My only thought is this: breaking traditional gender stereotypes is not "good." It is not "bad." It might be sought after by some people, and they might have good reasons. But it is neither good nor bad. Because the stereotypes that are being broken are "traditional," one might find it "refreshing." But claiming it to be "good" or "bad" is just setting yourself up for an argument from multiple directions.
The Man with Boobs Trope
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The only time I've seen that phrase or something similar used as a criticism is a passing mention in an Anita Sarkeesian video, accompanied with an image of Kara Thrace ('Starbuck') from Battlestar Galactica.
I might have seen it used once or twice as a criticism of Mass Effect. ("Femshep shouldn't count as a female character/protagonist since she's exactly the same as dudeshep, just a different character model and voice".)
I'm honestly never sure what to make of it. It's often viewed as a by-product of men writing female character and making them, either intentionally or otherwise, pleasing to themselves and other men. So you end up with either a 'perfect girlfriend' character or an idealised male who just happens to actually be female. Or possibly a lesbian.
(Funnily enough, I've heard the inverse said of males in female-focussed media. "They're just like chicks except with dicks.")
I'm not really sure how one avoids that sort of thing when making an aggressive, physically adept or combative female character Those are things traditionally associated with males. I mean, I'm a guy and if I were to trying writing (which I occasionally do) and were to include such a character (which I also do) then I can totally see her turning out like that.
I'd be curious to hear examples of it being done right and done wrong for the purposes of contrast.
If it seems like I'm rambling here it's because I totally am. I don't really have any well-formed thoughts on the matter.
I might have seen it used once or twice as a criticism of Mass Effect. ("Femshep shouldn't count as a female character/protagonist since she's exactly the same as dudeshep, just a different character model and voice".)
I'm honestly never sure what to make of it. It's often viewed as a by-product of men writing female character and making them, either intentionally or otherwise, pleasing to themselves and other men. So you end up with either a 'perfect girlfriend' character or an idealised male who just happens to actually be female. Or possibly a lesbian.
(Funnily enough, I've heard the inverse said of males in female-focussed media. "They're just like chicks except with dicks.")
I'm not really sure how one avoids that sort of thing when making an aggressive, physically adept or combative female character Those are things traditionally associated with males. I mean, I'm a guy and if I were to trying writing (which I occasionally do) and were to include such a character (which I also do) then I can totally see her turning out like that.
I'd be curious to hear examples of it being done right and done wrong for the purposes of contrast.
If it seems like I'm rambling here it's because I totally am. I don't really have any well-formed thoughts on the matter.
I imagine this is like that thing where a girl is totally a bro and does guy stuff because isn't that what guys want? A person who is totally cool and your friend and into the same things and also its ok to have sex with them?
It's a small line, but I can see there is a difference between a female who has traits that are more assumed with masculinity (gruff seriousness, tough exterior, ect) and a female who is just a really a dude because your writer(s)don't really know how to write a personality that isn't immersed in masculine stuff.
Other the the wish fulfillment fantasy I opened with, I don't think it's that harmful or anything. More lazy and careless probably. It might make some people think it's ok to write the shallow 1-dimensional character type we've all seen before, but it's a lady so it's now awesome and progressive.
And one thing I hate is people using good progressive ideas to peddle mediocre product.
It's a small line, but I can see there is a difference between a female who has traits that are more assumed with masculinity (gruff seriousness, tough exterior, ect) and a female who is just a really a dude because your writer(s)don't really know how to write a personality that isn't immersed in masculine stuff.
Other the the wish fulfillment fantasy I opened with, I don't think it's that harmful or anything. More lazy and careless probably. It might make some people think it's ok to write the shallow 1-dimensional character type we've all seen before, but it's a lady so it's now awesome and progressive.
And one thing I hate is people using good progressive ideas to peddle mediocre product.
Anita Sarkeesian. She actually did complain about the men with boobs concept:Zachary Amaranth said:
"Not only are these games dominated by male characters but even the few women characters who do get staring roles are often made to replicate overly patriarchal, violent, macho behavior (but inside of a hyper sexualized female body). Not surprisingly the vast majority of game producers, designers and writers in the industry are still men.
To put it simply, there are just too many dicks on the dance floor!"
Apparently a woman displaying certain traits is just the same as a man. (which is quite ironic considering afterwards she's trying to convince us men and women are the same... Oh the backpedaling)
I have never once heard it leveled against an actual character. I have only heard it used in hypothetical situations, like when discussing the possibility of a female Link ("A female Link would just be male Link with boobs! So you're a hypocrite if you want one! Score one for me!").Phasmal said:
Hark, to Google!
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12971205520A16140100&page=0
Few seconds of googling 'men with boobs' lead to a tvtropes discussion about it.
So it's not unheard of. That said, I think the idea of the trope is pretty much just people over-noticing that some of the better written female characters tend to be non-"lady-like". However, if it ever was an actual problem(which I don't believe), it's becoming increasingly less a thing as people put even more effort into writing diverse characters, especially female ones.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12971205520A16140100&page=0
Few seconds of googling 'men with boobs' lead to a tvtropes discussion about it.
So it's not unheard of. That said, I think the idea of the trope is pretty much just people over-noticing that some of the better written female characters tend to be non-"lady-like". However, if it ever was an actual problem(which I don't believe), it's becoming increasingly less a thing as people put even more effort into writing diverse characters, especially female ones.
The problem is that our cultural norms dictate that men are superior to women, and by extension that male traits are superior to female ones.
This comes to a head in the man with boobs-trope in that, the only way for a female character to establish authority is to emulate those male traits, she's a strong female character, an example of a good human being only if she stops being a woman, if she embodies solely male traits. This character will often diminish any "real" women in the story and their traits and interests, which makes the man with boobs-trope highly problematic from a feminist perspective.
This comes to a head in the man with boobs-trope in that, the only way for a female character to establish authority is to emulate those male traits, she's a strong female character, an example of a good human being only if she stops being a woman, if she embodies solely male traits. This character will often diminish any "real" women in the story and their traits and interests, which makes the man with boobs-trope highly problematic from a feminist perspective.
Way to water down nuanced topics together to fit your point.generals3 said:
She's referring to that thing I was saying. The inability to write something that isn't masculine violent hargle barglea and slapping a women skin on it and pretending that makes it better than the man skin. It's lazy and it's not as inclusive as one might think.
So "To put it simply, there are just too many dicks on the dance floor!" was just a brainfart? Nono, it's quite simply a complaint about the men with tits concept. Well actually it's that mixed with a general complaint about the violence-centric mechanics of many games.Supdupadog said:
And your last phrase pretty much confirms what i said. It is only not as inclusive if we're relating this to the "men with tits" complaint. If "men with tits" wasn't an issue than it would be quite inclusive. At least on a "genital on the dancefloor" level.
I imagine if the societal constructs we have didn't exist then a lot of stuff would be more inclusive. Or maybe we wouldn't be having discussions like this at all.generals3 said:
It's a hard kind of society to imagine honestly.
I agree on that last point, playing through FF13-3 recently there's a bit in one of the story missions where Lightning has to get a fancy dress to infiltrate this palace - the dress actually gives some pretty useful fire-based abilities, but even after the mission I kept it equipped purely because Lightning looked really elegant and beautiful in it, and I liked the idea of the Saviour running around fighting monsters while looking like she should be at a masquerade ballVegosiux said:
M-hmm. First time I hear about that reference.Phasmal said:
I'll hand in my geek badge now, I suppose.
PS: This is why you shouldn't make jokes if you consider yourself "academic". Some people might have not heard it before and will take you literally. But it's their own fault, right!!!
I don't really recall any good examples of this trope. I know people attempted to use it to describe Lara Croft. I think my main issue with it is that it defines certain traits as being the purview of males exclusively. These traits are always given a negative connotation in subsequent analysis (violent, abrasive, greedy, proud and so on).
The root of the problem is supposedly poor writing but I actually think it boils down to the motivations of these characters not being feminine enough in some people's view. In my view, no trait should be designated masculine or feminine. Of course, there are traditional contexts that designate traits as such but I don't think that means we should aspire to write characters that way. You can certainly write a strong female character that is decidedly feminine but the mere existence of traditional male traits in her person should not ever be seen as a negative. Especially if she is written well otherwise.
The root of the problem is supposedly poor writing but I actually think it boils down to the motivations of these characters not being feminine enough in some people's view. In my view, no trait should be designated masculine or feminine. Of course, there are traditional contexts that designate traits as such but I don't think that means we should aspire to write characters that way. You can certainly write a strong female character that is decidedly feminine but the mere existence of traditional male traits in her person should not ever be seen as a negative. Especially if she is written well otherwise.
I believe the term is applied to cases where they literally take a male character and make them female without any thoughts of how that'd change their attitudes, body language, inter-personal dynamics or really anything at all besides a switch to have female physical options (which includes boobs). The reason why FemShep is referred to as such is because she uses male animations and has little change is interpersonal interactions. But, I'm not saying that FemShep is a bad female character, her masculinity is part of her character just as much as her awkward dance moves, but it wasn't a choice, it was laziness. Compare and contrast that to how that effects the Female Warden, she is far more believable because her gender effects how the world sees her, with Sten being confused about her role as a warrior (not the class), with people being surprised with her joining the wardens, and with how people see you and react to you. In Mass Effect there is a lot less of that, though some of it can be explained away by the reduction of prejudice in the world, a lot of it is based off of sheer laziness, especially shown with the existence and role of the Asari, if Shepard wasn't intended to be primarily male there wouldn't of been nearly as much Asari in strip clubs and working as prostitutes (hell when Mass Effect 1 opens up you meet and great Sha'ira, who is a prostitute who even employs female humans).
But the million dollar question is, if men and women are the same, why'd those changes occur at all...? Isn't saying that some sort of admission that there indeed are differences between men and women?Notshauna said:
That's a can o' worms so many people are trying really hard to keep closed.
So, what is it? "Anything a man can do, a woman can do better" or "We acknowledge and celebrate the differences"?
That doesn't seem very extreme, though.Lieju said:
I mean, maybe extreme by Thunderf00t standards, but not by anyone grounded.
The last one. But, such differences are societal, so in theory in a gender role-less society such things wouldn't exist, but Mass Effect is certainly not such a world as such a world is so different than our own to be completely beyond imagination.Vegosiux said: