"The Hobbit" vs "The Hobbit" Pub

[baconsarnie]

So in southampton there is a pub called 'The Hobbit', it has been named that for the last twenty years but now (in the last couple of weeks) the Saul Zaentz Company (who own the merchandising and film rights to some of Tolkien's works) have contacted the management of 'The Hobbit' and told them that EVERYTHING in the bar is a copyright infringement. This includes the name of the pub, the titles of the drinks and even the artwork on the walls.
A facebook campaign has already been launched (facebook.com/SaveTheHobbitSouthampton) with over 40,000 'likes', stephen fry himself has even tweeted on the subject calling it "pointless, self-defeating bullying".
bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-17366992
What do you make of this then?
I get that they have to defend their legal right in the matter but it just seems very petty and could spell the end of a fantastic pub if lawyers get involved.
Thoughts? Is everyone overreacting and the pub re-brand? Is this copyright enforcement stomping on a loving tribute to a great literary work?

(edit)Petition link if anyone is interested
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-the-hobbit-pub-in-southampton/

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Well, according to my friends and brother who love in Southampton The Hobbit is a pretty unique pub, complete with specific drinks named after the members of the Fellowship which you can order. I don't see what the company possibly has to gain from this.

 

[Palfreyfish]

They probably want to close the place down so that they can open their own official hobbit pub. In my eyes this is a pointless waste of the company's time, and the Pub's time. It's not harming anyone. How is it bad for the big corporation? It doesn't affect them negatively does it...

If I were the Saul Zaentz Company, I'd just offer the landlady a sum of money and buy the pub, and then keep it open. It would probably be quicker than going to court etc, and in the long run probably cheaper.

That way, everyone's happy. Pub stays open, and there's no copyright infringement...

 

[baconsarnie]

It seems Ian McKellen is a supporter as well
http://www.mckellen.com/cinema/hobbit-movie/120314.htm
Couldn't the name and associated stuff be licensed to the pub for a one-off fee perhaps?
Would save everyone a lot of hassle, all that seems to be happening at the moment is a lot of bad press for the company.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Awkward.

On the one hand, it doesn't sound like a good thing, but on the other, if they make their place of business based after someone else's IP...that's something they should have seen coming.

 

[Superbeast]

I used to drink there (before moving to wetter climes for university). It is sad news indeed - particularly because the pub is run by, and inhabited by, fans of Tolkien's work.

I'm not sure they have the right to pursue this legally - exactly what the "rights" the company has are hazy to me. I was under the impression that copyright is limited in scope, it does not protect ideas but works, and as the Saul Zaentz Company has not produced its own pub, or themed drinks, then it has no legal rights to them (this is where the licensing from the Tolkien Estate could come into play). Particularly as The Hobbit (pub) has been called that for 23 years, and the Saul Zaentz Company did not get the licenses for the UK until 15 years ago.

The landlady has said that the pub might have to capitulate simply because it cannot afford the legal fees to take on such a massive company (I should think that, best case scenario, even if the case was won by the pub and the losers had to pay legal fees, the Saul Zaentz Company can just keep appealing until the pub cannot afford to continue).

I agree with Stephen Fry's comments - this is pointless bullying. Good to see that Sir Ian McKellen is on-side too!

 

[Dejawesp]

I think we need to crush this pub as punishment for waving facebook "likes" in our faces as if they had some sort of significance. Stuff those Zuckerberg coins up the owners butt and kick him out on the street.


And yeah the Saul Zaentz Company is in the right legally here too. They own the right to the name. He used the name with a reference to The Hobbit IP owned by Saul Zaentz Company.


If the bar was allowed to get away with this then I would open "the Apple iphone bar" in the middle of town and make a fortune on all of Steve Jobs zombies and cultists as they gobble up the IP connection.

 

[Hoplon]

Pretty much they don't have any choice but to do this thanks to the way IP law works, if they don't defend it it becomes fair game. It's the same thing that makes marvel etc sue everyone vaguely similar.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

and the copywrite monster strikes again. This kind of bullying acheives nothing and I cannot fathom what the point is other than to..well, bully.

This is like when Lady Gaga forced an tiny icecream shop to shut down because it was named "Baby Gaga".

This is FREE ADVERTISING, you would think they'd love it.

 

[Realitycrash]

Uh, isn't the book public domain yet? If they started the pub before the movies came about, it should be clear.

 

[Macgyvercas]

I think we need to crush this pub as punishment for waving facebook "likes" in our faces as if they had some sort of significance. Stuff those Zuckerberg coins up the owners butt and kick him out on the street.


And yeah the Saul Zaentz Company is in the right legally here too. They own the right to the name. He used the name with a reference to The Hobbit IP owned by Saul Zaentz Company.


If the bar was allowed to get away with this then I would open "the Apple iphone bar" in the middle of town and make a fortune on all of Steve Jobs zombies and cultists as they gobble up the IP connection.

The OP stated the pub had been named that for the past 20 years. This isn't a new business springing up to capitalize on the popularity of LotR.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Uh, isn't the book public domain yet? If they started the pub before the movies came about, it should be clear.

IIRC, it's 75 years since the death of the author, so anyone who died in 1937 or before is fair game. Tolkien was alive during WW2, IIRC, so no.

and the copywrite monster strikes again. This kind of bullying acheives nothing and I cannot fathom what the point is other than to..well, bully.

This is like when Lady Gaga forced an tiny icecream shop to shut down because it was named "Baby Gaga".

This is FREE ADVERTISING, you would think they'd love it.

I dunno. I think I'd be pissed off as well if they used my stuff for their business without asking my permission.

 

[Realitycrash]

Uh, isn't the book public domain yet? If they started the pub before the movies came about, it should be clear.

IIRC, it's 75 years since the death of the author, so anyone who died in 1937 or before is fair game. Tolkien was alive during WW2, IIRC, so no.

and the copywrite monster strikes again. This kind of bullying acheives nothing and I cannot fathom what the point is other than to..well, bully.

This is like when Lady Gaga forced an tiny icecream shop to shut down because it was named "Baby Gaga".

This is FREE ADVERTISING, you would think they'd love it.

I dunno. I think I'd be pissed off as well if they used my stuff for their business without asking my permission.

Well, crap. Gonnna go look up public domain and see if there is a loophole.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well, crap. Gonnna go look up public domain and see if there is a loophole.

IIRC, it used to be 50 years since the death of the author, but then Disney made the US change the rules so that nobody else could use Mickey Mouse, and then made the US make the rest of the world follow suit.

So, they'll keep on increasing the length of time and Tolkien won't ever be long dead enough.

 

[Petromir]

Pretty much they don't have any choice but to do this thanks to the way IP law works, if they don't defend it it becomes fair game. It's the same thing that makes marvel etc sue everyone vaguely similar.

THey do have a choice:

1) Not do anything, but that in effect opens the flood gates.

2) Legitimise the Hobbit pub, best for PR but legal advice isn't going to be happy as they get much more money sueing than just legitimising.

3) Sue them, force them to change.

4) Do 2 then 3.

 

[Realitycrash]

Well, crap. Gonnna go look up public domain and see if there is a loophole.

IIRC, it used to be 50 years since the death of the author, but then Disney made the US change the rules so that nobody else could use Mickey Mouse, and then made the US make the rest of the world follow suit.

So, they'll keep on increasing the length of time and Tolkien won't ever be long dead enough.

Well who the hell sold the rights to the movie-makers then?

 

[Melon Hunter]

Awkward.

On the one hand, it doesn't sound like a good thing, but on the other, if they make their place of business based after someone else's IP...that's something they should have seen coming.

It's been around for 20 years, so the books were long since out at the time, and this was long before the LoTR films were even a glimmer in Peter Jackson's eye. The fact that the pub has existed unopposed for a decade since the LoTR films came out just further serves to show the utter absurdity of this lawsuit. This is an affectionate support of Tolkien's work, not a cynical move to make money out of the IP.

Besides, this is overlooking a very important point; this is probably one of the only places in the world where you can walk in, say "I'll have a Gandalf," and not only be understood, but be given alcohol to boot!

I think we need to crush this pub as punishment for waving facebook "likes" in our faces as if they had some sort of significance. Stuff those Zuckerberg coins up the owners butt and kick him out on the street.


And yeah the Saul Zaentz Company is in the right legally here too. They own the right to the name. He used the name with a reference to The Hobbit IP owned by Saul Zaentz Company.


If the bar was allowed to get away with this then I would open "the Apple iphone bar" in the middle of town and make a fortune on all of Steve Jobs zombies and cultists as they gobble up the IP connection.

I direct you to my above post, and ask you to take your head out of your ass and do some basic research before making such a brash comment. You honestly think a pub that is themed after Tolkien's work in appreciation should be crushed under a corporation simply because they dared to show they had supporters via a Facebook campaign? What a horrible, vindictive person you are. The pub was named the Hobbit before the Saul Zantez Company got the IP rights, and it has existed happily for a decade, whilst the LoTR films came out, hobbits and all. Was any harm done in said decade to the revenues of the Saul Zantez Company? Hardly. I would rather support a pub that might be breaking copyright law than a company that got too greedy and decided only now to chase after something so insignificant.

 

[Soxafloppin]

Just bullying.

I'm going to call in for a pint of Gandalf and two packs of cheese and onion.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Well, crap. Gonnna go look up public domain and see if there is a loophole.

IIRC, it used to be 50 years since the death of the author, but then Disney made the US change the rules so that nobody else could use Mickey Mouse, and then made the US make the rest of the world follow suit.

So, they'll keep on increasing the length of time and Tolkien won't ever be long dead enough.

Well who the hell sold the rights to the movie-makers then?

Presumably whoever inherited them, they get passed along like everything else.

Not a bad little earner that, if you happen to have a dead parent or grandparent who's written something they want to make into a film.