the Hugo awards and sad puppies.

[Something Amyss]

There are a lot of great authors who deserved Hugo's, but never got them, whatever their political beliefs and leanings. There are flaws with the Hugo's, but the Sad's were at best wallowing in self pity or delusional if they believed their own story.

I usually pull this quote out for more serious issues, but it seems to me that the "conspiracy" they were railing against was the fact that life's "not fair."

Of course, there's also the issue that quality is a subjective concept in fiction and people might simply not agree with what you think is quality.

 

[Zhukov]

Eh, fuck those guys.

Another bunch of miserable bastards screeching in terror at the thought of stories being written that don't cater to their specific and oddly exclusionary tastes.

And that's before we even get to the "rabid puppies", who were just plain poison.

I'm glad they got stomped. There may well have been, as Martin put it, some throwing out of the baby with the bathwater, but that particular bathwater stank so badly that I think seeing it flushed was worth a bruised baby or two.

 

[Erttheking]

Why with all the shit that's been going on lately have I been expected to keep up with countless groups with stupid ass names. Sad Puppies? Really?

Frankly the whole mess sounds like stupid bullshit.

 

[WindKnight]

Why with all the shit that's been going on lately have I been expected to keep up with countless groups with stupid ass names. Sad Puppies? Really?

Frankly the whole mess sounds like stupid bullshit.

And that's before we get the names the puppies coined for their opponents, SMOF (Secret Masters of Fandom) and CHORF (Cliquish Holier-than-thou Obnoxious Reactionary Fanatics)

 

[Phasmal]

Eh, fuck those guys.

Another bunch of miserable bastards screeching in terror at the thought of stories being written that don't cater to their specific and oddly exclusionary tastes.

And that's before we even get to the "rabid puppies", who were just plain poison.

I'm glad they got stomped. There may well have been, as Martin put it, some throwing out of the baby with the bathwater, but that particular bathwater stank so badly that I think seeing it flushed was worth a bruised baby or two.

Yeah, this. And I've heard people say that the two groups are different and that the ones who wanted to just push for certain authors just found it `useful` to side with the actual buttfuck crazy bigot-side. But no, if you side with people who -oh I don't know- think it'd be much better if women couldn't vote just because you are trying to preserve the sanctity of a freaking trophy, you guys are not better.

Though it's always funny to re-cover old ground with the `this is just because of diversity points and political correctness`- which of course is the only reason someone would want to read or write anything that wasn't `The Adventures of Captain Generic`.

But for me it's just the same old ground and the same old whining and the same old nothing will come of it.

 

[zerragonoss]

It?s an awarded given off a popular vote that most people won?t care about unless they are pointed to it with motivation other than the quality of the book, because most people don?t care about books. So you can list my down as not being surprised or caring that much.

From what was said. Tor put forward the book equivalent of Gone Home (one of the previous winners being about a guy having to come out as gay to his traditional Chinese family because a random thing happened so when someone tells a lie water falls on their head) It seemed far less like it was about Sci-Fi or Fantasy and far more about social issues just with a weird bit of Sci-Fi or Fantasy thrown in as a plot driving Mcguffin.

Well most of the best scfi and fantasy is about dressing up social issues in a different coat of paint. So people can get a new look at them without their preexisting baggage, or to take an idea to an extreme and seeing how it works out. In fact most the best, basicly every form of media is talking about social issues and the human condition, because the two are fundamental related and it?s hard to have a classic that is not trying to connect and effect its audience.

Actually, I demand people start accusing "us" of witchcraft. It's so much cooler than being a liberal.

First your skeletons, than your aliens, and now you want to be called witches. I have had it with this monster fluid identity nonsense you just want people to think you some kind of special snowflake.

 

[Mikeybb]

Well, I didn't really pay much attention to the hugos before, but I can say with a certainty that I will be paying even less attention to them from now on.
Groups of people flinging poo at each other is enough to put anyone off something, but then treating the awards as the bone to be fought over for their 'side' is a veritable icewater shower for cooling off any interest that could have been sparked in me.

Now, I'm not doing the thing where someone comes into the thread to announce how uninterested they are in the topic.
More It's an attempt to illustrate that this kind of blow up only harms the award for all associated.
Even people like me, who are so dimly aware of the hugos the extent of our contact was little more than a sticker that sometimes turned up on a book cover, are hearing about this and withdrawing.

Granted, they never really did anything to influence my purchasing before this anyway.
Not to say that a big sticker on the front of a book saying "award winner" or "nominee" doesn't catch the eye when browsing a shelf, but I don't think it's ever been enough to convince me to pick up a title based on that alone.
As such, I don't think it will hurt scifi/fantasy writing as a genre, but it will only serve to harm the hugos even if they do manage to find some way to reconcile all affronted parties in this latest poop flinging extravaganza.

That said, the idea that someone could find a way to reconcile the groups feels like such a far fetched concept that even the hugo voters would reject it as being too demanding on their suspension of disbelief.

 

[Zontar]

Eh, fuck those guys.

Another bunch of miserable bastards screeching in terror at the thought of stories being written that don't cater to their specific and oddly exclusionary tastes.

I think you've been given the wrong impression about what this is all about. It isn't about things catering or not catering to one specific case, it's about the fact that there is a group within the voter base who would practically give people the award based on who they knew, not the quality of the work or its popularity, something Steven King openly stated as being a reason he never wants is works to get a Hugo.

 

[Zontar]

Yeah, this. And I've heard people say that the two groups are different and that the ones who wanted to just push for certain authors just found it `useful` to side with the actual buttfuck crazy bigot-side. But no, if you side with people who -oh I don't know- think it'd be much better if women couldn't vote just because you are trying to preserve the sanctity of a freaking trophy, you guys are not better.

You've made an extraordinary claim with this statement, have any extraordinary evidence to back up that this is the case? Because from what I've seen there has been no one who comes anywhere near what you've claimed within the Sad Puppies (though given how many people are involved there could be a few, but then again given the Tor block even if there are a few that would at worst make them another side of the same coin which is at least open about what it is doing).

Though it's always funny to re-cover old ground with the `this is just because of diversity points and political correctness`- which of course is the only reason someone would want to read or write anything that wasn't `The Adventures of Captain Generic`.

Have you actually looked at science fiction lately? Those generic adventure pulps have long become the exception, and I can tell you that if a story needs diversity or political correctness to not be considered generic, it's still a stale, generic and frankly bad story that just happens to have diversity in it.

But for me it's just the same old ground and the same old whining and the same old nothing will come of it.

The reason that it seems like it's the same old ground and same old complaints is probably due to the fact that it's the same old problem that isn't being addressed.

 

[Phasmal]

You've made an extraordinary claim with this statement, have any extraordinary evidence to back up that this is the case? Because from what I've seen there has been no one who comes anywhere near what you've claimed within the Sad Puppies (though given how many people are involved there could be a few, but then again given the Tor block even if there are a few that would at worst make them another side of the same coin which is at least open about what it is doing).

I know that- I was talking about the OTHER stupidly-named group.

Have you actually looked at science fiction lately? Those generic adventure pulps have long become the exception, and I can tell you that if a story needs diversity or political correctness to not be considered generic, it's still a stale, generic and frankly bad story that just happens to have diversity in it.

Is that what you think ALL those stories are?

The reason that it seems like it's the same old ground and same old complaints is probably due to the fact that it's the same old problem that isn't being addressed.

I'mma just agree to disagree. I don't particularly think diversity/sci fi changing is a problem.

Either way- I think we can all agree the whole thing was a stupid hissy fit.

 

[Zontar]

I know that- I was talking about the OTHER stupidly-named group.

Oh, sorry about that, from the way I read it it seemed to be directed at the Sad Puppies, not the Rabbid Puppies. That's my bad.

Is that what you think ALL those stories are?

No, but it does apply to a few of those which got nominated and/or won.

Personally in my opinion diversity and political correctness in-and-of-itself have no bearing on the quality of a work, a good story is good regardless of how much or little of both it has, and a bad story is bad regardless as well. Some of the greatest and worst works have or lack both in spades after all.

 

[Phasmal]

I know that- I was talking about the OTHER stupidly-named group.

Oh, sorry about that, from the way I read it it seemed to be directed at the Sad Puppies, not the Rabbid Puppies. That's my bad.

Nah, I re-read it and it's a bit confusing the way I worded it just because I was avoiding the dumb names because I honestly couldn't take them seriously.

No, but it does apply to a few of those which got nominated and/or won.

Personally in my opinion diversity and political correctness in-and-of-itself have no bearing on the quality of a work, a good story is good regardless of how much or little of both it has, and a bad story is bad regardless as well. Some of the greatest and worst works have or lack both in spades after all.

I sort of agree and yet. I think some things with diversity will get noticed more now because there has been so much time before when there just was so little. I think it will even out soon, now that literally anyone can write about anything and get it out there. Things are often celebrated because they are different or doing things in a new way, and as always, quality can be a very subjective thing.

Still, this is making me wanna read more sci-fi, but again, when I do, I'd probably rather read a story with a female in the lead role. Just what I feel like reading lately, not that stories with lead guys aren't good too.

 

[Nielas]

It's not so much showing social issue it's actively beating the audience over the head with it with the sci-fi and fantasy elements take a back seat.

However, that is still very subjective. I read Larry Correia's work and I disliked how his politics were showing though the story. Of course, I do not agree with his political orientation so that will bias me. Someone more attuned with his views might not see the same issues I seen and might feel that Correia is not "beating the audience over the head" with them.

 

[WindKnight]

It's not so much showing social issue it's actively beating the audience over the head with it with the sci-fi and fantasy elements take a back seat.

This is the original Star Treks take on racism in one of its most celebrated episodes 'let this be your last battlefield'


Not a subtle point, but a point well made in a show - and an episode - regarded as classic Sci-Fi at its best.

 

[EternallyBored]

It's not so much showing social issue it's actively beating the audience over the head with it with the sci-fi and fantasy elements take a back seat.

However, that is still very subjective. I read Larry Correia's work and I disliked how his politics were showing though the story. Of course, I do not agree with his political orientation so that will bias me. Someone more attuned with his views might not see the same issues I seen and might feel that Correia is not "beating the audience over the head" with them.

By the same token, one of the authors the group (I don't know if it was the rabid or sad puppy groups or both) pushed this year was Tom Kratman, an author I've always disliked for letting his politics leak heavily into everything he writes, well that and being a petty jackass to his critics literally writing a poor parody of some of them into his books as whiny pansies for his author self-insert character to either kill or humiliate.

I mean really, the guy wrote a series where the whole story took place on an "alien planet" that was just Earth flipped upside down, where everything was pretty much as advanced as the 21st century because they lost all their advanced technology. The whole thing was just an excuse for him to write a tough military man killing and torturing Muslims after an obvious 9/11 attack happens on Not-Earth, not Muslim expys or standins, actual Muslims. While the only sci-fi element in the story are people from original Earth hanging out in spaceships over the planet acting as a mouthpiece for everything the author hates about liberals and the U.N.

Although in this case, I'm really more offended by his blatant mary sue characters and piss poor sci-fi elements than I am his politics. That and the frankly childish way he treats his critics. Even if I agreed with his politics, I doubt I could like his stories, I'm actually a big fan of sci-fi military fiction, even if a lot of it devolves into mindless action, military fetishism, or glorifying what amounts to Space America.

 

[WindKnight]

The commentary in the episode is about how little small differences should matter to treating people equally. You know that horrible horrible idea that "The best candidate should get the job" which is now Non PC because the term apparently should be "Give it to the person who yells they're oppressed the most cause otherwise they wouldn't get the job on their own merit clearly"

Last I checked, the ones screaming loudest about being oppressed were gaters and puppies. About how all the evil SJW's were saying mean things about them and taking their white man only toys and sharing them with everyone else.

 

[w00tage]

The Hugos became pure politics and really dont represent quality.

When did they ever represent quality?

There was a time. One example: http://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-history/1960-hugo-awards/