The Impossible DRM

Veylon

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Kojiro ftt said:
However, I think the technological barriers of a service like OnLive are nearly as impossible as DRM.
OnLive, if it gets big enough before collapsing, will end up being remembered like PowerPlay. The only thing that could make it work would be for either the speed of light to be upped or servers set up all over the world and everyone to have a direct T-1 line. Ain't gonna happen.
 

Doug

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Veylon said:
DRM exists because of ass-covering. If some manager takes out DRM and they have 20,000 pirates, they get blamed for it. If they leave it in, they get the same 20,000 pirates, but no blame because they did everything they could. Not terribly sensible, but very bureaucratic.
Sadly, this is probably true. If only top-tier management knew what the hell they where doing. Or if the system rewarded people for working things right. Still... if they are letting "The Sims 3" out without DRM, it MIGHT stick.

Veylon said:
Kojiro ftt said:
However, I think the technological barriers of a service like OnLive are nearly as impossible as DRM.
OnLive, if it gets big enough before collapsing, will end up being remembered like PowerPlay. The only thing that could make it work would be for either the speed of light to be upped or servers set up all over the world and everyone to have a direct T-1 line. Ain't gonna happen.
Quantum communication could do it - because of the quirks of quantum physic, the data link could end up as instant - but as far as I'm aware, no company has yet produced such technology.
 

Grampy_bone

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When Shamus said that DRM is pointless because the PC platform is 'open,' he was correct. However, while his conclusion is that publishers shouldn't bother with DRM because of this, publishers are taking the opposite stance: they want to make PCs a 'closed' platform. Hello Trusted Computing!

OnLive will be as successful as DivX (the movie service, not the codec). Remember DivX? Yeah, me neither.
 

randommaster

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File-sharing orgies are my third favorite.

I don't think I have to tell anybody what the other two are.
 

Keivz

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To the uninformed: The goal of DRM isn't to stop piracy--everyone already knows that's impossible. The goal is mainly to slow it down. Having a game uncracked for several days or more (Mass Effect, Bioshock, etc) can have a huge impact in sales.

2kGames Mark Reins:
"We achieved our goals. We were uncracked for 13 whole days. We were happy with it...You can't afford to be cracked. As soon as you're gone, you're gone, and your sales drop astronomically if you've got a day-one crack."

This is also the same idea behind Microsoft's new anti-piracy tech:
Drew Johnston, the product unit manager for the Windows Gaming Platform:
"We've heard from publishers that preauthorized release before streetdate can... they can lose half the sales, the revenue of the game. This is specifically aimed at helping reduce that for the publisher."

I say more power to them in trying to stop the pirates. Granted, there may come a point where the DRM/anti-piracy measures start to interfere with game enjoyment (and for some gamers, this point has been reached). However, I'd sooner stop playing games then start pointing the finger toward those trying to protect their games.
 

Skrapt

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4guy5montag1 said:
I hate to be the one that asks, but how do you propose to stop piracy in that case? Being in the music industry online piracy has been a major problem for artists, labels, and the population in general. Since this does cross over into games, how can it be effectively stopped?

The RIAA's utter lack of sense in suing fans for stealing music has been an abysmal failure, and I don't think the videogame industry has done something as stupid as that...though putting the SecuROM software onto my computer when I bought Spore did piss me off a good deal and evidently pissed off a lot of fans as well.

So my question is, how can this be solved?
Piracy cannot be solved. There is no way to curb piracy as whatever you do if someone has the know how and doesn't want to pay they will find a way - it simply has to be accepted as a fact of the digital age, and unless everyone moves towards completely closed platforms (please no) there is no quick fix. Alternative revenue streams are probably the best bet, not requiring the customer to pay for a product but getting money through adverts, micro-transactions, subscriptions and the like effectively competing with piracy which is something that thus far the studios seem incapable of.

Although personally I don't think you have to have an alternative solution to know that the current one is a abysmally stupid idea.
 

dochmbi

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GoldenShadow said:
Out of those 3 games you don't want to buy, Bioshock, Mass Effect and Spore, the only one that truly must be played is Bioshock. Mass Effect is ok, and Spore is a horrible game after the cell stage.
Except that Bioshock (PC) can't be played if you like precise mouse control. It's not just a small problem either, it's as though your character is heavily intoxicated.
 

dochmbi

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Veylon said:
Kojiro ftt said:
However, I think the technological barriers of a service like OnLive are nearly as impossible as DRM.
OnLive, if it gets big enough before collapsing, will end up being remembered like PowerPlay. The only thing that could make it work would be for either the speed of light to be upped or servers set up all over the world and everyone to have a direct T-1 line. Ain't gonna happen.
It will happen in the 20s, when everyone has at least a fiber optic 100/100 conection
 

Avatar Roku

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4guy5montag1 said:
I hate to be the one that asks, but how do you propose to stop piracy in that case? Being in the music industry online piracy has been a major problem for artists, labels, and the population in general. Since this does cross over into games, how can it be effectively stopped?

The RIAA's utter lack of sense in suing fans for stealing music has been an abysmal failure, and I don't think the videogame industry has done something as stupid as that...though putting the SecuROM software onto my computer when I bought Spore did piss me off a good deal and evidently pissed off a lot of fans as well.

So my question is, how can this be solved?
It can't be completely solved, but devs can come close by producing true quality games. For instance, I know many people who pirate damn near anything, but refuse to pirate a Valve game because they respect them.
dochmbi said:
GoldenShadow said:
Out of those 3 games you don't want to buy, Bioshock, Mass Effect and Spore, the only one that truly must be played is Bioshock. Mass Effect is ok, and Spore is a horrible game after the cell stage.
Except that Bioshock (PC) can't be played if you like precise mouse control. It's not just a small problem either, it's as though your character is heavily intoxicated.
Well, technically, he is heavily intoxicated.
 

CyberKnight

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dragontiers said:
What about concepts like OnLive. Wouldn't these services stop piracy? It's my understanding the actual "game" is on a server somewhere else and is streamed to you as you play, much the same way MMO's are.
Assuming it works (and that's a big assumption to start with), then yes, it would certainly make things a lot harder to pirate, because you'd never actually have the game code on your machine.

Of course, that's probably the #1 reason why I would never trust it (again, assuming all the technicalities proved themselves). If I don't have a disk in my hands, then the game I "bought" isn't mine, and it can very easily be taken away from me, accidentally or intentionally, by powers completely out of my control.

It's why I don't like the idea of digital downloads replacing disks either. Let me control how and where I play my games, thanks...
 

Lord_Jaroh

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dragontiers said:
This is probably one of the best written articles I've actually read in a long time (not that some of the others aren't good). One question I've got that wasn't addressed (probably because of lack of information): What about concepts like OnLive. Wouldn't these services stop piracy? It's my understanding the actual "game" is on a server somewhere else and is streamed to you as you play, much the same way MMO's are. In addition to it's other benefits (less hardware requirements, no disks etc. to lose/break, possiblility of cheaper prices/better quality control), this would seem to be a possible solution. I'm no expert on the matter, however, so feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken about something.
Assuming OnLive works, it suffers the same problems I have with Steam: I don't own the game, even though I buy it.

Am I renting the game or buying it? If I'm buying it, can I sell it? Can I let a buddy borrow it and try it out? Can I get my money back if it turns out to be a dud? Do I have to pay a monthly fee to access all games, or only some of them? What if OnLive dies...do I lose all of my information and games that I've payed for?

There are too many problems I have with online only distribution for me to agree to it.

EDIT: Piracy is the excuse when all they truely want to do is end the aftermarket of video games...
 

Arbre

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Lord_Jaroh said:
Assuming OnLive works, it suffers the same problems I have with Steam: I don't own the game, even though I buy it.
You never own the game.

And DRMs do work to some degree. Otherwise piracy would be even worse, no?
Obviously, the easier the piracy, the more there is, and the more tempting it is.
It's almost a principle.
 

dragontiers

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Lord_Jaroh said:
Assuming OnLive works, it suffers the same problems I have with Steam: I don't own the game, even though I buy it.

Am I renting the game or buying it? If I'm buying it, can I sell it? Can I let a buddy borrow it and try it out? Can I get my money back if it turns out to be a dud? Do I have to pay a monthly fee to access all games, or only some of them? What if OnLive dies...do I lose all of my information and games that I've payed for?

There are too many problems I have with online only distribution for me to agree to it.

EDIT: Piracy is the excuse when all they truely want to do is end the aftermarket of video games...
I believe, and I'm having trouble finding the article or I'd link it (if someone else knows where it is I'd appreciate the help), they mentioned on one of the articles that when you purchase the game you'd retain the right to "sell" it by transferring all the relative information to the buyer and then it deletes your access to the game. And as far as losing all your information, I'm sure its going to be the same as any on-line game, where they keep two or three back-up servers that they update the information too but are otherwise completely unconnected to the other servers as a fail-safe. Monthly fees, that sort of thing would probably be determined on a game by game basis by the game publisher (similar to how playstation has no on-line playing fees but microsoft does). As for a "physical" copy, that's an issue that individuals would have to deal with. I have no problem not physically having a Super-Mario Brothers 3 cartridge as long as I can actually play it on my Wii after buying it from them. I don't see why this would be much different.
Of course, that is all just speculation, as a working OnLive server does not yet exist.
 

Rec-RoomNinja

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Arbre said:
And DRMs do work to some degree. Otherwise piracy would be even worse, no?
Obviously, the easier the piracy, the more there is, and the more tempting it is.
It's almost a principle.
Not really, no.
As stated in the article, you only need one person to crack the game, everything else is just filesharing. The strength of the DRM only slows down ONE person, not the whole field.

On a side note, I think the most effective anti-piracy technique I can think of is from the old games where you had to look up words in the manual. Yeah, you could download the manual (if you could find one with page numbers), or a list of codes, but you couldn't remove it without taking the game code apart. If the game is never dismantled, it's just as frustrating (or more if you don't have the codes printed out) for pirates as it is for the customer.
 

Brotherofwill

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Nice article, been thinking the same thing for a long time.

My solution to it would be building up costumer relations through press and goodies. Make nicer manuals, include little add-ons to the cds, trust your costumers for once. Don't think many people would consider pirating against a company that they have respect for.

I think we might very likely be moving to closing or atleast more regulated systems. One day there will be a day when we caan tell our kids:
"Back in the day one could download free data without any kind of governement or software control"

Let's hope that day is far away and that the freedom of computers will be a hard fought battle.

Arbre said:
And DRMs do work to some degree. Otherwise piracy would be even worse, no?
Obviously, the easier the piracy, the more there is, and the more tempting it is.
It's almost a principle.
That's exactly how it doesn't work, that pretty much was the whole point of the article. Maybe you should re-read it.
 

Halbert

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Shamus, perhaps your next article should be your suggestions to companies for reducing/limiting piracy.
 

darkjad

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Halbert said:
Shamus, perhaps your next article should be your suggestions to companies for reducing/limiting piracy.
Actually, he already did on his blog, and I agree 10000% with his suggestions. Here's the link to his blog post on it (which I'll quickly summarize below for the lazy among us): http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1558


First of all, pirates currently provide a better product than the actual company, in many ways. No irritating checks to go through, pirates can install their games on as many PCs as they want, etc. Stop this; don't let the cracked version actually be better.

Second, companies should build a community for their fans, and get their fans closer to the company. In general people don't steal nearly as often from people they know.

Third, Shamus suggests offering a demo. His logic is that this will let people try and perhaps purchase the game. In general though, I personally have to disagree with this suggestion; every developer (that I can remember) who has ever released a demo and then commented on it in the future noted that demos lower sales. I doubt they'll lower sales for extraordinary games, but everything other than those you'll probably convert more nitpickers away from purchasing than unsure people who might otherwise impulse-buy it.
Again though, this is going off of some stats that I read but can't remember, and Seamus's logic is otherwise sound.

Easy updates, lots of free content.

And finally, and this is huge, don't let them get cracked before release. Find out who is doing that and stop them.