The issue of "Mens Rights"
- Thread starter Vault101
- Start date
Oh, and wars.RedEyesBlackGamer said:You forgot custody cases. Men really get the shaft there too.The_root_of_all_evil said:RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Please don't make statements like that. It upsets me.
And the Jewish.
And the Irish.
And the Welsh.
And the Scottish.
And the Polish.
And the victims of serial killers.
And Haemophilia, Heart Disease, Prostate Cancer, Autism, Colourblindness, media images, Alcoholism, Homeless numbers, Positive Racism, Still getting shafted from up high...
So, the western male has quite a lot to legitimately complain about.
How about we acknowledge that people have problems and work from there, instead of deciding which group is more needy based on tropes, rather than physical evidence?
You know, if we want to solve these problems instead of just shifting the scapegoats?
Women definitely DO have rights that men just don't have. Not legally, but still...
A good example is being sexually open/sexually forward. Women can easily ask men back to their place in a wide variety of ways and situations and be simply seen as quirky, outgoing, and desirable, whereas if men do the same thing they apear to be predatory jerks.
I'm sure there are still several problems on the other side of the scale, and I definitely think we're a lot closer than we used to be to equality. However, we won't be truly equal until the day when a white, drunk man can smack a similarly drunk black woman at a bar with no less, and no more, consequences than if he'd just hit another white dude. That's what equality means, but would you bet against the racism or the sexism card being played?
I'm not really sure we'll ever make it there, to be honest. It's sure a hell of a lot better than it used to be, though.
A good example is being sexually open/sexually forward. Women can easily ask men back to their place in a wide variety of ways and situations and be simply seen as quirky, outgoing, and desirable, whereas if men do the same thing they apear to be predatory jerks.
I'm sure there are still several problems on the other side of the scale, and I definitely think we're a lot closer than we used to be to equality. However, we won't be truly equal until the day when a white, drunk man can smack a similarly drunk black woman at a bar with no less, and no more, consequences than if he'd just hit another white dude. That's what equality means, but would you bet against the racism or the sexism card being played?
I'm not really sure we'll ever make it there, to be honest. It's sure a hell of a lot better than it used to be, though.
Because attraction is something that happens on a very primal level. Its almost non-rational.CaptainKarma said:
Imagine being given a list of reasons why a particular man would be a good mate... wealthy, good genes, trustworthy, similar interests etc. Your rational mind would agree that he was a good mate, but you wouldn't exactly be horny for him.
Compare that to meeting a badass. Perhaps he has no qualities that make him a good mate (poor, unreliable, etc.), but most girls will be turned on by him. But you just know that if this guy lived 5000 years ago, he would be the one killing the lions.
From personal experience, the interactions and relationships that have gone best for me, have been the ones where I have been in control*, when I have made the plans and followed through with them. Women respond to confidence.
On the socialised point, I would say for me, its actually been the opposite. Connecting with my masculinity was something that I had to learn, having spent the majority of my life being pretty nervous around girls.
*in control as distinct from being controlling. Being in control comes from confidence, being controlling comes from insecurity.
If I can play devil's advocate here for just a second, maybe Andy would've noticed her disclaimer if her writing skills were at least on par with a Middle School education. I'm just saying. Seriously Vault101. I'm sorry, but it's just bugging me way too much to ignore. I mean, I got the gist of your post and everything, but people will take you a lot more seriously if you would type like I do. Would it kill you to at least capitalize when you're supposed to? Pretty please? For me?Mortai Gravesend said:
Anyway, the worst kind of inequality is directed towards women, such as the matter of unbalanced wages. But there are some ways that our society is unfair to men as well. Generally when a man and a woman commit the same exact crime, the woman will get the lesser punishment. This is a proven fact. And at least in my country, it's legal for a woman to urinate in public, but if a man does it, that's "indecent exposure" and the law can declare him a sex offender.
One thing (among other things) that generally creates the "extreme" impression is where the gender-specific rights group appears to place the blame. Feminism is a great thing, but there are a lot of negative stereotypes about it, and that's because sometimes individual feminists will blame men for everything that's wrong. I'm sure we've all heard quotes like "If women ruled, there would be no war." or "I enjoy the thought of kicking a man in the balls." (That second one isn't as common, but I've certainly overheard it a fair amount of times.)
A few individuals (and even a few organizations) who preach things like this, are giving feminism a bad name. As a result, some men are scared because they're lead to believe that all feminism is like that. Some feminist groups who really are trying to restrict individual rights, such as the right to total free speech [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equality_Now#Recent_campaigns], (look at the second entry in that list) aren't helping feminism's reputation either.
So, are there ways in which men suffer unequally? Yes. Are there some feminist groups who are a threat to individual rights and want preferential treatment for themselves? Yes, and somebody really ought to start worrying about them. But that doesn't excuse groups like the one Vault101 linked to. There is a need for a "Man's Rights" advocate, but not one that puts all the blame on women or feminism as a whole, and definitely not one that wants to put women back in the kitchen. A lot of feminists just want women to be equal wherever they currently aren't, and a lot of male advocates just want men to be equal wherever they currently aren't, and that's the goal these groups should operate under.
Imagine for a moment you are living in renisanse Italy. You are trying to paint your picture of the ideal woman. If she is anything but, white, pale skinned, and slightly chubby then you are clearly not a renisanse painter. If however you paint a picture of a blonde, slightly tan, thin woman with large breasts then you a clearly a product of 21st century western culture.the Dept of Science said:
In short, socialization has everything to fucking do with who you find attractive. It's logic that is left to the wayside. Your understanding of human sexuality is flawed.
Feminists-"Men always get better jobs!"
Masculinists (?)- "Women are getting away with murder because they're on their period!"
Neither of these are really true, and I really think extreme gender rights advocates do more harm to their cause then good.
ALSO it should be pointed out, from a global standpoint, women do have fewer rights than men in many places.
Masculinists (?)- "Women are getting away with murder because they're on their period!"
Neither of these are really true, and I really think extreme gender rights advocates do more harm to their cause then good.
ALSO it should be pointed out, from a global standpoint, women do have fewer rights than men in many places.
The extremists of both sexes tend to be a little crazy and generally speaking, I don't agree with any of them. People need to learn what equality means.
Generally speaking if you want to be treated equal, sure, I'm ok with that. But the moment you start demanding to be treated better is the moment I tell you to fuck off.
And as far as the discriminating against males thing goes, I will say one thing.
There are cases in which people seem to over compensate for their fear of gender discrimination by treating woman far better than men. I can't find the example I saw some time ago, but basically this guy did something that his girlfriend didn't like, she started to assault him while he did nothing but defend himself. I guarantee you that there are people who would say "well he probably deserved it". Wait...WHAT!? If a man said that about a woman, you would want his head on a pike, so because it's a woman who beat the guy, it's ok?
Gender equality != being treated better.
Generally speaking if you want to be treated equal, sure, I'm ok with that. But the moment you start demanding to be treated better is the moment I tell you to fuck off.
And as far as the discriminating against males thing goes, I will say one thing.
There are cases in which people seem to over compensate for their fear of gender discrimination by treating woman far better than men. I can't find the example I saw some time ago, but basically this guy did something that his girlfriend didn't like, she started to assault him while he did nothing but defend himself. I guarantee you that there are people who would say "well he probably deserved it". Wait...WHAT!? If a man said that about a woman, you would want his head on a pike, so because it's a woman who beat the guy, it's ok?
Gender equality != being treated better.
Actually, the prize of manhood is far greater than most people seem to be aware of.RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Did you know, that despite men not having to deal with the complications of child-bearing, women tend to live much longer than men? Now, this statistic is kind of confusing, after all the biological hazards of being a woman (child-birth and such) should make it so that men eke out a little longer. But yet, women live longer.
And it doesn't stop there. Men are also the overwhelming majority when it comes to institutionalization, whether its due to mental deterioration, alcoholism, drug abuse or whatever. According to statistics, women are much, much healthier mentally AND physically.
Now, the prevalent explanation for this is that men are taught to suppress emotions rather than deal with them. Women have a much stronger sense of personal connection with their friends and have the habit of dealing with psychological issues in a much healthier way than men do. Being a man means doing risky and sometimes just outright dangerous things, a lot of what constitutes "manliness" are habits that will wear you down, both mentally and physically.
Being a man is not all fun and games. There's a great deal of hazards that follow it, and it is something that shouldn't be ignored by ANYONE. We will never overcome this disproportional mortality-issue if we continue to ridicule any attempts at bringing this to light, this goes for both men and women.
Except it is true. My statement is simply that "this happens." I wasn't aware that I'd made "happens every time, on a global scale" was a criteria. I mean, the oppression of minorities and women certainly is not happening "on a national scale" in America, in and of itself -- it's just that instances of it receive national attention, whereas injustices toward people (who happen to be white males) are not given attention.Kaulen Fuhs said:
It's clear and obvious that a white male will be accused of racism and/or sexism far faster than a minority or a woman. There are even groups that insist only white males are capable of racism/sexism.
Now, see, people will say, "All you have is anecdotal evidence, which builds a weak case." And that's exactly the problem. Victims of these injustices can't build a case in the public record because they are ignored. Because some other white guy got rich somewhere and had power, it means that this white guy needs to shut up about his "problem."
Not to go all Godwin on this, but the way white males are judged because some old guys in power happen to also have light skin and a penis... well, it would be like treating every man with a mustache as though he were a Hitler fan.
This is stupid. The point of the feminist movement is to work towards equal rights for both men and women. If you believe there are areas where they are still unequal and think it needs to be rectified, even if women are being favoured, you're a feminist. Feminism is about equal rights and equal opportunity for both genders and freedom from stereotypes or the pressures of gender roles. This is just a backlash from people who don't understand what feminism is and are merely responding instinctively to the name as if it is working in favour of one gender over another.