodle to join the fun:

But why now?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Ever the downer, aren't you? Being passive aggressive about your perfectly valid points because you think everyone around you is sexist doesn't really do anyone any favors...

Sorry but everyone has there limit, you know? There's only so many times I can go up against seemingly everyone without becoming jaded.

If I thought I could get through to people I would try. But I just feel like I'm repeating myself over and over to a brick wall.

 

[lacktheknack]

Ever the downer, aren't you? Being passive aggressive about your perfectly valid points because you think everyone around you is sexist doesn't really do anyone any favors...

Sorry but everyone has there limit, you know? There's only so many times I can go up against seemingly everyone without becoming jaded.

If I thought I could get through to people I would try. But I just feel like I'm repeating myself over and over to a brick wall.

Maybe you should take a break from the gender threads. A vacation, if you will.

There are people who are against the objectification of women. They'll keep fighting the good fight until you feel ready to take up arms again.

 

[Sabitsuki]

Spoiler: This is they, for reference.

Wow... the sorceress is even worse in that one. Is everybody noticing the placement of the staff there? I can't believe people are trying to turn this into a power fantasy or draw a false equivalence to guys. Or maybe there's some vast reservoir of male characters in games grinding their ass and groin against objects that I've completely missed out on.

Do people even realize what it means to equate this and muscular game characters under power fantasies? Apparently a guy's power fantasy is to be strong and powerful, while a girl's is to be something that a guy would lust after.

Yes, thank you for drawing some attention to this overlooked detail because it is details like that which is where the real problem stems for me.

The mere presence of large breasts is not what I take issue with. It is the positioning and impression the character gives.
She's bent over with her posterior posed in the direction of the viewer. Her staff positioned between her butt, emphasizing the curve of each cheek. All while her chest hangs in such a way that it threatens to spill out of her low, low, very freaking low cut top; and she's stuffing a skeleton's head into her cleavage because, because necromancy? All of this because what exactly? This isn't even getting into her actual gameplay animations. I have not seen her in a single pose that does not involve her thrusting out her chest as much as possible and gratuitous amounts of jiggling.

You can look at the other characters and get some sort of meaningful impression from them.

The knight is a strong and steady iron juggernaut with his grim hunched over pose and raised shield.
The dwarf stands as an unarmored combatant, weapon raised in a proud and grandiose stance showing a broad and fearless strength.
The elf is positioned in such a way to imply she isn't going to be standing there for long. She is comparatively petite, giving the impression of someone who is agile and prefers to fight away from the action.

You get no such meaningful feeling from the Sorceress, her presentation has no correlation to what she is when it comes to adventuring like her colleagues. She is not being presented as a woman of terrifying magical prowess regardless of her shapely body. As it is, her character does not attempt to be anything but sex appeal.

 

[generals3]

I'm fairly certain, I know very well of many things that I could do that would make me more attractive to the opposite sex, particularly people I know, but I don't because I simply don't find any of those options desirable to me. If my ideal fantasy of myself is based entirely on being desirable to women then I should leap at those options and completely change my appearance, mannerisms and clothing. Yet the idea of those changes is completely undesirable to me

But here we're talking about the conscious level. I was referring to the unconscious level. And let me ask you one question wouldn't you like to be considered extremely attractive? I sure know I would, however just like you i ain't going to jump through hoops to become the perfect mate (and also because sometimes i find some of the traits undesirable). But this ultimately doesn't change the fact the male power fantasy is at its most basic level also the typical female sexual fantasy (or an exaggerated form of it), if you look at your typical male power fantasy movies in Hollywood you'll notice that eventually the power fantasy gets the chick (or more than one in the case of james bond).

Now the problem is that the male power fantasy is used to refer only to what the male wants to be. And off course most people like to give meaning to their own desires and with our strong conscious mind we also have different reasons to fantasize than just to be the ultimate playboy. However what you will notice is that what are often considered being "male power fantasies" are at the same time female sexual fantasies. Athletic builds, intelligent, strong, successful, etc.

And that is ultimately my point: what is often called "male power fantasies" could just as well be called female sexual fantasies. And mind that doesn't mean it is necessarily true, mainly because traits are often exaggerated in games or other forms of entertainment. However the traits which are being exaggerated are traits considered attractive. (And the same goes for females being presented as male sexual fantasies. A lot of people don't like huge breasts however those fantasies are too often portrayed with huge breasts) And i ultimately think that using the "male power fantasy" card in this context is actually quite intellectually dishonest. It's just a cheap way to be able to present the situation in a male-centric manner. As if the female fantasies were irrelevant and had no impact.

Also I'd suggest straying away from trying to make conclusions on people's personalities based on evolutionary reasons. Evolution is an incredibly complex field and the very nature of it makes it near impossible to work in that direction, evolution has countless different ways that it can work, so even something that would be logical and beneficial to be attracted to for reproduction might very well not be in demand because evolution hasn't taken that path.

As well there's positive reinforcement loops, which work particularly strongly in regards to sexually desired traits. A trait might not even be beneficial for a species to be desired and still become prominent. Great example of this are the tails of peacocks

But the theories, which fields like behavioral biology spawn, are based on the path evolution has taken. Not the ones which it should have taken. Usually how it works is that they look at how things are and how they changed and than try to see if there are reasonable biological explanations for it.

Anyways, to answer your question about which demographic tends to like it, I am not entirely sure how I'd categorize the demographic. I have a few friends who're into yaoi (largely consisting of men of the type I was describing, you won't see anything beyond slim muscles) which as far as I'm aware is a market considerably more directed to women than gay guys. Not to mention that you find considerably less erotic fanfiction about characters like Kratos than you do of characters like Cloud.

Oh, and when I said vulnerable I meant emotionally vulnerable, not necessarily weak

Well there are studies and experiments which can explain that particular phenomenon. However last time i mentioned them it made someone feel kind of offended due to the implications. So i'll just skip that one.

 

[rob_simple]

are any of you artist?
have any of you thought that maybe, just maybe this isn't sexism and just the art style the artist was going for. You know an over the top super deformed body types in a fantasy world. This particular art style used to be all the rage back in the 80's and 90's in Japan.

Agreed. Also, as a quick aside, I don't remember feeling that all the men were being sexually objectified in Fist of the North Star when their shirts flew off every two seconds. I've never really understood how it's fine for men to be shirtless all the time but if a woman shows a bit of clevage then suddenly we are all horrible pigs for seeing a part of some breasts.

People need to stop trying to apply real world rules to art, otherwise we're going to have to start going to art galleries and covering up all the naked ladies. Not the cocks, though, because women hate seeing naked men, at all times.

Hate it!

 

[Kopikatsu]

are any of you artist?
have any of you thought that maybe, just maybe this isn't sexism and just the art style the artist was going for. You know an over the top super deformed body types in a fantasy world. This particular art style used to be all the rage back in the 80's and 90's in Japan.

Agreed. Also, as a quick aside, I don't remember feeling that all the men were being sexually objectified in Fist of the North Star when their shirts flew off every two seconds. I've never really understood how it's fine for men to be shirtless all the time but if a woman shows a bit of clevage then suddenly we are all horrible pigs for seeing a part of some breasts.

People need to stop trying to apply real world rules to art, otherwise we're going to have to start going to art galleries and covering up all the naked ladies. Not the cocks, though, because women hate seeing naked men, at all times.

Hate it!

Interesting the New York Supreme Court has said that anywhere a man is permitted to go topless, a woman is also permitted to go topless.

Of course, you never see women actually going topless, so there's that.

 

[wickedmonkey]

Lets be honest - the Sun shines, birds sing and Japanese developers sell T'n'A to hormone-riddled teenagers because hormone-riddled teenagers, generally speaking, like T'n'A.

They've been doing it for year after year and the teens of each generation keep eating it up, Western developers do it too.

Supplying young adult males with jiggling norks has been a business staple for decades, in the games industry and elsewhere.

It's a license to print money.

And when you're a teenager you don't think too hard about the "why?" etc. because you're hypnotised by the boobies, I hold my hand up - DOA 2 on the PS2 with the age setting turned up to 99 was great fun.
And no, I did not find it objectifies women or degrading them - I didn't care about that, I was just admiring a nice pair of funbags while I beat that asshole AI Ryu Hyabusa into a wall.

That said, now that I am no longer a teenager, I do prefer more sensible female (and male) characters in my videogames.
Dragon Age 2's Lady Hawke is a good example of that. (romps with Isabella not withstanding!)

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

But here we're talking about the conscious level. I was referring to the unconscious level. And let me ask you one question wouldn't you like to be considered extremely attractive? I sure know I would, however i'm just like you not going to jump through hoops to become the perfect mate (and also because sometimes i find some of the traits undesirable). But this ultimately doesn't change the fact the male power fantasy is at its most basic level also the typical female sexual fantasy (or an exaggerated form of it), if you look at your typical male power fantasy movies in Hollywood you'll notice that eventually the power fantasy gets the chick (or more than one in the case of james bond).

Now the problem is that the male power fantasy is used to refer only to what the male wants to be. And off course most people like to give meaning to their own desires and with our strong conscious mind we also have different reasons to fantasize than just to be the ultimate playboy. However what you will notice is that what are often considered being "male power fantasies" are at the same time female sexual fantasies. Athletic builds, intelligent, strong, successful, etc.

I think you're missing my point. It's not only that I wouldn't want to put the effort into being like that, I outright wouldn't want to be that. I wouldn't even fantasize about having a lot of the qualities that some of my female friends would be attracted to. Heck, if you're trying to hackney evolution into this how about this rationalization? Men desire to be strong and intelligent because they give them an improved chance of surviving and passing along their genes. This would also apply to the female gender, there's just a large societal pressure for girls to be lacking in muscles (yet thin) and stupid.

Actually you kind of hit the nail on the head there of how these things manifest. People want to be considered extremely attractive just without the effort. Pretty much they want to be considered attractive as they are. You can see this come up in media all the time, average looking (or occasionally below average looking) guy finds a very attractive looking girl who eventually falls for him. You just never see the flip side unless she's "plain" in the sense that she's an attractive actress whose wearing glasses and frumpy clothing.

Sure there is probably also desires to be attractive, but I don't see any rationalization for every aspect of a power fantasy to be bundled into being attractive. As I said above, more than anything there's a desire to have the opposite sex attracted to you rather than to be that. To further support this, look at Kratos. He's so commonly used in these power fantasy debates, but he's really not attractive to any woman that I've met.

Spoiler: Which is bollocks because who WOULDN'T be attracted to this?

Yet he still gets the girls, because that's what's a part of the power fantasy

But the theories, which fields like behavioral biology spawn, are based on the path evolution has taken. Not the ones which it should have taken. Usually how it works is that they look at how things are and how they changed and than try to see if there are reasonable biological explanations for it.

I'm talking about the difference between saying "People still have these traits because they're useful for promoting their genes" and "People will have these traits because they're useful for promoting their genes". One explains already existing traits, and the other tries to try to prove they exist. Regardless, neither add anything to this discussion.

Well there are studies and experiments which can explain that particular phenomenon. However last time i mentioned them it made someone feel kind of offended due to the implications. So i'll just skip that one.

Studies can be bad or good, this much is obvious when you look at how many give conflicting results. The worst I'll do if I see a study is disagree with it

 

[generals3]

epic snippage

A couple of things i'd like to add:
First: something i edited in and you probably missed because you were typing your answer before i edited it:
"And that is ultimately my point: what is often called "male power fantasies" could just as well be called female sexual fantasies. And mind that doesn't mean it is necessarily true, mainly because traits are often exaggerated in games or other forms of entertainment. However the traits which are being exaggerated are traits considered attractive. (And the same goes for females being presented as male sexual fantasies. A lot of people don't like huge breasts however those fantasies are too often portrayed with huge breasts)"


Second: Not every power fantasy is the power fantasy. Sometimes they just exaggerate one trait and say "there you have it, now fantasize". If anything those are just secondary fantasies. It is not about fantasizing being the person but fantasizing about one of his traits (or what he achieves)(unless we're talking about being the person in the setting in which he's put, in which case obviously things get messy considering you can't actually apply Real Life rules than). And that trait is in most situations a trait liked by women.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Spoiler: This is they, for reference.

Wow... the sorceress is even worse in that one. Is everybody noticing the placement of the staff there? I can't believe people are trying to turn this into a power fantasy or draw a false equivalence to guys. Or maybe there's some vast reservoir of male characters in games grinding their ass and groin against objects that I've completely missed out on.

Do people even realize what it means to equate this and muscular game characters under power fantasies? Apparently a guy's power fantasy is to be strong and powerful, while a girl's is to be something that a guy would lust after.

Yes, thank you for drawing some attention to this overlooked detail because it is details like that which is where the real problem stems for me.

The mere presence of large breasts is not what I take issue with. It is the positioning and impression the character gives.
She's bent over with her posterior posed in the direction of the viewer. Her staff positioned between her butt, emphasizing the curve of each cheek. All while her chest hangs in such a way that it threatens to spill out of her low, low, very freaking low cut top; and she's stuffing a skeleton's head into her cleavage because, because necromancy? All of this because what exactly? This isn't even getting into her actual gameplay animations. I have not seen her in a single pose that does not involve her thrusting out her chest as much as possible and gratuitous amounts of jiggling.

You can look at the other characters and get some sort of meaningful impression from them.

The knight is a strong and steady iron juggernaut with his grim hunched over pose and raised shield.
The dwarf stands as an unarmored combatant, weapon raised in a proud and grandiose stance showing a broad and fearless strength.
The elf is positioned in such a way to imply she isn't going to be standing there for long. She is comparatively petite, giving the impression of someone who is agile and prefers to fight away from the action.

You get no such meaningful feeling from the Sorceress, her presentation has no correlation to what she is when it comes to adventuring like her colleagues. She is not being presented as a woman of terrifying magical prowess regardless of her shapely body. As it is, her character does not attempt to be anything but sex appeal.

Lest we not forget the skull nestled tenderly inside her bosom. I'm not particularly fond of the appearances of any of the characters, but I agree, their appearances were at least designed with some purpose in mind. Every aspect of the sorceresses' appearance is clearly designed to appeal to guy's rampant sexual desires (Said in jest, myself and most guys I know are not beset with uncontrollable lust)

EDIT: I apparently need to read these closer, you indeed did not forget the skull nestled within her bosom

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

All of the Dragon's Crown characters are...pretty out there, I gotta say.

Spoiler: This is they, for reference.

I do like how the Barbarian classes pretty much have the same amount of cloth.

Yeah I mean, the female barbarian is technically scantily clad but it's 1-1 with her male counterpart. The other girl is pretty well clothed. It's pretty much just the sorceress that's being unnecessarily sexualized. 1 of the 3? That's not bad.

Also, why can't a character be sexual or even outright eye candy without the game being "sexist?"

Sometimes girls LIKE to dress slutty. Sometimes girls just outright ARE slutty.

I only bring this up because the sorceress is nothing but eye candy. To try to argue she isn't is disingenuous. But she's one character. If all the female characters were huge sluts like dead or alive there's a little bit more room for debate there, but calling this game sexist implies that a game is not even allowed to have a sexualized female character without being labelled as sexist. Making every female character in a game an excuse to show off jiggle physics is immature, but I think pretending that women are NEVER sexualized ever or never sexualize themselves is just as immature in a different way.

And that's not to say that there's no room for immature tit-fests either. I think people are quick to correlate sexualization with Misogyny when really these things don't hurt anybody. I'll understand if women don't see the appeal in it, but if the developers want to pander to a male demographic that's their prerogative.

 

[Easton Dark]

my gf is all the rage for the Sorceress and mostly is because of her design, its daring and unique

You just said this style was all the rage back in the 80's. Whatever, it's sexist or it's not sexist, up to you, but daring and unique it is not. It's thin girl, large breasts, large ass. Oooo, creativity.

I think it's terrible.

 

[RaikuFA]

Oh dear another sexism debate...

Listen, yes there's sexism in the industry, but asshats like the guy from kotaku(seriously, why the fuck do people go on this shit site?) are the problem. So are the women who think Gloria Allred is a Messiah and if you have a Y chromosome you're automatically a sexist. And also the people who try to deny the fact that sexism exists. These sides are wrong. What we need is some new people in charge, ones that won't say "This game won't sell because it has a female lead.". We also need to throw out people who go "Oh my gosh, that woman has boobs, anyone who plays this game is sexist."

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

A couple of things i'd like to add:
First: something i edited in and you probably missed because you were typing your answer before i edited it:
"And that is ultimately my point: what is often called "male power fantasies" could just as well be called female sexual fantasies. And mind that doesn't mean it is necessarily true, mainly because traits are often exaggerated in games or other forms of entertainment. However the traits which are being exaggerated are traits considered attractive. (And the same goes for females being presented as male sexual fantasies. A lot of people don't like huge breasts however those fantasies are too often portrayed with huge breasts)"


Second: Not every power fantasy is the power fantasy. Sometimes they just exaggerate one trait and say "there you have it, now fantasize". If anything those are just secondary fantasies. It is not about fantasizing being the person but fantasizing about one of his traits (or what he achieves)(unless we're talking about being the person in the setting in which he's put, in which case obviously things get messy considering you can't actually apply Real Life rules than). And that trait is in most situations a trait liked by women.

In response to your first: The big difference here is that most of the time they're predominantly a male fantasy, and inadvertently a female sexual fantasy. Actually I won't even limit it that much, they're primarily intended to portray someone you'd want to be, not just someone you'd want to have sex with. Unfortunately I'm having trouble thinking of a perfect example for this for a female main character, but Alyx Vance is a good example for this for side character. She's strong and capable, and while some people find her attractive, you can tell clearly from her design and character that nothing's being thrown in just be be sexualized. Or take Tali, I find her accent far more attractive than I have any right to, but the accent isn't intended to be lusty. Those are characters that are just inadvertently attractive, and aren't designed to appeal to guys.

Now the opposite of that is very common in female characters, sexual characteristics take up the majority of the focus of the character. For example in Mass Effect with the number of ass shots that Miranda gets, the game is trying to shove the sexualization in your face. You probably wouldn't see that many close ups of guy's firm butts in the game. The sorceress who started this thread fits firmly into this category.

My point is, even if power fantasies can be attractive, when done properly the fantasy comes first and the attraction comes second. For most characters there should be some overlap, a quality being desired for its own sake, not just because it attracts all the guys. Of course I really don't think that every character needs to be a power fantasy, or really any, but the sheer number of female characters that get sexuality as their primary aspect is considerably more prominent than how many male characters. Actually, I'd be happy if you could show me a single male character who does it.

Second: Oh, completely. I agree with just about everything in that. I'd even go as far to say that the reason why being strong and intelligent is seen as attractive to a lot of women is similar to the reason why guys want it. And I'm going to tie my previous point into this, there are things besides large breasts and asses that guys find attractive in women. Things to the same effect of intelligence, craftiness and strength (talking a broad definition of strength here). And I'm going to tie in my previous point to this, these are qualities that overlap and can be appreciated by in both a sense of attraction and idealization.

The thing is, when you get situations like the ass shots and massive boobs it is clear that those are put in there solely for people who're attracted to women. Which... can be fine, so long as there's even close to the same amount of attention given to the opposite gender

 

[Oltsu]

SJWs truly are the blight of the internet.

If we want gaming to be seen as a serious artform/past time/etc. what we need to do is stop it with this stupid attitude about what's right and what's wrong. Everyone needs to see that there's enough space out there for all kinds of games.

Should there be games with sexualized characters? Yes of course, if there are devs who want to make those games and gamers who want to play them.

Should there be games that aren't sexualized? Yes of course, read above.

No one here should give a flying fuck if some random game out there has character models that they don't like, no one should go all tumblr-SJW on developers who want to make games that are more porn than games. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having different sorts of material for different gamers to consume. This is the standard in pretty much every single entertainment industry. Not. Everyone. Needs. To. Like. Everything.

And dear feminists (yes I know I'm generalizing), if you want a better reception from pretty much everyone you should try changing the tune from "X is sexist, wrong, disgusting and stupid" to "I would like to see X, I think we could improve this by doing X, I'm going to back game X because I like it but refrain from bashing Y because liking Y is subjective".