The Horus Heresy novels, what do you think of them?

[gigastar]

Despite the shit he got away with in the past, Ward has proven he can do something decent when he is assigned an editor.

And his shit still doesnt compare to what Goto gets away with.

Hey? Didn't they drop Goto a few years back?

Now, yeah, at the time Goto's stuff was unprecedentedly bad (got me kicked off the BL forum for saying so, though the mods then lied about it), but Ward still seems much worse. Goto didn't do much more than write dreadful LotR fanfic as 40k stories, he didn't do much to the continuity, IIRC.

If they did drop Goto, ive not heard of it. And can only hope they "dropped" him by way of slam-dunking him into the nearest volcano. He deserves worse though.

Also Goto's list of shit is quite a bit longer than Wards.

See here: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/C.S._Goto

 

[J.McMillen]

I've been slowly working my way through the books (almost finished 'Tales of Heresy'). I've enjoyed them, some more than others.

I think the real issue is that they are making novels for every side story out there which is sidetracking the main story of Horus's betrayal. The first 5 books really go into the original legions turning traitor, after that it's a long way till you get back to Horus. Some of the side stuff is important to the main story, but some could have been put into an alternate parallel series.

 

[Tiger King]

I'd say it's a blend myself of ww1 and ww2.

Well, like you say, Double Eagle was the battle of Britain. Straight Silver, OTOH, was very much WW1 trench warfare.

Regardless, it lacks imagination in my opinion, the Horus heresy books were the first of his where I saw how good he is.

Wasn't fussed with his Heresy stuff, TBH, but that might have been because he'd done so many similar BL books before.

Legion, for example, was a mix of ideas he'd done to death already.

I'll also say that, IMHO, BL in general had gone into a decline before the HH stuff got going. Back in the day, they generally had good solid authors, people who were known for other stuff before BL work.

Later on, there was a trend to get people who'd worked on the rulebooks. I don't think McNeill, Thorpe or Chambers, for example, would have been able to write BL stuff if they'd not worked for GW.

You also got people who'd done nothing before. For example, when Bill King (who was an established author before BL) stopped doing the popular Space Wolves books, they gave them to two authors who'd not done anything before, but were big fans. Gotrek and Felix was given to Nathan Long, a rather mediocre author...in fairness though, I got the impression he was trying with the G&F stuff, which I haven't with his previous BL stuff.

Also...when a franchise gets big enough, you can pump out any garbage and people will buy it, which I think was the root problem.

Sorry for my rubbish quoting I'm on my iplod.
Have you ever read lord of the night?
it's the best story in my opinion to come out of black library, sadly the author Simon spurrior moved on to DC comics I think...
this guy should have been kept hold of, I agree with you too many mediocre authors have taken the reins at black library but we keep paying up

 

[Thaluikhain]

If they did drop Goto, ive not heard of it. And can only hope they "dropped" him by way of slam-dunking him into the nearest volcano. He deserves worse though.

Also Goto's list of shit is quite a bit longer than Wards.

See here: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/C.S._Goto

Wiki says he's not done anything for a few years.

I didn't remember most of that stuff...excepting the multilasers, which never struck me as a big deal. Sticking bolters to the side of drop pods to shoot randomly on the way down to keep away the swarms of gargoyles that would otherwise destroy them, an Inquisitor calling Space Marines "boy scouts", OTOH...

Have you ever read lord of the night?
it's the best story in my opinion to come out of black library, sadly the author Simon spurrior moved on to DC comics I think...
this guy should have been kept hold of, I agree with you too many mediocre authors have taken the reins at black library but we keep paying up

Yeah, hands down best story about marines BL has done...best story though would go to Jack Yeovil for Drachenfels or Beasts in Velvet (written before BL existed, but republished).

Also, best depiction of the Heresy.

Interesting in that before that, both of those would have been taken by Angels of Darkness. Lord of the Night very obviously was heavily influenced by that book, verging on ripping it off in parts, but managed to go a little bit better.

Angels of Darkness is a great book, though, though the pacing is a bit off, and there's a few minor mistakes. When it came out...people were crying at the ending.

 

[Tiger King]

If they did drop Goto, ive not heard of it. And can only hope they "dropped" him by way of slam-dunking him into the nearest volcano. He deserves worse though.

Also Goto's list of shit is quite a bit longer than Wards.

See here: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/C.S._Goto

Wiki says he's not done anything for a few years.

I didn't remember most of that stuff...excepting the multilasers, which never struck me as a big deal. Sticking bolters to the side of drop pods to shoot randomly on the way down to keep away the swarms of gargoyles that would otherwise destroy them, an Inquisitor calling Space Marines "boy scouts", OTOH...

Have you ever read lord of the night?
it's the best story in my opinion to come out of black library, sadly the author Simon spurrior moved on to DC comics I think...
this guy should have been kept hold of, I agree with you too many mediocre authors have taken the reins at black library but we keep paying up

Yeah, hands down best story about marines BL has done...best story though would go to Jack Yeovil for Drachenfels or Beasts in Velvet (written before BL existed, but republished).

Also, best depiction of the Heresy.

Interesting in that before that, both of those would have been taken by Angels of Darkness. Lord of the Night very obviously was heavily influenced by that book, verging on ripping it off in parts, but managed to go a little bit better.

Angels of Darkness is a great book, though, though the pacing is a bit off, and there's a few minor mistakes. When it came out...people were crying at the ending.

Think I have that book somewhere, must dig it out sometime.

Honestly, I felt lord of the night was influenced a bit by batman.
The author is clearly into his comics and I felt a bit of batman was in there.

Another black library book I can hands down say is good is storm of iron, have you read that?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Honestly, I felt lord of the night was influenced a bit by batman.
The author is clearly into his comics and I felt a bit of batman was in there.

Well...before the book came out, in the White Dwarf magazine they were giving details about all the Primarchs, and Kurze's backstory was very much Batman crossed with the Predator. So, that's what Spurrier had to work with.

Another black library book I can hands down say is good is storm of iron, have you read that?

Yeah, back in the day I'd get everything BL published.

I wouldn't say that Storm of Iron was that good...it was definitely readable, but had the problem that its story made no sense whatsoever. McNeill wanted to write a Napoleonic era siege, only a Napoleonic era siege didn't make any sense in context.

However, he mostly got around that, and it wasn't a big problem that it made no sense. He also has the advantage over Abnett when doing something like that, in that he wasn't so attached to his characters. Fans make a big fuss over how many Ghosts die in Abnett's books...but majorish characters only start dying after something like 5 books, despite them being in over the top battles. They generally don't lose more than one a book either.

IMHO, McNeill's writing peaked about then. He'd done Nightbringer before then, which was alright, but not very memorable. His later stuff wasn't as good, and he really liked sticking movie references in for no good reason.

 

[Tiger King]

Honestly, I felt lord of the night was influenced a bit by batman.
The author is clearly into his comics and I felt a bit of batman was in there.

Well...before the book came out, in the White Dwarf magazine they were giving details about all the Primarchs, and Kurze's backstory was very much Batman crossed with the Predator. So, that's what Spurrier had to work with.

Another black library book I can hands down say is good is storm of iron, have you read that?

Yeah, back in the day I'd get everything BL published.

I wouldn't say that Storm of Iron was that good...it was definitely readable, but had the problem that its story made no sense whatsoever. McNeill wanted to write a Napoleonic era siege, only a Napoleonic era siege didn't make any sense in context.

However, he mostly got around that, and it wasn't a big problem that it made no sense. He also has the advantage over Abnett when doing something like that, in that he wasn't so attached to his characters. Fans make a big fuss over how many Ghosts die in Abnett's books...but majorish characters only start dying after something like 5 books, despite them being in over the top battles. They generally don't lose more than one a book either.

IMHO, McNeill's writing peaked about then. He'd done Nightbringer before then, which was alright, but not very memorable. His later stuff wasn't as good, and he really liked sticking movie references in for no good reason.

Ah man, I thought storm of iron was great!
I really liked the characters from both sides so I was never sure who I wanted to win.
I found myself sympathising with honsou a lot even though he is a bad person.
The Titan battles I found riveting and the twists and revelations were good too. (even though it changed nothing in the 40k universe)
Although to be fair this was the first black library book I ever bought, though saying that I find most stuff black library dosent rise to this books standard.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I really liked the characters from both sides so I was never sure who I wanted to win.
I found myself sympathising with honsou a lot even though he is a bad person.
The Titan battles I found riveting and the twists and revelations were good too. (even though it changed nothing in the 40k universe)

Yeah, I'd agree with that, most people really fail to bring any of that off.

Although to be fair this was the first black library book I ever bought, though saying that I find most stuff black library dosent rise to this books standard.

Yeah, I'd agree with you on that as well. It's far from my favourite book, but way better than most.

 

[Tiger King]

I really liked the characters from both sides so I was never sure who I wanted to win.
I found myself sympathising with honsou a lot even though he is a bad person.
The Titan battles I found riveting and the twists and revelations were good too. (even though it changed nothing in the 40k universe)

Yeah, I'd agree with that, most people really fail to bring any of that off.

Although to be fair this was the first black library book I ever bought, though saying that I find most stuff black library dosent rise to this books standard.

Yeah, I'd agree with you on that as well. It's far from my favourite book, but way better than most.

What would you say is your favourite novel?

There is some good fan fiction about too, I think bolter and chainsword were doing an alternate universe thing called the dornian heresy. It's basically a what if? Type of project where the primarch dorn is corrupted and not Horus. It's interesting and well done but not official.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I really liked the characters from both sides so I was never sure who I wanted to win.
I found myself sympathising with honsou a lot even though he is a bad person.
The Titan battles I found riveting and the twists and revelations were good too. (even though it changed nothing in the 40k universe)

Yeah, I'd agree with that, most people really fail to bring any of that off.

Although to be fair this was the first black library book I ever bought, though saying that I find most stuff black library dosent rise to this books standard.

Yeah, I'd agree with you on that as well. It's far from my favourite book, but way better than most.

What would you say is your favourite novel?

From 40k?

Hmmm...maybe Lord of the Night. Angel of Darkness is up there, also Farseer by Will King, and some of his Space Wolf stuff. I liked the Inquisition War Trilogy as well, though many did not. Ben Counter's earlier stuff, the first 2 Soul Drinker stories (Soul Drinker and The Bleeding Chalice), Grey Knights and Daemonworld likewise.

 

[TimeLord]

I love the books. Every single one. Of course there are ones stronger than others but overall I love them.

I don't even care if we don't get to siege of Terra for years, we all know what happens in the end but we know little of the run up to it.


[HEADING=1]FOR THE EMPEROR![/HEADING]

I'm pretty much in same boat as you are. I love it and I'm collecting the paper backs and the hardcovers (cause I'm such a fucking nerd) and I'll admit, some stories are better than others but so far I'm happy with the series overall. You got any favorite stories in the series so far TimeLord?

I was a big fan of the two Dark Angels stories, 'Decent of Angels' and 'Fallen Angels' but since the story has been left on a stupid cliffhanger for 4 years I've given up waiting to find out what happens for a while now. I don't doubt they will return to Luther's story but I'm not holding my breath for it to be until the 30th+ book.

I love 'Deliverance Lost' and the Raven Guard in general and the story is made even more fantastic by the inclusion of pre-Great Crusade lore like the Primarch project and the long sealed labs left by the Emperor on Terra that Corax has to navigate through. Very much enjoyed the limited edition story Corax: Soulforge too.

Imperial Fist aren't getting nearly enough time as I'd like. Stories centring around Dorn post-Ullanor don't count. I want some Great Crusade stories about the Imperial Fist cracking heads!

Despite the obvious problems that have evolved into the Ultramarines from Matt Ward, I enjoyed 'Know No Fear' and 'Mark Of Calth' immensely! Seeing Gulliman, who we originally thought to be a massive stick in the mud with a stick up his arse, have to deal with the full blown effects of Lorgar turning traitor was an enjoyable read. Pre-Heresy Ultramarines rock.

Not too fond of the traitor legions. Not for any specific reason other than their questionable motives. The traitor Primarchs themselves are very interesting (Fulgrim, Alpharius) but I have trouble believing that hundreds of hundreds of thousands of previously loyal Space Marines suddenly renounce all their oaths to their All Father and creator for giggles.
Except the Night Lords, I'm quite sure that if Horus didn't turn then Curze would have been Erebus/Lorgar's next choice.

 

[Yuugasa]

Thanks OP, now I'm going to have re-install Dawn of War Renegade. Hope you are happy.

I love DoW.

I am happy, DoW is the shit.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I love the books. Every single one. Of course there are ones stronger than others but overall I love them.

I don't even care if we don't get to siege of Terra for years, we all know what happens in the end but we know little of the run up to it.


[HEADING=1]FOR THE EMPEROR![/HEADING]

I'm pretty much in same boat as you are. I love it and I'm collecting the paper backs and the hardcovers (cause I'm such a fucking nerd) and I'll admit, some stories are better than others but so far I'm happy with the series overall. You got any favorite stories in the series so far TimeLord?

I was a big fan of the two Dark Angels stories, 'Decent of Angels' and 'Fallen Angels' but since the story has been left on a stupid cliffhanger for 4 years I've given up waiting to find out what happens for a while now. I don't doubt they will return to Luther's story but I'm not holding my breath for it to be until the 30th+ book.

Have you read "Angels of Darkness"? Older book, so might not be canon, but has a modern Dark Angel and a Fallen Dark Angel talk about the Heresy in general and Luther and Jonson in particular. IMHO, much better than Descent of Angels (not read the other one).

 

[Yuugasa]

snip

As another has pointed out you can't starve the gods with lack of belief because they primarily subsist on survivalist emotions rather than faith.

Yeah it is interesting all the themes of parental/deity abandonment the heresy deals with. I think they for the most part they actually do it rather well, making the primarchs seem human without making them too immensely whiny.

On a side note Fulgrim has actually booted the daemon out at this point and is a traitor based on his ambition now instead of daemonic corruption.

 

[Yuugasa]

snip

Yeah the more they reveal about the Emperor's plans the more questions it raises about how he ever thought any of his polices would turn out well, kinda head scratching really. Even banning librarians was a massive mistake, as Gulliman realizes at the battle for Calth.

 

[Megalodon]

snip

As another has pointed out you can't starve the gods with lack of belief because they primarily subsist on survivalist emotions rather than faith.

Yeah, I was overly brief in my previous post. If memorey serves, the full plan was to deprive Chaos of servants by the spread of the Imperial Truth, so they are weakened/can't directly influence the material realm. Then build a new webway for human interstellar travel. Once the webway was done the final step was cutting the warp off from the material realm, rendeering chaos impotent.

Yeah it is interesting all the themes of parental/deity abandonment the heresy deals with. I think they for the most part they actually do it rather well, making the primarchs seem human without making them too immensely whiny.

Oh the stories are pretty well told overall, no argument form me there. Just that the entire mess could have been avoided if Empy was a better father.

On a side note Fulgrim has actually booted the daemon out at this point and is a traitor based on his ambition now instead of daemonic corruption.

I heard about that one, and it's undeniably better than leaving him possessed, but does kinda raises the issue of what the point to the deamon was in the first place. Would it have been so bad if they just left him as the fallen exemplar, corrupted by the silver tongue of the arch traitor?

 

[TimeLord]

Oh the stories are pretty well told overall, no argument form me there. Just that the entire mess could have been avoided if Empy was a better father.

"The Emperor was a brilliant scientist, a powerful warrior, and great psyker, but he was a terrible father..."
-Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines

I love the books. Every single one. Of course there are ones stronger than others but overall I love them.

I don't even care if we don't get to siege of Terra for years, we all know what happens in the end but we know little of the run up to it.


[HEADING=1]FOR THE EMPEROR![/HEADING]

I'm pretty much in same boat as you are. I love it and I'm collecting the paper backs and the hardcovers (cause I'm such a fucking nerd) and I'll admit, some stories are better than others but so far I'm happy with the series overall. You got any favorite stories in the series so far TimeLord?

I was a big fan of the two Dark Angels stories, 'Decent of Angels' and 'Fallen Angels' but since the story has been left on a stupid cliffhanger for 4 years I've given up waiting to find out what happens for a while now. I don't doubt they will return to Luther's story but I'm not holding my breath for it to be until the 30th+ book.

Have you read "Angels of Darkness"? Older book, so might not be canon, but has a modern Dark Angel and a Fallen Dark Angel talk about the Heresy in general and Luther and Jonson in particular. IMHO, much better than Descent of Angels (not read the other one).

I haven't but I've been recommended it before. Need to read Unremembered Empire first before I do anything else! Then I'll probably look into it.

 

[Scorched_Cascade]

Oh the stories are pretty well told overall, no argument form me there. Just that the entire mess could have been avoided if Empy was a better father.

No one will argue against that point, I don't think.

Scumbag Emperor:

-Lets his "sons" walk blindly into a galaxy dominated by the ruinous powers believing that devils dont exist.
-Creates them all especially for a purpose (executioners, statesmen, builders, shock troops, etc), doesn't tell them what he intended for them
-Deliberately fosters rivalry and competition between his sons
-Abandons the crusade without telling anyone why, even his chosen successor
-Blatantly played favourites and left some of his sons bitter (see Dorn v Perturabo, Roboute v Lorgar, etc, etc)
-Picked a son as his successor without counselling the others about it, left Horus to deal with that shit.

And for specific Primarchs:

-Rebuked Lorgar by sending his rival big brother to shit all over his proudest work and made him kneel in the ashes of the ruins, kneel to his rival sibling as well as the Emperor. Told him that all his works were nothing and that he alone had failed
-Didn't council Kurze who was broken by horrific visions of the future, you'd think Emp being a super powerful psyker could relate
-Stamped out the two unknown legions so forcibly that Sanguinius is afraid to reveal the flaw in his legion in case it ends with "another empty plinth"
-Told Magnus to GTFO warp studies without telling him *why*. The son that looks for an answer to everything, what did he think would happen here?
-Basically told Angron to man the fuck up and stop crying about his dead friends, dumped him and left his legion (who had never met the guy before) to pick up the pieces.

There are more examples (and some examples of him just being an out and out dick.)

It's small wonder that the slighted, the forgotten, the outshone and the poorly treated followed Horus into the dark. He was better family to them than the Emperor ever was.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I do like the series, but agree with many who don't on a few things. The biggest issue being that there is a lot of chaff in the form of unnecessary books and stories.

The other big problem has been mentioned several times so far - The Emperor. Prior to the HH series, much about him was left up to the reader on purpose, and reading through the books lets you know pretty easily how each author took it. He swings wildly from being a gigantic, arrogant, incompetent bastard (censoring Lorgar), to being an honest and caring super being that just has too much on his plate to deal with to properly deal with his sons (Giving Perturabo a warning that ends up driving him to Horus, which is shown to have been a complete and honest miscommunication between the Emperor and his son). He's in one book forgiving, and in the next a complete ass about everything.

This would be perfectly fine is it was speculation and opinion, like before, but it makes it hell when you give the series to a dozen authors that don't appear to be talking to each other.

One of the thing I did like about the series though is the split between loyalist and traitor primarchs - The ones that go traitor all do what they do because they love/admire the Emperor, while all the loyalist are doing it for the Imperium (The exception being the Twins, which are arguably loyalist at this point).