The Harder Hard modes

[Killspre]

I've been noticing a trend of late with games that has got me worried and that is the harder hard mode in games. Recently I've played 2 games at first on normal then on the hardest setting and noticed little to no difference in the ai except for they can take a bit more damage and you take a bit less. This is a reward in some games too and all it really does is punish players who want to act like Rambo. The 2 games I am talking about are Mass Effect 2 and Dues Ex:HR. Most recently was Mass Effect 2 because my friend kept telling me I have to play it so I did, I beat it and am playing again on insanity. The ai is still as stupid as before leaving cover and slowly walking towards me, beyond the fact now every enemy has shields and armor there is no change. I can think of more games like this too whats the point of it? It isn't a harder challenge for player who beat the game its just more tedious. Anyone else thinks this is bs?

 

[x EvilErmine x]

Yeah I'm plying through Deus Ex: HR again and I have to say I agree with you. I've noticed no significant difference playing on 'Give me Deus Ex' as opposed to 'Give me a Challenge' mode.
The only thing that seems to have changed is that now Adam has slightly lower health. Everything else is the same.

 

[oplinger]

Well, most difficulties are just a numeric shift, you take more damage, they take less. It's easier to do it that way, and it works for the majority of people.

My issue with it, is games like ME2, and DE:HR, and even CoD, and most games like that, i run in to the same problem. My tactics don't change, but if I mess up, I die. In ME2, if i come out of cover for too long, I die in seconds. On normal/easy? What the hell is cover? Same with DE:HR. CoD ends up being whoever shoots first.

I don't think it's BS... I think it's really what difficulty boils down to, without just programming your game to be hard in the first place. And all games just shift the numbers around for difficulty settings really. Some may do more though. (Changing numbers is much easier than changing say..numbers of enemies, adding/removing cover, changing the puzzles..)

 

[dimensional]

I liked the way Bayonetta handled it by mixing up enemy placements as well as getting rid of a key ability on the hardest setting and not just making enemies hit harder and take more damage it made the game feel substantially different on every setting.

Fighting games on hardest settings tend to be brutal though as they are literally machines no combo is ever dropped perfect execution you obviously cant psyche them out and usually they cheat as well reading your inputs or performing seemingly impossible links meaning really to beat them you usually have to exploit known gaps in their AI (if your mortal) usually by spamming certain moves over and over and cross your fingers or of course become a god at the game yourself.

 

[Killspre]

Well, most difficulties are just a numeric shift, you take more damage, they take less. It's easier to do it that way, and it works for the majority of people.

My issue with it, is games like ME2, and DE:HR, and even CoD, and most games like that, i run in to the same problem. My tactics don't change, but if I mess up, I die. In ME2, if i come out of cover for too long, I die in seconds. On normal/easy? What the hell is cover? Same with DE:HR. CoD ends up being whoever shoots first.

I don't think it's BS... I think it's really what difficulty boils down to, without just programming your game to be hard in the first place. And all games just shift the numbers around for difficulty settings really. Some may do more though. (Changing numbers is much easier than changing say..numbers of enemies, adding/removing cover, changing the puzzles..)

I understand that for hard mode and usually accept it but these too stand out for me for good reason. Mass Effect 2's insanity difficulty is 2 levels above what is considered the normal hard mode, but in truth it isn't harder. I'm not gonna say I never died but it feels like any other hard mode in any other game. Dues Ex:HR stands out because its hard is the exact same as its normal. There was no difficulty spike I actually stopped playing dues ex for like 2 months reloaded my save from awhile back and had no difficulties at all. I even got the trophy for never being seen. These harder modes even were rewards in games like Gears 2 and Resident Evil 5. I'm just saying if you are going to say its harder than hard I shouldn't have such an easy time playing it. I literally am already half way done on my second play through (if I don't do the side missions) and I started it yesterday.

 

[oplinger]

Well, most difficulties are just a numeric shift, you take more damage, they take less. It's easier to do it that way, and it works for the majority of people.

My issue with it, is games like ME2, and DE:HR, and even CoD, and most games like that, i run in to the same problem. My tactics don't change, but if I mess up, I die. In ME2, if i come out of cover for too long, I die in seconds. On normal/easy? What the hell is cover? Same with DE:HR. CoD ends up being whoever shoots first.

I don't think it's BS... I think it's really what difficulty boils down to, without just programming your game to be hard in the first place. And all games just shift the numbers around for difficulty settings really. Some may do more though. (Changing numbers is much easier than changing say..numbers of enemies, adding/removing cover, changing the puzzles..)

I understand that for hard mode and usually accept it but these too stand out for me for good reason. Mass Effect 2's insanity difficulty is 2 levels above what is considered the normal hard mode, but in truth it isn't harder. I'm not gonna say I never died but it feels like any other hard mode in any other game. Dues Ex:HR stands out because its hard is the exact same as its normal. There was no difficulty spike I actually stopped playing dues ex for like 2 months reloaded my save from awhile back and had no difficulties at all. I even got the trophy for never being seen. These harder modes even were rewards in games like Gears 2 and Resident Evil 5. I'm just saying if you are going to say its harder than hard I shouldn't have such an easy time playing it. I literally am already half way done on my second play through (if I don't do the side missions) and I started it yesterday.

Yeah, but my point is, ME2 and DE:HR both use cover as a main mechanic for everything. Cover makes you not die. If you're an okay shot, plus cover, it's really difficult to make a number shift work out to make it any harder. It just means you stay in cover longer.

What they would have needed to do, is change the game mechanically from the get go, like, say, no regenerating health in combat or something.

It's just, the difficulties are harder, but they have a mechanic that sort of negates the whole thing. For the short parts of Gears I've played, it's in the same boat. It's really annoying if you're any good at anything, but.. I can't say it's BS, it works.

 

[Killspre]

]

Yeah, but my point is, ME2 and DE:HR both use cover as a main mechanic for everything. Cover makes you not die. If you're an okay shot, plus cover, it's really difficult to make a number shift work out to make it any harder. It just means you stay in cover longer.

What they would have needed to do, is change the game mechanically from the get go, like, say, no regenerating health in combat or something.

It's just, the difficulties are harder, but they have a mechanic that sort of negates the whole thing. For the short parts of Gears I've played, it's in the same boat. It's really annoying if you're any good at anything, but.. I can't say it's BS, it works.

Taking out a mechanic like that would actually make the game harder but these games to me prove that the current way doesn't work to just make the enemies harder to kill. In a stealth game like Dues Ex:HR the AI should be better at spotting you on a harder difficulty but they are not. They still give you the instant knock out button as well as the one hit tranquilizer sniper and stun gun. Making the increased health and your lessened health useless. ME2 for insanity is a lesson in patience not really skill, there ai will still slowly walk towards you outta cover allowing you plenty of free shots, and your companions abilities help you kill them easily as well. Taking out a regenerating health would help make it harder but you would be dealing with the same stupid AI. This is a higher difficulty than hard keep in mind and its AI should be smarter than normal. You say its easier but it just comes off as lazy.

 

[Drizzitdude]

Dmc 4: dante must die mode. *cries in corner*

 

[oplinger]

Taking out a mechanic like that would actually make the game harder but these games to me prove that the current way doesn't work to just make the enemies harder to kill. In a stealth game like Dues Ex:HR the AI should be better at spotting you on a harder difficulty but they are not. They still give you the instant knock out button as well as the one hit tranquilizer sniper and stun gun. Making the increased health and your lessened health useless. ME2 for insanity is a lesson in patience not really skill, there ai will still slowly walk towards you outta cover allowing you plenty of free shots, and your companions abilities help you kill them easily as well. Taking out a regenerating health would help make it harder but you would be dealing with the same stupid AI. This is a higher difficulty than hard keep in mind and its AI should be smarter than normal. You say its easier but it just comes off as lazy.

Lazy, sure. I think that word gets kinda tossed around a lot here when people may not really understand how making a game works, but if you mean, it takes less effort than the other way, and is therefore lazy, then yes. It is lazy.

if however, you mean to say it's lazy because the developer took the easy way out and are shitty for doing it, then I would have to point out, they don't get a lot of choice. A decision like that would have to fit within the projected timeline from the beginning. And even so, when they think about difficulty, it may be way later in the development period, where things are already in place mechanically. So all they can do is change the numbers in some file hidden away somewhere. Changing the entire AI would take months of work. Redesigning levels wouldn't take as much, but it would still take plenty of time. (changing geometry, collision detections, scripting interactivity, adding AI waypoints to the new geometry, etc)

It's much easier to do a number shift.

Many games are not made to cater to people of high skill, or people who love super challenges. Broader audiences and what not, but they do exist. MGS4 (I think 3 had some of this too) has the super hard difficulties, where the enemies can see you better, hear your ipod from 200 yards away, and can even smell you, but those decisions to do that were made from the get go.

I run into this difficulty problem a lot though... I used to play games on easy, because I didn't care to be challenge. Now I play on the hardest difficulties out of the box and I have to say, 90% of the games I play are a disappointment challenge wise. It's sad, it's stupid, but it's not lazy... It's something much worse.

 

[Killspre]

Lazy, sure. I think that word gets kinda tossed around a lot here when people may not really understand how making a game works, but if you mean, it takes less effort than the other way, and is therefore lazy, then yes. It is lazy.

if however, you mean to say it's lazy because the developer took the easy way out and are shitty for doing it, then I would have to point out, they don't get a lot of choice. A decision like that would have to fit within the projected timeline from the beginning. And even so, when they think about difficulty, it may be way later in the development period, where things are already in place mechanically. So all they can do is change the numbers in some file hidden away somewhere. Changing the entire AI would take months of work. Redesigning levels wouldn't take as much, but it would still take plenty of time. (changing geometry, collision detections, scripting interactivity, adding AI waypoints to the new geometry, etc)

It's much easier to do a number shift.

Many games are not made to cater to people of high skill, or people who love super challenges. Broader audiences and what not, but they do exist. MGS4 (I think 3 had some of this too) has the super hard difficulties, where the enemies can see you better, hear your ipod from 200 yards away, and can even smell you, but those decisions to do that were made from the get go.

I run into this difficulty problem a lot though... I used to play games on easy, because I didn't care to be challenge. Now I play on the hardest difficulties out of the box and I have to say, 90% of the games I play are a disappointment challenge wise. It's sad, it's stupid, but it's not lazy... It's something much worse.

You misunderstood what I meant I like these games well enough but Mass Effect 2 shouldn't have this insanity difficulty, no game to me should go beyond hard because these harder hard modes aren't a better challenge. Programmers give them as rewards say you got balls of steel for taking this challenge on but then its the same as normal but you die a little quicker. I know it isn't cheap to make a game and actually make harder AI for hard modes but some games do demand it for harder modes. This comes off as lazy it isn't that it is lazy. While that doesn't make sense what I mean is yes developers have deadlines games cost shit tons of money but that doesn't mean they should repackage hard mode 3 times or even worse to me is it being a reward for beating it.

 

[kayo of the Well]

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[Kahunaburger]

It's hard to make scaling challenge. Most devs opt to make easy games, then tweak numbers in the enemy's favor for harder difficulties. I would prefer they made hard, balanced games, then tweaked things down for easier difficulties.

 

[Aerosteam]

Yes, it tends to be the cover-based shooters that have a regenerating health mechanic that make harder hard modes stupid.

I'm just thinking right now: Is there any shooter that doesn't just improve enemy health and damage on the harder difficulties? Sure, it is harder, but it's not like a new strategy is needed, you just need to be more cautious/patient.

RPGs tend to have 'proper' hard modes... I think. I'm not sure, I tend to play RPGs on the easiest difficulty. The only major time I put an RPG on a hard difficulty was on the Golems of Amgarrak DLC for Dragon Age: Origins when fighting against the Harvester. To get that damn achievement, obviously. When you are a warrior who uses two-handed weapons... The Harvester will kick. Your. Ass. I still managed to do it though... After several hours.

 

[krazykidd]

All the time . I actually go on hard mode from the start . Deus ex:hr , i started my first playthrough on "give me deus ex" , and breezed through it , very dissapointing . I can't compare to easiers modes because i didn't play the easier modes .

Same thing with two worlds 2, a game i started playing last week , started on hard mode , and find the game too easy .

But then again , i might just be too good at games , i have been playing games on hard mode for so long that i am used to it . I realized this when my friend came over to my house and was playing deus ex: HR , and dead space On easy mode and was having trouble . Thats when i realized that i was the exception instead of the rule. Most people don't play as many hours of video games as i do , thus for them hard mode on all these games are geared towards " normal " people , not people like me who spend every waking hour playing games. I guess i just play too many games to be able to appreciate , hard mode properly .