The Last of Us "Squeezes Every Last Drop of Power" From PS3

Korten12

Now I want ma...!
Aug 26, 2009
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
You're not talking about innovation. You're talking about shortcuts. The problem is, those shortcuts can and do negatively impact on gameplay. Reducing the FOV players have in an FPS drastically reduces their ability to accurately respond and shoot at what's going on around them. Removing dual-wielding in Halo 4 reduces the options players have to improvise different weapon setups like they could in Halo 2 and 3.

Bungie removed dual-wielding from Reach and 343i from Halo 4 because it's a ***** to balance. They have both stated it that it's better to have one good weapon then a weapon that is nigh worthless without dual wielding. The pistol was amazing alone in Halo 1 but when they added dual wielding to Halo 2 the pistol was pointless to use if you didn't have another gun. Or in some cases where the Needler was so powerful alone and broken together.
 

gorfias

Unrealistic but happy
Legacy
May 13, 2009
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BloodSquirrel said:
Only the backgrounds in the extreme distance, to the point where they would look static even if they were actually being rendered at that distance. There's plenty of real geometry being rendered, to the point where most game's real geometry could comfortably fit inside of it.

Also, the game actually makes backgrounds look *distant*, which is not something most games really do a good job of.
So there were rain effects, for instance? I recall a video where someone was showing the flaws in the environments, and, for instance, you could shoot a tree and I don't think it even got marked up.

Still, again, Halo 4, from what I saw, was an amazing achievement on 7 year old technology.

anthony87 said:
It'd be nice if we could get a console related thread that didn't have PC fans coming along harping on about how their PC's were doing such and such X number of years ago....
For me, if you are going to boast what your game is going to look like, you really have to offer something new. When this gen came out, a normal PC owner couldn't match what they were doing. My hope is, PS4 and 720 will outdo anything our PCs are doing and once again, offer us something new.
 

Wargamer

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Apr 2, 2008
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It's got to be said now. I didn't want to, but listening to half a page of smart-arse comments from the Master Race has forced my hand.

PC gaming is shit. End of.

And before you try to attack my gaming pedigree, I cut my teeth playing Chocs Away and Alien Invasion (Space Invaders on steroids) on an Archimedes; a computer most of you have likely never heard of. I rocked my way through Ascendancy, Total Annihilation, Red Alert, Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries and more besides. I've sunk eight years on and off into MMORPGs. I've currently got Starcraft 2, Minecraft half the Total War franchise, Blood Bowl and Space Marine ready to play via desktop icons.

And I still say it's shit. The control system is flat-out TERRIBLE for shooters or combat games or platformers. RTS games only get a pass because these days they are so fucking convoluted they're barely playable WITH 50+ buttons, nevermind twelve and a pair of joysticks. I won't even go into the hardware issues - my PC's specs should be able to run Space Marine on top spec no problem, yet even with everything set to minimum I get terrible spikes of latency. No such problem on the PS3.

PCs will NEVER be as good for gaming as consoles will.
 

Proverbial Jon

Not evil, just mildly malevolent
Nov 10, 2009
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I never understood this whole culture of wanting the next instalment to look and perform significantly better. Sure I guess you want to have pride in your work and do the absolute best you can... but if Naughty Dog's subsequent games all remained at the same level as Uncharted 3, I would be quite happy! Their visuals and animation is leagues apart from most other triple A devs.
 

BrotherRool

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Denamic said:
viranimus said:
Heres the thing. Development wise... THIS is the point where developers LEARN. If you have pushed a system to its conceivable limits, you then have to come up with innovation that allows you to work around those limitations in hardware. Thats where true innovation will originate.
You don't really work around hardware limitations. They're hard caps; you can't get around them without new hardware.
What you CAN do is use 'tricks' to lower the hardware power necessary to render shit by not actually rendering the real thing. Such as not rendering off-screen objects more aggressively and avoid reflective surfaces, cleverly replacing objects with very low poly count LOD models, or even 2D sprites, and vice versa, cutting shaders and relying on clever lighting and texture work to hide it, etc. What they mean is that they've mastered using all these tricks to the utmost. There's nothing else they can do to make it look any better.
The whole existence of computer programming is about working around hardware limitations. If we didn't compress films, we'd max out a blu-ray disk before we actually got past the DVD menu. Thats how good we are at working round hardware limitations.

That#s not an exaggeration either, every single frame of a film is 144mb uncompressed, 8GB per minute.

And it's not like we're even close to pushing the boundaries of how much we can work around hardware limitation. P=NP is one of the millenium maths problems, and if it turns out to be true and is solved, then potentially we have the ability to absolutely slash the amount of processing power needed to do anything. Decision maths and linear optimisation are very very young maths subjects, several 1000 years younger than some forms and we're finding new optimisation algorithms all the time. The more we work on that the better and better we can get round these limitations.

We've come unbelievably far, if we didn't do the work we had done, we could have nothing like the games we make now, but there's much exciting possibilities out there for further advancement. I mean look at what ID can make run on a smartphone, the industry wasn't even close to that kind of skill level.

...at the same time, whilst we can get much better at optimisation I would agree that you'd have to expend a lot more effort for less return than just giving us new hardware would. The post you were responding to makes it sound like developers were just being lazy (and okay, maybe Bethseda are a bit lazy on the tech front. Apparently in Oblivion, each blade of grass had 28 polygons, when really you needed only 4,8 tops) which isn't true.
 

weirdee

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Apr 11, 2011
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Hammeroj said:
some factors:

- It takes roughly an entire cycle, as the devs have stated, to master a system's capabilities and nuances in order to utilize them to the full potential. Then that knowledge gets tossed out of the door for the new system, so that they have to learn it all over again. The knowledge goes largely wasted. You would think it would carry over, but then, somehow, somebody screwed up the Silent Hill collection. Hmmmm.

(yes, i realize that there are a number of factors involved with the mess up, but even if they had to build that thing FROM SCRATCH you would think, hey, maybe it would be relatively simple to rebuild a game where you already know how everything happened, right? i mean, just going by that logic...)

- During this period of learning, the new system is underutilized, mismanaged, or in many cases involving the PS3, outright inferior to an older system in some ways simply due to certain hardware changes/decisions that cause more complications than they're worth. In addition, with each scaling up of complexity, the cost of developing the same amount of content, while matching the higher level of graphical (and in some cases, audio) fidelity, increases dramatically for the developer, which leads to games like Skyrim, which feels more empty than Oblivion, since sacrifices have to be made in other areas to accommodate for theses costs and resource development time. In the worst case scenarios for triple A games, as the stakes grow higher and the development scales ever much larger, there is more room for error, less room for innovation, and more pressure to deliver, which then leads to companies resorting to more devious pay schemes in order to feed them, for an experience that may not necessarily be better, or even worse off than before. Then everybody ends up angry or unhappy and wonders where the fun went or why we have to keep paying more for stuff we don't want or need.

- Consoles, due to having to stick to a price point, are ALREADY behind when they're new, so pushing for a new console hasn't significantly improved the gameplay to the point where the "pc master race" hasn't already been there, doing it better. A console's strength is not the sheer graphical power or how many hardware specs you can rattle off a sheet, but the accessibility, and the common platform which allows devs to aim for a specific set of parameters freeing them up to play in the safety of this sandbox. This is weakened by a smaller cycle. Smaller cycles mean that consumers must pay more often, companies have to pay for more new systems (as they foot a large part of the bill to produce and distribute them!), and these systems have to establish themselves as a legitimate platform before market development sets in place long enough to make money, during which time everybody hemorrhages lots of money for development and low initial sales compounded by easily possible launch hiccups. In the meanwhile, devs are pressured to come up with quality content that fits the platform's capabilities within a time span that people don't consider "too late", which given all of our previous experience, never happens and those titles get pushed back. Early launch games consist of either tech demos or things that were ported over or otherwise easy to make with pre-existing assets. The exceptions are games that Nintendo purposely develops alongside the hardware deep in their fortress of solitude, and since they pushed up their development cycle to cut off the other two at the pass, even those games ended up later in the release, or as they were before that happened, exactly where they were going to be to begin with.

- In the past, while games were limited by their hardware, it did not actually stop them from being great, or fun. In particular, during the 32-bit era, the games market just exploded in creativity and charm. Japanese games are especially famous for making insane games possible on these systems that seem primitive compared to the capabilities we have now, but there has not been significant progress since that time which has matched that amount of work to game experience (if we include the time spent on the PS1/2 where they simply expanded on that work, while not necessarily utilizing much more of the added features). The plaintiff calls to the court one Square Enix (which during this time was not merged), which since turning over their development towards the graphical side of things, has not produced a Final Fantasy game quite like the sixth one, which is so long and epic and does so many different things that work together that you have to wonder what the hell happened to them after that.

now, it wasn't always like this, i believe two primary factors contributing to this is that a lot of pc developers moved to consoles to chase money and ended up trying to make the consoles conform to pc standards with...mixed results, and as the environment grew increasingly corporate, the corporate influences tainted the development cycle and pushed towards profits instead of quality
 

weirdee

Swamp Weather Balloon Gas
Apr 11, 2011
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Hammeroj said:
the point i was trying to make (which gets muddled often, i admit) was that bigger consoles are usually an OBLIGATION to hit the deep end of the pool in order to demonstrate the capabilities and validate the presence of the hardware

sure, they don't HAVE to theoretically

but usually somebody's pressuring them to do so (unless it's like, a niche game which somehow has full control of the project direction) even if it's not always the best idea for every game

anyway, if previous console experience isn't totally wasted on new consoles, why do we see a large bunch of failures to transition with each new cycle? shouldn't people who were totally good with the previous cycle have less trouble adapting?

on a side note, i meant that game costs are increasing for EVERYBODY, not just "poor consumers" because games actually cost more these days because what would have been included with the main game is being appropriated to DLC and online components are now being charged for, but for developers whose overhead continues to rise as the high end is being pushed, in addition to whatever executives are doing to fatten the bottom line without considering how it would detract from the experience

should a studio die when they don't absolutely succeed on their first game?

anyway, our games might have more visual capabilities but i'm not sure if they've improved enough to increase the costs as they have been doing for the last few years, nor has their length of quality gameplay changed that much, if not gotten shorter without tightening the experience in any way (save for multiplayer games, which frankly are hit or miss)

if we look at the recent games that have truly been great experiences, how many of them actually NEEDED the full capabilities?
 

Theminimanx

Positively Insane
Mar 14, 2011
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Naughty Dog said:
"I think Uncharted 1 used maybe 30 percent efficiency.Okay, so we're talking about efficency here. Uncharted 2 we were finally using 100 percent I assume we're still talking about efficency here, right guys? but it wasn't as efficient as it could be. Huh, isn't 100 percent as high as it can be? Then, Uncharted 3 we got way more efficient,"
Nitpicking aside, congratulations, you've maxed out a console that's more than 6 years old. Now go ask Sony for a console with more RAM, so we can have bigger and more open levels. Or, you know, just start developing for pc.