The Fourth Dimension

[LordOmnit]

So for all you science-y types out there I thought I would like to pose this little theory: mass as the fourth dimension.
I won't go into time being a possibility as a fourth dimension because it appears that some people much smarter than me have come up with the same idea as me that time isn't the fourth dimensional vector (although some of them and you may take issue with my stance that time as it is defined is complete bullshit).
Anyways, back to mass. I theorize mass as the fourth dimensional vector because it is very similar to the other three in that:
1. It can be both positive and negative (if measured relatively)
2. It can theoretically be represented by a function of the other three just as the other three dimensions can (imagine math problem setting where you are given a function and set of three coordinates, the last one is a given based on the other three i.e.- ax + by + cz = dm)
3. Similar to point 1, any point is relative to the other points on the mass vector by itself (although objects can have different densities a given point in space will be measured as more massive if there is more matter around it and given point will be further away if there are more points between you and it in a distance vector)
4. Assuming that space can be curved at large distances, at high masses the other dimensional vectors are significantly effected (a la black holes and to a weaker extent massive stars).

Now, I've already given some points as to why mass can be a dimensional vector, but because it isn't widely accepted enough to come up as such in simple internet searches. So I had to think of at least one reason why this might not be the case:
> It is associated with the force of gravitation, whereas the other dimensional vectors seem to have no association with fundamental interactions (gravitation, weak interaction, electromagnetism, and strong interaction).

So now I put it to the few remaining Escapist forum-goers who sat through my big long post; what do you think of mass as the fourth dimension?

 

[PurpleRain]

I thought the forth dimension was time?

EDIT

Saw what you wrote in more detail.

I still find a lot of what you say in this thread as great leaps seeing as most of human knowledge about these subjects are mostly theories.

 

[Gerazzi]

Yes, it is the fourth dimension because time is the fourth dimension and time is the observation of matter and light to put it in C student terms.
Light = Time
Matter is observed through light.
thus Matter = Time
and matter is the same as the fourth dimension.

Of course, this is all supposing string theory exists and then you've opened another can of worms.

 

[PurpleRain]

Light = Time

How does light = time? Doesn't light travel through time like all things? I wasn't aware time had any form to it.

 

[Gerazzi]

Light = Time

How does light = time? Doesn't light travel through time like all things? I wasn't aware time had any form to it.

fastest thing in the universe, you can't travel faster than time. That's where I drew this conclusion.

 

[Labyrinth]

To the best of my knowledge there's already a fourth dimension called Time, but let's run with this.

The problem with proposing this is that there's a search on to prove that gravity is caused by these pretty little subatomics called gravitons. It's to do with string theory. Gravitons are proposed to not only give mass, but to be loosely associated with the strings that make up everything and the membranes too. As such, they are able to drift between different realities. Matter and anti-matter come into it somewhere I can't quite remember.

Apart from the Higgs Boson, this is what the Hadron Collider could have found.

 

[Lord Beautiful]

I'm not quite certain of what the fourth dimension is. I'm thinking it's gravity, but I'm not particularly certain. Your theory is very interesting, though. I've never thought of mass itself as the fourth dimension.

 

[Just Joe]

I found this vaguely related story on a blog (Slacktivist, if you must know) the other day:


So one day our hero, the square, comes across the kingdom of Lineland, which is just what it sounds like -- a straight line where all the people are just dots, little points on an East-West axis. To them the square looks like another dot, because that's all they can see of where he intersects their world.

The square tries to explain to them that he's more than that, that he's a two-dimensional shape consisting of lines that go North and South as well as East and West, but this just blows their little Linelander minds.

"North and South?" the people of Lineland said to our hero. "That's nonsense. There's no such thing as North and South, only East and West."

Try as he might, he couldn't get them to understand.

A few days later, the square meets another Flatlander, a circle who can do an amazing trick -- growing bigger and shrinking smaller. The circle explains to our hero that he isn't actually changing size, but that he's really a sphere -- a three-dimensional globe who only appears to change size to the square because he is rising Up and Down above and below Flatland itself.

"Up and Down?" says our hero. "That's nonsense. There's no such thing as Up and Down, only North, South, East and West."

His little Flatlander brain can't conceive of a sphere or comprehend what this sphere is trying to tell him. And so the sphere does something extraordinary -- it lifts our hero Up, taking him above and out of Flatland to behold the incomprehensible. The square is caught up to the third heaven, into the unknown and unknowable realm of Up and Down from which he can see all of Flatland laid out below. There he can see inside the houses, see through and into the Flatlanders themselves. This epiphany overwhelms him.

"I understand," he cries. "Three dimensions! Now let's keep going -- further up and further in! Let's go beyond your world too, to see the fourth and fifth and sixth dimensions!"

"Four dimensions?" the sphere says. "That's nonsense. There's no such thing, only Up, Down, North, South, East and West."

And he dumps the poor square back in Flatland, convinced the fellow has gone mad.


Doesn't answer your question, but who cares?

 

[PurpleRain]

Light = Time

How does light = time? Doesn't light travel through time like all things? I wasn't aware time had any form to it.

fastest thing in the universe, you can't travel faster than time. That's where I drew this conclusion.

I still can't thought to this. In my head, time doesn't travel at all and ratains no speed. Time is just other (and all) things moving forward.

Light is the fastest thing we found, but why can't certain things move faster? But that would be teleportation and other scifi jumbo.

 

[LordOmnit]

Time isn't because time is fundamentally different from the other dimensional vectors. Not entirely sure why, because I can't find any real hard evidence on the internet outside of a few quotes on Wikipedia, but the theory was popularized by H.G. Wells.

Also Just Joe, that is an awesome story you found, which does put a little insight into things.

 

[Gerazzi]

(a big hilarious paragraph)

There you go.
Mankind will never truly understand unless they've observed it.

 

[Gerazzi]

Light = Time

How does light = time? Doesn't light travel through time like all things? I wasn't aware time had any form to it.

fastest thing in the universe, you can't travel faster than time. That's where I drew this conclusion.

I still can't thought to this. In my head, time doesn't travel at all and ratains no speed. Time is just other (and all) things moving forward.

Light is the fastest thing we found, but why can't certain things move faster? But that would be teleportation and other scifi jumbo.

Teleportation would be an alteration of space, not time.
Black holes for example alter the space time continuum.
err...

*maintains dignity by not going further into science discussion*

 

[PurpleRain]

Teleportation would be an alteration of space, not time.
Black holes for example alter the space time continuum.
err...

*maintains dignity by not going further into science discussion*

I'm not saying time. I was to understand, if something was to move faster then light, they would appear to disappear right? Teleportation in baby speech? I have little knowledge in this field, but I still can't see the conectios between time and light. Time to me is different in everyway.

EDIT

Also, blackholes are just massive points of gravity. What has that got to do with time?

 

[LordOmnit]

I still can't thought to this. In my head, time doesn't travel at all and ratains no speed. Time is just other (and all) things moving forward.

Light is the fastest thing we found, but why can't certain things move faster? But that would be teleportation and other scifi jumbo.

I'm not sure what to say about the light=time thing seeing as light is energy and matter is theoretically hyper-condensed energy (a la E=mc[sup]2[/sup]). If I had to say, things can't move faster than light except relatively because of the increase in energy cost to continue to go faster; if you imagine how a rocket engine works- expelling matter out the back at high speeds- as you approach the speed of light you would have to continually expel matter out in the opposite direction of what you want to go at infintesimally higher speeds than what you are going. So to reach the speed of light you would have to move matter in the opposite direction of your movement at faster than the speed of light, so already we have a problem in that to only get to the speed of light something has to be moved faster than the speed of light (if only relatively. Although this explanation is actually a little flawed because the propellant never has to have any speed, if it is left behind at a given point then the energy it once had is imparted to the movement of the object trying to be moved).

 

[Gerazzi]

I still can't thought to this. In my head, time doesn't travel at all and ratains no speed. Time is just other (and all) things moving forward.

Light is the fastest thing we found, but why can't certain things move faster? But that would be teleportation and other scifi jumbo.

I'm not sure what to say about the light=time thing seeing as light is energy and matter is theoretically hyper-condensed energy (a la E=mc[sup]2[/sup]). If I had to say, things can't move faster than light except relatively because of the increase in energy cost to continue to go faster; if you imagine how a rocket engine works- expelling matter out the back at high speeds- as you approach the speed of light you would have to continually expel matter out in the opposite direction of what you want to go at infintesimally higher speeds than what you are going. So to reach the speed of light you would have to move matter in the opposite direction of your movement at faster than the speed of light, so already we have a problem in that to only get to the speed of light something has to be moved faster than the speed of light (if only relatively. Although this explanation is actually a little flawed because the propellant never has to have any speed, if it is left behind at a given point then the energy it once had is imparted to the movement of the object trying to be moved).

that was a good explanation right there, what I was going to say. You can't move faster than the speed of light. Let me put it this way, light is the fastest form of energy, to move something, you need energy in the form of propulsion.
No propulsion can possibly be faster than the speed of light, because any energy created would be a maximum of the speed of light.

And this is not even viable transportation because it's almost destined to vaporize/destroy the matter within any spacecraft built.

 

[LordOmnit]

I'm not saying time. I was to understand, if something was to move faster then light, they would appear to disappear right? Teleportation in baby speech? I have little knowledge in this field, but I still can't see the conectios between time and light. Time to me is different in everyway.

Actually, this brings up two funny theories that I have in that something travelling faster than the speed of light would produce something similar to a sonic boom of light if any light is either being generated by the object moving at the speed of light or by light that strikes it.
The other being that if a massive (matter-based) object were to travel at the speed of light or faster then it's parts and pieces wouldn't all necessarily be moving at the same speed so it would tear itself apart because of the massive energy differences between individual parts of the object itself (as a human example the cells in the back where the propulsion first effected the person would cause those cells to be pushed into the next set and the next and so on. Imagine pulling infinite G's inside of your body rather than from outside forces).
||Around here my brain broke, so I can't think of what else I was thinking of putting.||

 

[kobold king]

so herd u liek mudkips

 

[Dr. Gorgenflex]

4th dimension is time AND space.

 

[oliveira8]

Bah...the only cool dimension is the Twilight Zone anyway...which aparently is everything, distorted.

 

[Knight Templar]

Light = Time

How does light = time? Doesn't light travel through time like all things? I wasn't aware time had any form to it.

fastest thing in the universe, you can't travel faster than time. That's where I drew this conclusion.

But it isn't.
There are particles that move faster than light, you see them arrive before they leave. The reason being that it moves faster than light, so you see two, but only one is there.

EDIT

Also, blackholes are just massive points of gravity. What has that got to do with time?

Because they alter the space and time around them, gravity is an effect of distorted space-time.