The Game Stash: Virtual Virtues

tkioz

Fussy Fiddler
May 7, 2009
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My problem with morality systems is that in almost all games evil is freaking stupid. Give candy to orphans or burn down the orphanage? That isn't a good vs. evil choice that's a common decency vs. psychopathy choice.

Even people we consider the most evil SoBs in history didn't think themselves as evil... If they want to make a compelling game about the "dark side" maybe they should explore that fact and understand that "evil" isn't just being a dick to everyone you meet.
 

Schwerganoik

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Jul 1, 2010
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Forefront, my eye. Open-ended games already exists (Fallout 2 and Daggerfall, for examples). The problem is that morality systems which have an actual appeal are deemed too "niche" for the publishers to fund the developers to put large amounts of time and effort into perfecting the system (what with 3D engines already costing $10,000,000 in technology and manpower and time).
 

microwaviblerabbit

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Apr 20, 2009
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The issue of rewards and morality systems is a mess. I think that 'karma' systems fail entirely on their premise; karma only works if the end payoff is important and worthwhile. Otherwise it becomes a meaningless annoyance. This is especially true when it is treated as another resource. The best example that comes to mind is Fallout 3. Why does giving money to a crazy cult give me good karma? These people are clearly not helping anyone, and now we seem to be back in the middle ages with indulgences. Then the game contradicts itself when it gives you karma for helping a girl seduce a priest into marriage. So is the church good or not?

However, the game got close to a decent scenario with Tenpenny Towers, but why does killing genocidal humans/ghouls give me bad karma? These people are clearly evil, all they lack is a twirly mustache. Especially after the 'cleanup' if you choose the good option, the morality system just collapses in contradictions.

I think a decent step would be important, game changing rewards/punishments. Using Fallout 3 as an example, if being 'Evil' meant the Brotherhood refused to train you in Power Armor, or if 'Evil' you could join Talon Company instead, gaining access to unique weapons and shop discounts due to fear. Then the choices would gain some weight, since they majorly change game-play.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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Nov 9, 2008
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I always play the neutral evil character in RPG's. I love looting dead bodies and holding old men until they give me 100gp (that actually happened in NWN).
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Sep 1, 2007
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Fou morality systems suck because they are under implemented not to say using a 10 year old dailog tree that talks is not bad it is good enough for publishers to toss out but meh they can do better *looking at you bioware*

First off you need 4 to 6 paths Pure good,complicated good,bad ass and pure evil, or good/lawful, bad ass but good natured/bad ass but selfish and evil selfish/evil as in demonic.


Then you need a system to deal with those consequences (nefor Is tart in stealing should be dealt with as follows skilled stealing gets you .001 bad points,being seen around the area you are stealing from 1 and being seen is 5) you need individual, town level,regional level and world level gauges to figure out who and what you are, you treat people good or bad in a town the town reflects that in your score which then tilts the regional score, when you enter into a new region you are looked at with maybe 40% of the gauge from the last region a new person in town dose not mean much until you start ding stuff and after awhile changing your looks and hiding your appearance will need to come into play.

But there again depth in a RPG....in this era? HA!
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Sep 1, 2007
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microwaviblerabbit said:
FO3 was designed for the 8-10 hour main quest anythign apart from it is unbalanced and unpolished well..vats is fckered but thats because its poorly implamtned...
 

The Random One

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May 29, 2008
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That's a very interesting article, and one that has been repeated at infinitum and never seems to get into developers' heads.

Designers of these games have often lamented that so few people take the "bad" path, and much creative energy has been spent trying to find a perspective that encourages players to give in to the Dark Side or, more interestingly, to present choices that aren't as obviously good or evil.
Wait, what? Really? Are you sure of this? Really, really sure? Because every time I see a thread about which path people took on a game, about 90% of the people will say they chose the evil path. If they played once, they played evil. If they own the game, they played evil four times, did a good run to see what it was like, then did a genocidal run to offset it. As a matter of fact, I've come to see morality thingies on games as just a way for gamers to feel even better about being evil. Not only do you get to kick a puppy, a message even pops up saying 'Kicked a puppy! +50 Evil Points! Thrice Damned Bastard evil level reached!'

I remember the Prototype devs saying they didn't put a morality system in their game because they saw people playing and realized everyone just plays as the most evil bastard. I usually play as a good guy but even I felt that was a fresh perspective.

Susan Arendt, for instance, chose not to steal the cash from the couples' safe because she established her own personal context for the action.
Reminds me of the guy in one of the Escapist articles whose personal yardstick for evil was that he would not kill a goat in one of the King's Quest games. Or... can't remember who, it might have been one of the Escapist columnists, who said he loved foxes and so wouldn't hurt a fox in Red Dead Redemption... then hunted a fox to complete a sidequest and felt horrible about it.

The problem is that there will always be THAT GUY who would shout at Arendt saying 'WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU, ARE YOU DAFT? THE ITEMS ARE THERE, THERE IS NO NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCE FOR PICKING THEM UP WHATSOEVER, YOU ARE STUPID FOR NOT TAKING THE FREE ITEMS YOU MORONIC IDIOT!' (Poor Susie!) The point is that some people will always focus on gaming the system, and will consider a stupid choice to not take the most advantadge possible even if it means your character is acting like a bastard. Of course, a game is about bending rules for one as much as it's about telling a story for others, although THAT GUY will usually say that his way of playing is superior and use his superior game stats as proof.

And, of course, while there's some obvious conflict in the way things happen in ME, I remember an atheist complaining about the morality system in Fallout 3, in which you lose karma for stealing stuff even if you aren't caught. He said it makes it look like there is some sort of force always keeping track of the player. Well, there is, but it should be a gaming abstraction, yes?

(And I've found a lot of hate for the bad end for the Tenpenny Tower quest, even though I personally think it's one of the only quests in the game to really mean something. Congratulations, you worked hard for the best end and now everyone is happy! Except the people you just helped are bigots and they kill each other. You know what they say about the road to hell and its pavement.)
 
Apr 28, 2008
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EmeraldGreen said:
Steve Butts said:
no one wants to play Star Wars: Mediators of the Old Republic or Peaceout: New Vegas
Speak for yourself. When I play games, I often wish that I could stop murdering people and just go around exploring and chatting to them.
Which makes me excited for New Vegas.

Obsidian stated you can go through the game without killing anyone. Its tricky to do, but possible. Which makes me very happy.
 

RatRace123

Elite Member
Dec 1, 2009
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Loonerinoes said:
To be honest...maybe we should have something like that in these modern RPGs these days? A random encounter of either guards or residents of said abodes that jump you at any given time and go berserk at what you're doing? It would help I guess heheh. Funnily enough I remember in Dragon Age (in sharp contrast) most characters actually *will* turn hostile if you open chests nearby them and will fight you the moment you start to loot their stuff. So...it could be another side-effect of Bioware wanting to differentiate Dragon Age as the slightly more traditional styled RPG while taking Mass Effect into the more loose shooter/RPG hybrid route they've taken.
Where does this happen, I steal stuff constantly, yet I never get this to happen. I actually want punishment for being such a theiving bastard. Though in terms of taking stuff from chests, I consider it an acceptable break from reality.

PS. Don't worry about being too big of a Bioware fan... you're not alone.
 

Infinatex

BLAM!Headshot?!
May 19, 2009
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Irridium said:
EmeraldGreen said:
Steve Butts said:
no one wants to play Star Wars: Mediators of the Old Republic or Peaceout: New Vegas
Speak for yourself. When I play games, I often wish that I could stop murdering people and just go around exploring and chatting to them.
Which makes me excited for New Vegas.

Obsidian stated you can go through the game without killing anyone. Its tricky to do, but possible. Which makes me very happy.
And apparently you can kill everyone too! Keeps everyone happy.
 

kementari

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Mar 18, 2008
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Steve Butts said:
This is, of course, assuming that the role you've adopted in these games is more in line with good than evil. I think, for most of us at least, that's a safe bet. Designers of these games have often lamented that so few people take the "bad" path, and much creative energy has been spent trying to find a perspective that encourages players to give in to the Dark Side or, more interestingly, to present choices that aren't as obviously good or evil.
Really? If you had asked me, I would have guessed it was the exact opposite - it seems like EVERYONE does the bad-guy route. Vocal minority, I guess.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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XinfiniteX said:
Irridium said:
EmeraldGreen said:
Steve Butts said:
no one wants to play Star Wars: Mediators of the Old Republic or Peaceout: New Vegas
Speak for yourself. When I play games, I often wish that I could stop murdering people and just go around exploring and chatting to them.
Which makes me excited for New Vegas.

Obsidian stated you can go through the game without killing anyone. Its tricky to do, but possible. Which makes me very happy.
And apparently you can kill everyone too! Keeps everyone happy.
So long as they don't put in another Little Lamplight-like town, I'll be happy.

Seriously Bethesda, there is no reason Little Lamplight should exist, unless the goal was to grief the players, and in that respect, you succeeded.

Dicks.
 

maxben

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Jun 9, 2010
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I'm shocked about the statistic that most people play good characters.

I've always had the most fun with the evil path, and its my general choice if its not completely horrifying. Though I do also feel guilt for doing it, there is a lot of fun to be head in pushing yourself to make choices like that which would be against your nature in real life.

Fallout 3 hit me a total of 6 times: Nuking Megaton, killing the Lincoln worshiping slaves, killing the disadvantaged ghouls, poisoning the water, destroying the citadel, and (the absolute worst thing in any game ever, I had trouble sleeping) selling the naive child to the slavers by convincing her we were going on an adventure.
 

Steve Butts

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Jun 1, 2010
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JackRyan64 said:
This article is automatically win due to one Kinks reference.
It's my favorite part of the whole thing.

As for people playing good characters, I've heard from Peter Molyneux and the BioWare doctors that the anecdotal evidence is that most people tend to go for the good side in their games. It's certainly the case for most gamers I know.
 

RhombusHatesYou

Surreal Estate Agent
Mar 21, 2010
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Between There and There.
Country
The Wide, Brown One.
The problem I have with most morality systems is that while the 'good' options tend to stick with heroic standards the 'evil' options are mostly juvenile dickishness that you'd expect from henchmen rather than a true villain.
 

Roboto

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Nov 18, 2009
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Mass Effect 1 made it easier to loot. Those barren rocks you landed on with a tiny replicate base in the middle of nowhere: once you slaughter everyone and everything in it, it is obvious nobody will ever come here again. Mass Effect 2 made that harder since you'd read datapads of the actions happening in real time as you progressed.

Also, the inventory system made gaining cash laughably easy. If you can sell every item you collect from the corpses, you make big bucks, and that was the key to making riches in Mass Effect 1. At a certain point, I didn't have to loot jack since I was swimmingly affluent.

Mass Effect 2 makes you have to grind out credits in any way possible, in such a way that it would easily take 20 people's "life savings," as you put it in your article, to buy armor upgrade #1 or whatnot. Being able to sell those resources would have been amazing in the same way, since you can always make money doing that kind of thing in such a large galaxy full of rocks.

Most importantly, if they had let me pull in my 1 million + credits from mass effect 1 saves, I would have been able to buy every item in the whole game without collecting a single credit...
 

Jaker the Baker

Guild Warrior
Nov 9, 2009
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Holy crap, Steve, judging from the size of people's posts, you seem to be attracting all of the Escapist's intellectuals. Bravo :D
But to me, the solution seems simple. Just attach positive or negative morality points to actions, but don't tell players when they gain these. Or give them a FUCKING METER, for that matter. Then, when the consequences of their actions come full circle, they suddenly see the err of their ways.
Take the chest-looting Mr. Butts (lol) was talking about, for example. People would instinctively loot everything in sight, unaware of the consequences of their actions. Suddenly, when the horns, evil aura, and other such shit starts showing up, the player is smacked by the cold reality of LIFE :eek:
 

Schwerganoik

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Jul 1, 2010
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Jaker the Baker said:
Holy crap, Steve, judging from the size of people's posts, you seem to be attracting all of the Escapist's intellectuals. Bravo :D
But to me, the solution seems simple. Just attach positive or negative morality points to actions, but don't tell players when they gain these. Or give them a FUCKING METER, for that matter. Then, when the consequences of their actions come full circle, they suddenly see the err of their ways.
Take the chest-looting Mr. Butts (lol) was talking about, for example. People would instinctively loot everything in sight, unaware of the consequences of their actions. Suddenly, when the horns, evil aura, and other such shit starts showing up, the player is smacked by the cold reality of LIFE :eek:
If evil 20
Then grow horns, change skintone to red, print "BAM! YOU'RE EVIL, ************!"

Does that look right?
 

Aurgelmir

WAAAAGH!
Nov 11, 2009
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There was a game I once played that would not let you go around mindlessly butchering anyone... Well if you played the right class that is.

In the Quest for Glory games, at least the fifth one when you played as a paladin you got a negative paladin rank EVERYTIME you killed a human, no matter what.

This lead to some interesting game play, here you are the most powerful warrior in the game and you couldn't kill the brigands at your door.

Kill to many and your rank of paladin got stripped away.
 

jthm

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Jun 28, 2008
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Really? You all don't play Evil? I generally play a Lionhead, Bioware or Bethesda title at least 3 times. 1 all good, 1 all evil and one where I choose what I want at the time.